Tookie Williams

“I thought this case deserved it's own thread.

I've been on the fence about this case. The fact he denied guilt bothered me, but then I read some un-convincing, but still concerning stuff that said he was shafted. I'm off the fence now. I think if this guy really was a redeemed man - dedicated to spreading the anti-gang message - he would have used the publicity around his execution and the appeal to spread that message. I would have especially expected that after Arnold denied commutation. I don't know everything he said to reporters or others in the short time after his commutation was denied, but I noticed that he chose not to make a final statement and nothing I've heard him quoted as saying indicates that he was highly concerned about making sure young people choose the right path. For me, there are a lot of pros and cons, and this may not be the most important - but it tipped the balance for me. I think Govenor Arnold did the right thing.

I'm not philosophically opposed to the death penalty. I think its OK for society to decide that under some circumstances killing other people puts you beyond the rights and protections society offers. I also have no enthusiasm for the death penalty and think it 's administration is deeply flawed and in need of reform. The race of the victim greatly influences the penalty for murder - but in Williams case, his victims were Asian and black - not White.”

“One thing they aren’t saying is how the 9th Circuit court of appeals turned his case down and the Supreme Court TWICE. If you can’t get it in the 9th, you aint getting’ it.

And we hear so much about him. What about the victims? (WARNING: brutally graphic link.”

“Ped, the gas station clerk he killed was white.

Just a clarification.
last edited: 12/13/05 9:00:19 AM”

“I'll give Ahnold some props for sticking to his convictions.”

“HPM, they were Asian. (correction, one was white.)
last edited: 12/13/05 9:04:39 AM”

“*Edit* yep.

There were two crime scenes.

Albert Owens at the first crime was white.

Williams also said he killed Owens "because he was white and he was killing all white people."

The second set of Murders were the Asian folks.

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie2.htm
last edited: 12/13/05 9:09:02 AM”

“Did you see my correction above?

I'm wondering how many people have died from Tookie's efforts in forming the Crips?”

“I do think the whole capitol punishment system is a money pit and I tend to sit on the fence anymore about it.”

“Yep I edited too.
It's that 'ol cross posting thing again.”

“HPM: Thanks. I stand corrected. I thought I heard someone on the conservative talk show I listen to sometimes in the car say that the fourth victim was black. Either I heard wrong, or they were wrong - but either way, I failed to double check.”

“I still think Arnold made the right choice, but have now taken a half step back towards the fence.”

“"I thought I heard someone on the conservative talk show I listen to sometimes in the car say that the fourth victim was black."

OK, I gotta know, who? Savage?”

“Definitely not Savage, he's not on the channel I listen to. I'm thinking it was the Laura Ingraham show. I don't want to bad mouth her or the station, because I could well have heard wrong (maybe heard about a black woman who held Williams responsible, but wasn't the mother of the clerk)

This is the conservative talk station I listen to: http://www.969fmtalk.com/programs.asp

Because of my commute times, I end up listening to Ingraham the most - because I get don't bored, but I also hear Hannity, Graham or O'Reilly. I've only seen a couple of promo pics, but she's cutie (I'm open to posted evidence that would require an upgrade to "hottie" status.”

“I have a 15-20 drive to work and check out Savage. More because he just rails on and on. He's a dult about most things and an ass to boot but very entertaining in a crazy way. The others are pretty much lock steppers.

now Larry Elders, THERE is a man of character and smarts.”

“I haven't heard him much. When I was in NH, I used to hear Dr. Laura all the time, and this British guy who was almost cultish. I wish I could remember his name.”

“Benny Hill?”

“LOL!

When you said that, I thought I remembered the name: Robin Masters? But when I googled the name, I came up with Magnum P.I. references

This is going to bug me until I remember his name. His format was more like Dr. Laura's - but he was pretty nutty.
last edited: 12/13/05 10:28:23 AM”

“Ped,
"I still think Arnold made the right choice, but have now taken a half step back towards the fence."
Is that because of the color of the victims' skin??? Is taking a black person's life, more deserving of the ultimate, harsh punishment, or is granting certain allowances the "liberal, white, New England, thing to do?"”

“i think what it boils down to is this:

would the world absolutely, without a doubt be a better place without tookie in it?

i believe the answer is no, due to his anti-gang work.

IMO he should have been spared death, and those who had to actually do the deed should have been spared the price of his death on their souls.”

“I missed most of this guy's story, but heard he brutally killed 4 people. Those are the only ones he got caught for. Who knows how many people are on his laundry list of dead people.

His redemption, Hello!!!! Every prisoner says he has redeemed himself. That is the oldest story in the book along with saying they found God. Give me a break! If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Then that @hole actor, Mike Farrell, that used to be on the tv show MASH is sticking up for him. Well, Mike Farrell won't find himself living next door to this guy if he had the chance to let's say get out of prison. He thinks the guy is doing good work in prison. Well, Hello!!! Again!!! Prisoners join programs just because they have nothing to do all day. Who is to say he has converted any criminal from a life of crime once they get out?????

This guy is still a murderer. Whitewashing it by saying he is leading a program to help gang bangers redeem themselves is ridiculous.”

“whether you believe that he's converted or just faking it LH, what's not debatable is that he has done a ton of anti-gang work in over the last few years. there are numerous kids who've said he inspired them to avoid that lifestyle.

that's what counts in my book. now i'm not saying he should be let out or even forgiven, but he was doing good things.”

