Strike? Or Not?

“yesterday I was looking for elderly people walking and asking if they needed a ride. no takers yet!

mapleleaf

They probably thought you were going to "let" them ride in one of those compartments in the back of the truck!”

“"on a funny note, three guys in a car got busted for putting a coat in the back seat and putting a baseball cap on it. LMAO hey they tried!! -Mapleleaf"


Off topic a bit...that reminds me of a story. Back in Connecticut outside of Hartford years ago they implemented the commuter lanes on the highway. The rule was that to use them you had to have at least two people in your vehicle. A woman was ticketed for using the lane while being the sole occupant of her car. She went to court to fight the ticket. Her rationale? She told the judge that she was pregnant and therefore met the 2-person rule. The judge's response was that in that case, he would charge her with operating a motor vehicle with two people behind the wheel. LOL”

“The union treasury will be empty in two days at $1,000,000 per day. And, if I heard correctly, the striking workers will be fined two days pay for each day of the strike. I wonder if they will be fined at overtime rates for the weekends and/or days 6 and 7 of the work week. I previously thought the Union would be charged for this.

Maybe the reason the parent union is not supporting the strike is to avoid the financial part. Non-publicly they could be in support of the strike. Who knows?”

“Dayum! And I thought it was tough loosing $130 for a day off!”

“oooooooooooh. Taxi cabs using zone fares in NYC. I feel for ya!”

“I like the way Treebeard has kept looking at the problem from both parties points of view. Much respect for him for keeping an open mind. Obviously, I'm not in NYC so this doesn't effect me personally, but I do have family there that is being effected. (No news on that front yet.)

First of all, I haven't researched this at all. Everything I've read is from this thread. So, of course, correct me if any of the facts are wrong.

The good commuters of NYC wound up giving the MTA (the company/department that manages transportation?) an extra billion dollars to play with. The TWU -- whose people provided the services that generated that billion dollar surplus -- hasn't been working under a contract (in 3 years?). Who should benefit from the surplus? The MTA? The TWU? (Or are the commuters paying too much for the services they receive? Should they receive a rebate, or a fare decrease?)

Now, what sort of pay adjustments have the TWU seen over these last years of working without a contract? No mention has been made, and I'm too lazy to look it up, so I'll stretch my neck out and make an ASSUMPTION that the TWU hasn't seen anything better than the original 5%/3yr deal that the MTA offered at the beginning of this thread. Doing the math, that comes to a 1.64% raise every year. Now, I don't know actual COLA numbers, but I think it's safe to say 1.64% is way under COLA, and therefore you're talking about an effective pay cut. (Just to throw out a number, Social Security benefits/payments saw a 4.1% COLA in 2005. http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/latestCOLA.html ) So, based on the ASSUMPTION above, the TWU needs to make up for taking pay cuts in the past.

Let's forgo the assumption now. The last offer mentioned on this thread was 10.5% over 3 years. That comes out to 3.38%/yr. Not bad, but how does it compare with actual COLA rates? (It's certainly less than the 4.1% the feds calculated based on CPI-W based on 2004 data, but I'm too lazy to look up other sources or other years for comparison.)

So where did the billion dollar surplus really come from? Did commuters pay too much, or did the MTA take money from the TWU by cutting their pay? (Or, quite possibly, both?) No matter how you slice it, this was poor financial management on MTA's part. If they had payed TWU workers fairly all along, there wouldn't be a big surplus. Same goes if they didn't raise fares too high.

Let's look at the other side of the coin, shall we? An 8% increase per year over 3 years comes to almost a 26% increase at the end of the term. Nowhere near the 38% increase the politicians saw (if I remember correctly from this thread). But 8%/yr is almost double 4.1%/yr. That seems a bit extreme, too. Certainly, in these kinds of negotiations you have to give yourself some wiggle room so you can come to a mutual agreement. Obviously if they asked for a fair 4.1%/yr deal and they met in the middle with 1.64%/yr, they'd be looking at 2.87%/yr: not good. (The midpoint between 8% and 1.64% is 4.82%.)

There's not enough details given over the pension deal. Either it's being taken away from current employees or it's not being offered to new hires. It's a benefit, and as such it's part of the total compensation that workers receive for their efforts. Not giving it to new hires is essentially a pay cut that effects everyone, because it devalues the work effort. Taking it away from someone who was hired under the agreement that a pension would be provided is breech of contract. (Unless the fine print says "the management reserves the right to loot the pension fund on a whim".)

