"Intelligent Design" & Public Schools

“Mutt I don't Accept EVERYTHING written (UM BY MAN by the way) or how individual Men interpret it.Rather my Faith encourages me to continually seek the truth. I think this is what Sarge is discussing.

I think we can that any faith/religion/concept that is followed Unflinchingly ends up being destructive. When it becomes destructive I find it runs counter to my perceived intentions from God.”

“i know the identity of OS, btw. for 20 dollars and the location of the WMD'S, i'll sell it to ya”

“XL, I don't think anyone has a problem with creation myths like Intelligent Design being taught in a Comparative Religions class or similar.

But non-scientific theories should by definition be kept out of Biology class.”

“so, we're on to the personal attacks

typical

see you”

“Funny how mutt would rather twist something that was said 2 years ago about a discussion I had w/ a professor than address my argument, which w
s about how scientists limit their own cognative abilities when its convenient for them - for anybody paying attention to the actual discussion.”

“I'm just stating what you said to Jimmy San when you two were debating the Big Bang. That you think your own words are a personal attack is very telling!

LMAO - it's always fun to see a crash-and-burn.”

“Jeez what an adolescent. Go ahead and have your discussion, Sarge, I'll bow out.”

“the reason that dark matter and dark energy were even discussed in science is because galaxies didnt behave the way they were expected to, so scientists were forced to deal with it and figure out what it was. "dark matter" is a better name than "invisible crap that we dont know wtf it is"

however, science gets along just fine without the concept of god”

“I'm just stating what you said to Jimmy San when you two were debating the Big Bang. That you think your own words are a personal attack is very telling!

Those were not my words. Post them here and prove me wrong if you dare. I only debated him once, so I would not have said that I "routinely win(s) debates on physics with Ivy-League physicists".

Stop the trolling Mutt.”

“You need to read Darwins blackbox,by Michael Behe.

Darwin's%2520black%2520box.JPG
last edited: 8/16/07 6:35:19 AM”

“put another way, dark matter was inferred by the the movement of the stars and galaxies. god has never been inferred by anything other than a bunch of feel-good anecdotes. the non-theory of dark matter was a heckuva lot closer to being a real theory than ID
last edited: 8/16/07 6:35:20 AM”

“crash bang - your characterization of the theory of dark matter is missing a key ingredient - That they think it is an actual thing (and they may be right) that exists, and that they look for it - and theorize about it - even when not knowing how to do so (how to measure it and prove it). It's a theory of which there is no measurement tool for. (again, if you believe they have done so recently, there was a long period of time until recently where that was the case)”

“god has never been inferred by anything other than a bunch of feel-good anecdotes

If you believe that, you have not put any time into studying ID.

In fact, two of the basic components of ID are that you can't get something for nothing in our physical universe, and the theory of entropy, both scientific theories.
last edited: 8/16/07 6:36:55 AM”

“crash - I understand how people like to point to a particular book to denounce ID theory, but may I do the same to denounce evolution? Would that be fair?”

“i didnt bring up the book. paddles did

You need to read Darwins blackbox,by Michael Behe.

Darwin's%2520black%2520box.JPG
last edited: 8/16/07 4:35:19 AM”
paddles
4:32:18 AM
8/16/07
last edited: 8/16/07 6:44:21 AM”

“Sorry, I didn't read paddles post.”

“If we are going to give equal time to the Christian belief of the beginning of the world shouldn't we have to (by your standards) teach what other religions believe to be the beginning of the world and how we got here????

Then that means we must teach, the Islamic concept, the American Indian concept, the Buddhist concepts and on and on and on!”

“who are you asking Tango?”

“Tango, I'll assume you're asking me since I've been the most vocal for supporting ID thus far. Your question has 3 major flaws in its premise.

First off, if you read what I've written you know that I don't think that ID should get equal time. In fact, I said it should not be taught, just mentioned.

Next, many of the other religions have a similar 'origins' theory as christianity.

Finally, the Christian belief is not what we're talking about here. In fact, ID contradicts what I am taught in church.”

““Why do these people think they have the Gawd-given right to indoctrinate other people's kids with their craziness?

Do it with your own kids --- at Home.”

Exact-a-motherphuckin-mundo!”

“Well, the problem with that is that in the public school system, the school presents "evolutionary theory" as fact - which it is not - therefore if they are going to insist on teaching the theory, they need to present it in context, as one of several theories.”

“Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover



It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.
The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism



Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution.
- Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990

...in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.
- Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986
last edited: 8/16/07 7:32:11 PM”

“
I recall a scene from the PBS documentary about high schoolers in Appalachia: "Country Boys".  They're in Biology class discussing Evolution and one kids pipes up: "Jesus wadn't no monkey!"

