"Intelligent Design" & Public Schools

“IDer is kind of lame. A better label would be IDiot.”

“speaking of lame, benji, that was your worst trolling attempt ever”

“Really? I kind of like IDiot. In fact I mean to use it from now on.”

“the funny thing about improbable is, its not impossible

Nothing is impossible with God.”

“wow. thanks for the bumper sticker”

“I remember a priest telling me one time that lack of gratitude was a sin so big that even God couldn't forgive it.”

“Mutt has no original thoughts on the subject but just relies on his "authorities".

Comfortable in the safe cocoon of the consensus of his betters.”

“Original thoughts on Trail Talk are few and far between.

Take a look at your gem for example: the result of chaos plus long stretches of time but I don't have the faith

Gee, never heard it put that way before.”

“Well, it is appears you are one of those who likes to pretend there is something "scientific" about the unfounded assumptions you make about cosmology and the nature of things.

The truth is nobody has ever observed complex order arising out of chaos. To believe that is the nature of reality is an unfounded assumption and requires faith to believe.

My "gem" is at its root exactly what materialists believe. Don't be afraid of your faith and its dogmas! Embrace it!”

“The difference is that real scientist are willing to let go of their "dogmas" if further study produces a theory that provides a better explanation. ID proponents can not do that because they start with the end result as fact and build dogma around it.”

“The truth is nobody has ever observed complex order arising out of chaos.

Acutally, most IDiot websites caution IDiots not to use this argument, as it makes you look like even bigger idiots.”

“The world's most redundant book title:
”

“Acutally, most IDiot websites caution IDiots not to use this argument, as it makes you look like even bigger idiots

Another insult but no "beef", whatever ;)

I wouldn't know what is on ID websites as I only have a passing interest in the subject.
last edited: 12/07/07 7:10:27 AM”

“our understanding of the big bang only goes back so far. the laws of general relativity break down before we get to the singularity (not that theres anything wrong with that). if gawd/the prime mover/the intelligent designer had a hand in our creation, it was then”

“Any design that creates so much waste (the entire universe and all the multiple universes that may be out there) to create one intelligent life form and one planet for them to live on doesn't seem to be very intelligent to me.”

“if those who do not believe that we evolved from ape-like beings were honest, most would admit its an emotional argument based on revulsion. they think that we're somehow more holy and special than "damn dirty apes" and gods special children, somehow above the animals. nevermind the fact that we share something like 97 or 98 percent of our genes with chimpanzees”

“Any design that creates so much waste (the entire universe and all the multiple universes that may be out there) to create one intelligent life form and one planet for them to live on doesn't seem to be very intelligent to me.

I've never heard that was one of the suppositions of ID.

Personally I think that there is probably other life out there someplace.”

“hell even if there was intelligent life in every single star system (there isnt), it would be an enormous waste of space. just our solar system is probably a billion miles wide. total waste”

“and speaking of solar systems, i'd just like to remind everyone that uranus is a gas giant

HAHA! thank you! i'll be here all week!”

“if those who do not believe that we evolved from ape-like beings were honest, most would admit its an emotional argument based on revulsion

You are making a broad generalization there. You have some special insight into my psyche and know I'm not honest with myself?

nevermind the fact that we share something like 97 or 98 percent of our genes with chimpanzees

Big deal we also are made 100% out of the same organic materials. We also happen to earthlings just like them.”

“What about an inifinite number of you and an infinite number just a little different from you?”

“hell even if there was intelligent life in every single star system (there isnt), it would be an enormous waste of space. just our solar system is probably a billion miles wide. total waste

That is just a subjective judgment on your part that has no real bearing on anything.

Like you bring up the scale of "everything" is so huge we cannot even comprehend the size of it all. If it were possible to look at the whole from the outside and see where there is life maybe it would appear be teaming with life.”

“You are making a broad generalization there

that why i said "most"

Big deal we also are made 100% out of the same organic materials

it is a big deal, actually. our genes determine who we are. if you get right down to it, all the elements of the universe are composed of the same things building blocks: neutrons, protons, and electrons flying around in different formations. your statement that we are made of the same organic materials is pointless

If it were possible to look at the whole from the outside and see where there is life maybe it would appear be teaming with life

there may be lots and lots of life, but theres lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots................. more space”

“ok anti-evolutionists: i give you the platform. if we didnt evolve from ape-like beings, how DID we come to be?”

“Cause Cheney let us pretend we're the boss?? Am I rite?”

“I don't have the faith to believe such an improbability.”
ChicagolandRon
9:37:20 PM
12/06/07

What is ludicrous about this attempt to invoke logic and probability on the ID side of the debate is this: They argue that it is extemely unlikely that a world such as ours could have come into existence without an intelligent designer. Them they conclude that there must have been some being that did all this, some being beyond explanation with a conceptual and existential complexity and sophistication far beyond anything that could have existed in this world.

How do we explain the Intelligent Designer. Where did the ID come from? Gee I dunno its magic. Ain't that cool.