“Rehabilitation is not the purpose of the death penalty. If you do rehabilitate yourself you admit what you did and die with a clear conscience.”

“i could care less about his personal rehab and redemption.

the world was better off the last few years with him in it, doing the work he was doing.

i believe the death penalty should only be used when all of society benefits with the person gone.
this was not the case.”

“sacco, don't worry, there are plenty of other gang bangers that can take over for him in jail. You're just falling for his con game where he just likes to be in a position of power and authority and that is probably the real reason he was heading this program and maybe getting some perks along the way to make life more comfortable for him during his "stay".

You actually believe what the gang bangers are saying that they are rehabilitated? You don't get your morals back from some lecture from a fellow low life. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but it's a good thing you don't work in a prison, because the prisoners would have you giving them candy bars or they'd have you doing their laundry.

You've lost sight of what he's done. Think about the families of the people he's murdered. I guess since he didn't kill anyone in your family, he's an okay guy.”

“P.S. - If starting a program to supposedly help other inmates redeem themselves was a way to get out of being executed, then they would all start programs and then they would really not give a damn about killing people. If the death penalty doesn't stop someone, a "program" certainly won't.”

“i don't think you're understanding my point LH.

did you maybe post that before reading my last post?

BTW, your last couple lines are pretty out of line for any real debate, but if you want to bring this to a typical fuego-style i could play that too...


EDIT: refering to your 2:00 post
last edited: 12/13/05 1:10:40 PM”

“Make work illegal--wages will soar.”

“What does redemption mean coming from a man that claims he was innocent in the first place? It was a big con job. In Texas you find religion when confronted with the death penalty, in California you find a publisher.

Game over Tookie.”

“Limpy - I took a half step back because one of the arguments advanced for arguing for commutation was that race bias might have been involved. I mistakenly rejected that argument on a false basis. In other words, my list of valid arguments on each side of the case shifted. The argument for bias is better than I thought, but it's not enough to change my mind on the whole picture.”

“sacco, if you mean my saying that you think his killing people is okay since a family member of yours was not killed, then what are you saying? It's okay or it's not okay? Not killing him says it's okay to kill people and as many as you like.

Would you really let him live if he killed your mom or dad or other relative? If you can say yes to that, then, fine, I would not debate you about that he should die, because you are against the death penalty no matter what a person does or how many people they kill or who they kill.

To kill or not to kill is always a fuego topic in a way. Taking a life is something that should not be done carelessly and some people do not want it done at all.”

“Dang Ped, I was baiting you and you didn't bite!”

“What is amazing to me is the same peeps that do not believe in death for killers being legal are perfectly happy with very late term abortions being legal.

One is quilty, and one is as innocent as one gets.”

“Stanley "Tookie" Williams was tried and convicted of the murders of four innocent people. His trial was just, it was fair, and his sentence was handed down. He never took responsibility for those murders, he denied it all the way to the death chamber. Evidence and witnesses absolutely pointed to the plain and clear fact that Mr. Williams was guilty as hell. Period. Now we have all of the human rights activists saying that his life should have been spared because he wrote a few childrens books and denounced gang violence. Absolutely ridiculous! Mr. Williams was served justice, and he paid the price for his heinous act of violence.”

“Rest in peace. The mistake shall not be repeated.
Cenotaph in Hiroshima”

“TK67 - You said just about exactly what I was about to post. Thanks :-)


I'm glad he wrote books which inspired some young people to avoid gang life. Should that be enough to spare his own? Not IMO. Even after his death, his books will still be available to inspire others.”

“He wouldnt have needed to write the books had he not been a part of starting the Crips for goodness sake. You want to set an example tookie, you just did. Gangs kill the innocent and the thug equally.”

“The books are known to glamorize gang life.”

“But, but, but....the world was a better palce with him in it!!!!”

“All you honkies are just a bunch of racists for killing such a fine upstanding man.”

“I know...I should feel guilty.”

“boy, i'm glad i don't profess to be much of a christian.”

“when do the riots begin?”

“Tookie's death was just a very late term abortion. I think more people should be aborted. I just wish it was as cheap to abort a criminal as it was a fetus. Too bad the death penalty cost more than life in prison.”

“Hey, isn't sacco white too? Or does he get off of the white guilt trip because he's a liberal?”

“Yea, what happened to the riots?
What did you get, Nigal?”

“I want to know why "Tookie" doesn't rhyme with "cookie."”

“I’m almost ashamed to admit it. I had the cart all full of MP3 players and I’m racing across the parking lot and I’m just about to make it free and clear when the wheels on the cart lock up. They have those auto-locks so you can’t take the carts more than X number of feet from the store. Well, I went ass over tea kettle and busted my forehead on the curb all Jackass style and I black out. I woke up three hours later in the back of a squad car naked with a billy club in my ass.








I think it was racially motivated.”

“That's OK Nigal, except unless you liked the billy club. ;-)

You tryed.”

“Hey, isn't sacco white too? Or does he get off of the white guilt trip because he's a liberal?”
Nigal
8:31:14 PM


wrong again ya kracker ass kracker.”

“It is typical white liberal media guilt racism to presume that black folk don't know a murdering scumbag gangster when they see one.

It is racist on the part of the elite media to presume that blacks would riot. Isn't this an example of what's called, "the soft racism of low expectations" that the left in general and the democrats in particular are so full of?

They expect criminal behavior by the city's blacks because they hold them to a lower standard of behavior than they do the rest of society. Same thing in New Orleans during Katrina.”