The MTA is probably enjoying the negative public sentiment being generated towards the TWU. In fact, it only benefits their position the longer the strike goes on. The MTA stole a billion dollars from commuters and workers, and now it must be quite humorous for them to watch the commuters turn on the workers.”

“So who thinks unions are good for America, raise your hand.”

“thinkbub,
Not sure where you got the MTA stole a billion dollars.
A company has to make money. I guess Case should build backhoes and sell them at cost. That would leave no money for well anything.
Not to mention part of the billion dollars was used to shore up the current pension and the rest was planed for capital expenses. The deal for the Pension is the new hires would have to pay into part of the pension and the age be raised from 55 - 62. It also called that new hires have to pay 1% of there wage into health care. Seeing that many Americans have share in payment of health care they really have no grounds for complaint.

Also if the rate of inflation is higher than 3.5% then many Americans are not staying current with that rate.
last edited: 12/21/05 1:35:17 PM”

“Thinkbubelz, the TWU contract ran out at 12:01 AM this past friday. That was the zero hour for the strike, from the original threat. The three years you refer to was probably the two bus lines that went on strike first. They are in the process of being incorporated under the auspices of the MTA, but not yet subject to the Taylor Law. They have been without a contract for a long time. The billion dollars is reputed to have come from revenue generated through sales of property by the MTA and property tax rebates. And yes, this was poor planning, poor PR and poor disclosure a la underhanded tactics by the MTA in their accounting (nothing new).

Now, you hit the nail on the head with the pension deal. This is now the main sticking point. The MTA made other concessions, but raised the % from 2 to 6 per cent. The bitter pill the union has to swallow is that this is the way of the system in America now. We, in the priate sector, have had to get used to doing more, while settling for raises that often don't cover the cost of living, and paying beaucoup bucks into health care, pensions and what-not. The old days are gone, unfortunately. This stubborness may cost them dearly, with the fines levied against the union being a million dollars a day, the fines against each worker being two days' pay for each day out, and the possibility that if this injunction goes through today, the workers could be liable for $25,000 daily per person! The figures that are in place under the Taylor Law are not able to be bargained to down to being dropped when all is said and done.

in short, both sides have a lot to answer for and MUST get back to the bargaining table. Our feets will get sore after a few more days of this! :)
last edited: 12/21/05 2:01:58 PM”

“Has either party offered to submit to binding arbitration?”

“The MTA has wanted binding arbitration since the first sign of deadlock. The union has been adament against it. A mediator was assigned yesterday to step in. This means that he will talk to each side separately. He will make his assessments accordingly and then attempt to sit the two sides down at the bargaining table once again. This could lead to forced binding arbitration, but I think that all depends on how the court proceedings go.

So who thinks unions are good for America, raise your hand.”
bacpac

This wasn't meant to be an indictment of American labor unions, but I will attempt an answer here. The idea of unions in its original form was a wonderful thing. And, it still can be. There also has been known to be many instances of abuse of power from unions that have gotten too powerful. But, that doesn't mean I think they should be abolished. Government and government officials also have been known to abuse their power at times. That doesn't give way to the line of thinking that government should be abolished either...
last edited: 12/21/05 2:39:35 PM”

“Good point treebeard. The unions had a great purpose and to and extent have a decent purpose today. But I agree that some have gone to far. My best example is at my current job if I need a prototype tool built someone has to do it for me. I had to wait 3.5 weeks to get it done. I would have been allowed to pick up a piece of steel and a welder I could of had it done in 2 hours.”

“Intgeresting article:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1221/p08s03-comv.html”

“lots of great info. The offer the union was made sounds good to me on the surface (though I dont know all the details obviously) we had to take a benefits cut to generate our 2.1% this year. I anticipate a zero next year. Things are tough all over. 55 is still a very young age to retire.

its one thing when you strike an auto company, the general public doesnt feel the sting. But it sounds like the people who pay for the service (not the company) are the ones hurting. I cant imagine how this will win hearts or minds, especially in a slow economy when people are outta work (they'd prolly chop off a pinky for a job let along 10% over 3 years). Good luck to you New Yorkers.”