And the teacher replied, "You Dang Right!"

I fell off the sofa.

”

“Sometimes I think it's a wonder we didn't attack Mars.”

“Ha ha Tilt!”

“jebus was a towelhead”

“Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. - Tango

If Tango went to a public school, I rest my case.”

“I hit the little red plus sign to see what slow-witted obtuse imbecilic thing you said. And you didn't surprise me! What a dumb ass!!!! Read on and then comment like an intelligent human being (if you can, though I doubt you can do that). And just to be clear I DIDN'T write it get your facts straight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was a quote! Get it zippy?
last edited: 8/16/07 8:22:55 PM”

“who pissed in tangos cornflakes?”

“Tango, so you do or don't agree evolution is a fact? You put the quote as if you agree. Do you? If not, maybe you should have said so. Don't cry man. Jeesh. ke I said, public schools teach it as fact, and you seem to agree that it is, hense my comment. If you disagree w, your own quote, just say so. No harm, no foul.”

“Tango, I was rushed this morning, let me explain better because you're obviously angry, hense the unprovoked name calling.

Earlier, I had said "Well, the problem with that is that in the public school system, the school presents "evolutionary theory" as fact ..."

Then by your omission of disagreement, it was implied that you agreed with this quote that you posted: "Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact."

That led to my comment: "If Tango went to a public school, I rest my case."

That is not a bust on you, but on public schools - I was just pointing out that since you appear to agree with that sentiment, it nicely demonstrates what I had just claimed, that in public schools they teach it as fact.

If you disagree with the quotes you posted, you should have said so, otherwise, it appears as if you are posting them as an argument for your case, and therefore agree with them.

Don't take it so personally, and why don't you lay off the name calling, it'll make this website much more pleasant, plus you'll come across as less of a hypocrite for calling people's comments "obtuse".



last edited: 8/17/07 4:44:52 AM”

“I have this this "scientific" theory that no objective member of the scientific community supports. It contradicts one of the best supported multi-disciplined scientific theories in existence. Though it involves the strong implication of supernatural forces, it doesn't explicitly state this, as it's a "secularized" version of a religious myth. There have been no empirical observations of evidence for my theory, but darn it, if you REALLY have faith that there is evidence and are willing to look at things just the right way, then the evidence is obvious. My theory isn't testable, it isn't predictive, there's no measures for it, but it IS somehow scientific and should be taught in public school science courses alongside the scientific theory it contradicts, because some day it *may* become scientific fact the way other conjectures have become scientific fact.

^^^ That's pretty much the laughable state of ID today, right?”

“It sums up the early theories of electro-magnitism and dark matter quite well.”

“Don't ever click the little plus signs!  It han't been worth it YET ---- Not Once since the Ignore Feature went live.”

“Right, so I demand that in addition to the standard theory of gravity, we teach our children about the Intelligent Hand that holds everything down on the earth. Because we should be teaching every new untested idea along because some day my theory will be true!”

“Wow, between the unprovoked personal attacks, name-calling and attempts at humor to avoid debate, you guys really make a convincing argument.”

“Poor Tilt, always striving to appear superior over someone else. I'd hate to have such low self-esteem.”

“Tilt I just learned that lesson (you couldn't have just a little ESP and have saved me??). It won't happen again!”

“Unfortunately, it's NOT funny, Sarge. There's nothing to debate because you don't have a position to begin with. The only thing your pathetic clique has is religious hubris.

Ta ta!”

“jimmy san has already pwned every single person on this thread, no point in debating it any further”

“The trolling is rampant. Anybody ELSE want to discuss this, I'd be glad to.”

“Intelligent Design *is* trolling.”

“I click one every once in a while, and there's always worthless nasty bad-tempered crap underneath.”

“LOL - I hit a little too close to home. Poor Tilt.”

“jimmy san's argument was the the universe ALWAYS existed - with absolutely no evidence or ability to measure that - so by all of YOUR arguments, his theory is as ridiculous as ID. If that is "pwning" anybody, your standards are pretty low.”

“Jimmy San was arguing science, you were obfuscating with semantics and cheap debate tricks, Sarge. That's all you've ever been able to do, and that's why no one thinks you're an intellectual authority on this or anything else related to science.”

“Ok, so "science" consists of untestable theories?

My gosh man, which is it?

Look this up: "Double Standards"”

“When you made claims like that Mutt (that he was arguing science) - it just makes my ENTIRE point that there is a double standard with science. Something is acceptable as "science" if it fits certain political criteria, independent of the scientific method.

Plus, your whole argument has been based on insults - so what authority are you?
last edited: 8/17/07 6:06:22 AM”

“The finite human syndrome creates universe to bolster feelings of security , bring your blankets.”