“Have they striked a couple times before? Because I believe in "third strike you're out".”

“It's not like PATCO where the strikers were rich, but salary from 47K to 55K isn't too shabby - especially with a retirement age of 55 - and they are asking for a retirement age of 50?

I think Unions are a proud and important part of American history. I think they've done a lot for this country. I paid Union dues when it was voluntary. Still, it looks to me that the union should have taken the last offer - either that or accepted binding arbitration. There are unions that are corrupt and unions that are too powerful. When they behave arrogantly and irresponsibly, labor suffers for it in the long run.”

“Birch, it's come to the point where the public sentiment is not exactly witht he union. It's getting worse, judging from today. The longer it goes, the more patience will run thin and the novelty of this will start growing thin.

Toussaint (Union boss) is due in court in the morning and may go to jail...

Buck, you have prophesized a little in your statement. The strike in 1966, 1980 and now 2005!

Ped, they haven't asked for retirement at 50. 55 is where it was and where it will probably stay for now...”

“Public safety is the paramount consideration in all codes of ethics for professional engineers. Not sure if unions have a code of ethics that includes public safety and well-being. Union membership has gone down from 47% of the workforce in the 1950s to under 14% today. IMHO, union power and relevance is declining because of the mentality behind that strike.

When I took a course in collective bargaining in graduate school at Purdue, the first thing the instructor told us was that "collective bargaining is not a rational process." Appears to be true in this case.”

“Heard an interesting segment on NPR about this strike today. The parent union of the TWU has told the TWU not to strike and to go back to work, that is a very powerful indictment of the TWU's approach.”

“Yes, that's true, Birch. They don't seem to want to mess witht he Taylor Law.


Well, good morning! I made it in again. Ferry from Staten Island. About a mile walk up to the PATH trains by Ground Zero. Take the PATH to New Jersey and then reverse to get back into Manhattan and up to 30th Street on the West Side. Hoof it another mile or so to the east side of 42nd Street. Fun, fun, fun!!!
last edited: 12/22/05 8:34:46 AM”

“The MTA and the union are talking again. They are across the street from this building and are negotiating at the moment!

Ok, guys! Enough! Let's end this thing...”

“Toussaint did have a point that being called greedy by a billionaire was strange. The NPR piece also resurrected a blast from the past - the name of Mike Quill, former TWU president. He was active during at least one transit strike in Philly way back when.

The problem with transit strikes is that the people being inconvenienced are invariably worse off economically than the "grieved" strikers, which is often why they take public transit in the first place. The wealthy ride in limos, or at least cars, or take commuter trains from suburban destinations. So you have folks with good benefits stranding people who have very few benefits if any at all, expecting that this will somehow create good will from those people who are stranded???

We had our strike earlier this year in Philly. It did not last long.”

“I hope they are able to work it out before Christmas.”

“If it goes on much longer, look for Bush to get involved, then all hell will break loose. Rumors of a national walkout if that happens.”

“NYC transit workers union leaders agree to a return to work while strike talks continue, mediator says. Deal must be OK'd by union executive board.

--CNN”

“Glad they are talking again. Otherwise, FEMA might show up and try to help out.”

“It may not get me home today, but maybe I can get to work normally tomorrow. I still have to figure out how to get the four or so miles from the ferry to my house once I reach Staten Island. Maple will be working and not available to give me a ride. That walk is in addition to the 2 - 2 1/2 miles I have to walk on the Manhattan side...”

“Put on a backpack and grab a pair of hiking poles.”

“Those Wimps! The unions losing their backbone is going to lead to the demise of all worker benefits across this nation. I'm not a union worker but, I'm not stupid enough to think I would enjoy the rights I have today without them. The current cycle of business taking more and more back from the worker will continue till they take enough for people to make a stand. Almost all of us are mere peasants in the eyes of the corporate goons. Always remember on the balance sheet a worker is a cost and not an asset.
last edited: 12/22/05 11:03:21 AM”

“Call Animal Control and report yourself as a stray - she'll have to come pick you up!”

““Those Wimps! The unions losing their backbone is going to lead to the demise of all worker benefits across this nation. I'm not a union worker but, I'm not stupid enough to think I would enjoy the rights I have today without them. The current cycle of business taking more and more back from the worker will continue till they take enough for people to make a stand. Almost all of us are mere peasants in the eyes of the corporate goons. Always remember on the balance sheet a worker is a cost and not an asset.


ha ha ha. That is one funny post.”

“I agree with every thing in Bateauxs post except his statement about this particular strike. I still think the Union should have either accepted binding arbitration or taken the last offer.

Even if the Monitor was wrong about the union wanting retirement at 50, they have it pretty good with retirement at 55. I don't think the strike was justified ad it will ultimately hurt labor.”

“Yeah, but for me it's a long-term game, for those in their 20s and 30s and even 40s, these are not the last changes they are going to face.
A few years down the line they'll try cut costs. You have to battle for every point. You let something go too easily then they'll move onto the next 'benefit', when the next negotiations come round.
You can't 'give away' anything in these type of negotiations.”

“I guess I don't see what is wrong with us the working paying for some health care and retirement. I mean come one people big companies already tried footing the whole bill for health care and people took advantage of it. Now we have health care costs that are out of this world and companies can not keep up.

By making us pay for some of the health care it makes us think twice before we head for the doctor for the common cold or a small scratch.

Same goes for retirement. To many people retire early and then live longer lives. Draining the pension funds and health care funds to keep them alive longer. Leaving the new worker with either the choice of;
1. Help pay for your own health care and retirement now.
or
2. Have no job because the cost of keeping the labor here in the US was so high the company outsourced your job to China.

It sucks that we have to take it in the a$$ for what others screwed up but we don't have much of a choice.”

“You can't 'give away' anything in these type of negotiations.”
Y2
12:40:09 PM
12/22/05
ignore this user

True, but you also have to be willing to compromise. I've seen places in my area where the union fought and fought and in the end the company decided it was easier to close up shop than give in to the unions demands.”

“New York can't pack up shop though. Compromise should be the aim though. Usually it takes some time to bring the parties together though. You cant' blink first in these things either.”

“The union board voted to go back to work. Now, it will take 12 to 18 hours to get the cars inspected, lights, signals, etc. Hopefully, by rush hour tomorrow morning, we'll be back on track, so to speak!
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/22/nyc.transit/index.html”

“Good. Santa Claus helpers will be happy as well as the Salvation Army Santa's/Bell Ringers.
last edited: 12/22/05 2:37:09 PM”

“CNN is reporting the strike is over. MTA beat SEPTA's record!”

“This union has a couple of things going for it.

The first is that they have proven how essential they are over the past few days. They struck and the trains and buses did actually stop. They are absolutely essential. This was not true of, say, the Northwest mechanics.

They also had enough good sense to get back to work and the bargaining table while the leverage was still good. If they waited until after Christmas to close the deal, they would have lost a lot of leverage. Make the deal now.

And that's what it really gets down to. Can the union back up demands? And can a union use leverage effectively? All the good/evil arguments are garbage.

No one argues if an MBA or tech dude uses the threat of walking away to get a better salary. No one should argue if the transit workers do the same thing.

And percentage increases are irrelevant. What is the market willing to pay? If NYC wants subways, it should be willing to pay what the market demands. And right now, that is probably in the favor of the transit workers.”

“Darn! I was hoping the city would be able to hold out until the holiday weekend and break their backs. They already broke the union's bank account and they had 'em against the ropes.”

“

No one argues if an MBA or tech dude uses the threat of walking away to get a better salary. No one should argue if the transit workers do the same thing.
reformed lurker

Apples and oranges! The transit workers expect to return to their jobs whatever the outcome, whereas an MBA or tech dude may have to go elsewhere. One place I remember would immediately release the person with 2-weeks pay, if they received a resignation notice.(usually a two week or longer notice) It was to try and maintain moral in the workplace.

Once I had to turn down a transfer offer, which, also, meant I would be out of work, before they were willing to talk money with me. Within 20 minutes I had a call from someone who said, "We don't want to let money stand in the way of this!"
last edited: 12/22/05 5:01:20 PM”

“They also had enough good sense to get back to work and the bargaining table while the leverage was still good. If they waited until after Christmas to close the deal, they would have lost a lot of leverage. Make the deal now.

Very true, RL. One thing you left out. I don't think Roger Toussaint was ready to face this judge. He wasn't siding too well with the union. And, although getting tossed in the clinker would have made him a martyr of sorts, i believe the union realized that the people's patience was wearing thin already and waiting was going to cause this thing to backfire in their face. The only sensible answer was to get back to the bargaining table. This is the only action, at this point, that would show "good faith" on the part of the TWU and the MTA.

Thanks to all of you who had good input and didn't make this into a fuego thread (with one exception). It's been a rough week for a lot of us here. It was good talking to you folks and getting constructive input, as well as giving me a little bit of venting room...
last edited: 12/22/05 7:58:41 PM”

“This should get honorable mention:

KUDOS! To the city and people of New York!

These folks handled the adverse conditions extremely well. The city's contingency plan of keeping traffic under control by enforcing the "four in a car" method worked very well. The NYPD did a great and tough job of handling the flow of traffic, protecting the empty subway stations and tunnels, and keeping a good demeanor about them. And, to the citizens affected, New Yorkers once again showed their resiliency to less than desirable conditions by being resourceful, peaceful, friendly and determined to keep on not live up to the expectations for chaos. Cheers!”

“Walmart fined millions for screwing workers out of lunch breaks.

It would be nice if Wal-Mart was fined $1,000,000 per every day they screwed an employee out of thier lunch break. They did break the law. It would be nice to break thier backs.”

“I don't get where Tree gets off saying times are different now when the fact is there has never been a bigger disparity between the pay of executives and line-level workers, adjusted dolloars, percentage or any other way you want to measure it. I thought it was disgusting how the mayor was going on tv demonizing these lower middle class workers. #&%!$ you, mayor, walk your ass to work!”

“Toejam, I have no problem with you disputing any points I make. But, let's, at least, get my message correct. The disparity you speak of is very real, and I respect that and I am on the same page with you there. But, I was speaking of what we, as rank and file workers in the private sector, have had shoved down our throats. These people are probably going to have to pitch in to their pension fund. Guess what! I have to also. I also have to pay a huge premium to keep my family insured. I make signifiantly less than these guys do. Unfiortunately, we don't have the option to do anything but quit, should we not like the deal we are getting. That's the new way of life I was referring to. I am only saying that this is a reality we all are going to have to face or have already faced.

BTW, they don't pay a dime into healthcare and have a pretty good plan! I had no choice but to use a vacation day on Tuesday (I earned that day for myself, not them), because their agenda involved putting my back to the wall. Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-union (And I despise the MTA with a passion-those are REAL thugs, big money thugs). I feel that if these folks were getting royally screwed, I would have been behind them one hundred per cent. But, the offer on the table was workable and didn't need to hold seven million people hostage. As long as they were able to keep the negotiations going in good faith, they should have held off on the strike and not walked. The timing was bad. If the MTA walked out on the talks, then perhaps I would feel differently. But, they didn't. Toussaint walked out on them. This has been a rough week for all of us. So, understand that I think it's great that an entity can exist that will stand up for the men and women that put their backbone into running the country, states, cities and municipalities. I don't want to see anything happen to that. But, let me reiterate what I said to Bacpac about unions. There is abuse of power sometimes, when one entity gets too powerful. This can't be tolerated, IMO. But, government officials also abuse power, and that should not be tolerated either. I am not advocating the abolition of either, based on that!”

“An astute point from Phils prof. When I was in the union collective bargaining was not rational nor collective. The company guys were turned loose to bully and insult (and generally waste time) until the deadline and then reveal the only thing they were willing to offer. We could either take it or keep what we had until it became finacially beneficial to accept the concessions.

One vp said "I'll spend the last nickel of the company's money to ensure not one more person joins the union." Of course he didn't mean spending money on pay and benefits, only being a compaction in the process. That attitude caused a few groups to join.

I support anybody willing to organize and walk out. I work for a big top-heavy company in a right to work state. There is a point where unions can abuse their influence, but that's not going to happen anytime soon in the United States. So the more strikes there are, the better my pay and benefits will be.”

“We responded to my post at the same time. Your well-written commentary comes from being personally affected by this strike, while my idealistic sentiments come from far away.

My feeling is that the Wal Marts, Mayor Bloombergs, and greedy executive egotists of this country have us on a road that in the past lead to violent picket lines.”