The mysteries of faith are deep and the universe is full of mystery. But faith just doesn't wash as science.

When people tell me faith is better than science or faith can offer insight into meaning and purpose, or that it offers spiritual guidance that science cannot, those are interesting assertions. Sometimes, I think they are true. Other times, I don't.”

“How do we explain the Intelligent Designer. Where did the ID come from? Gee I dunno its magic. Ain't that cool.

Whoa horsey! You've missed the point somehow.

The REASON the mathematical improbablity of things happening the way they have is relevant to this universe, is because it is based on the physical scientific laws/properties of which we are aware.

The idea of a creator is based on the concept that He does not follow the laws of this world - whether it be from another diminsion, or whatever the reason (spirit). Just like scientific theorists envision other universes with other properties, or dimensions beyond those which we can actually test for - the IDer envisions a creator in a similar light, whose probability of existence is by definition, incalculable. By it's very nature, it's not an issue of "where" it came from, or by what means (magic?), because we are not, and cannot, be aware of the physical properties of that "world". We have barely begun to grasp the physical properties of our OWN world, one which we KNOW exists.

It's not about the idea that this being exhibits an "existntial complexity and sophistication far beyone anything that could have existed in this world." It's just 'different', and we don't know what it is. It might be quite simple.”

“Not this chit again.

Just what in the Hell don't you people get?

No matter how many times you repackage it, or layers of lipstick you put on it, it's still not a science-based .... anything. Therefore, it does not belong in a science class, just like teaching evolution has no place in the Church.

IDer's -- listen up. Y'all have a place to go and learn about what ever the Hell it is the representative of your "god" has to say about your respective belief system has to offer. Go on, tear it up. But, you can't have two places in which to stump your belief system. Science doesn't, nor should you.

If Science gets a foot in the church door, then come on in to the classroom and preach it 'till the cows come home.

So in short -- Put a sock in it already, k?”

“So in short -- Put a sock in it already, k?

"Listen up"

How about you exercise restraint and not open the thread if you have such poor control over your emotions that you feel you have to throw a hissy fit.

Take some deep breaths and go look at a picture thread or something "k"
last edited: 12/07/07 9:06:32 AM”

“Not emotional, just very board over how many times you folks try and slide this junk by.

Hissy fit? HA!

Try reading a little better next time, sparky.”

“Chicago, keep in mind the left only wants the lefty views expressed. Everyone else has to shut up. It's their idea of the 1st amendment.”

“Just like scientific theorists envision other universes with other properties, or dimensions beyond those which we can actually test for - the IDiot envisions a creator in a similar light, whose probability of existence is by definition, incalculable. - Sarge

Of course scientific concepts that aren't currently testable tend to enhance explanatory and predictive power elsewhere - that's why they were created. ID simply is a roadblock, because there's no reason for a creator to do anything a certain way, the creator can do whatever it wants. It provides no explanatory or predictive power to anything. There's no uniformity, so there's no point in trying to figure anything out. Like, for example, the IDiot concept of "irreducible complexity" - the IDiot looks at the human eye and says "STOP investigating right there! The Designer must have done it!" End of human advancement.
last edited: 12/07/07 10:10:25 AM”

“Sarge. You might be right. There might be a creator (or creators) that doesn't follow the rules of this world or any rules knowable to man. There may be things that science can never explain. If so, those things are beyond science and they ain't science.”

“No start, no end and no complicated schemes to defend.”

“If so, those things are beyond science and they ain't science.

I was resndong to this:

What is ludicrous about this attempt to invoke logic and probability on the ID side of the debate is this:

It may not be science, but it's not a "ludicrous attempt to invoke logic and probability", as you claimed. Whether or not it is 'science' is a different question.”

“Big--------Bang is only slang.”

“Thanks for the chuckles.”

“"It may not be science, but it's not a "ludicrous attempt to invoke logic and probability", as you claimed. Whether or not it is 'science' is a different question."

Oh GET STUFFED!

Turd!”

“More chuckles and maybe knuckles if we have some really good luckles.
last edited: 12/07/07 5:39:05 PM”

“so anyways...............i more or less agree with the id'ers on one point. there MAY be a creator outside our universe who plays by different rules than we do, a Prime Mover, and thats why our laws of general relativity break down as we approach the Singularity, the point before the Big Bang, when all matter and time was condensed in a single point.

this brings up an interesting tangent. currently, everything that happens in the universe (and i mean (EVERYTHING) is a direct result of just 4 forces (gravity, weak and strong radiation, electromagnetism). but that is not totally true. just like everything can be boiled down to those 4, physicists are looking for a way to boil those 4 down to 1, the grand unified theory. now, if we have multiple universes, operating under different laws (forces), do they each have their own grand unified force different from the grand unified force of our universe? if so, it is reasonable to assume that those Forces are the direct result of a Mega Grand Unified Force.

also, if there is a Grand Creator of our universe, to us s/he/it may seem all encompassing, but this Grand Creator/Prime Mover could be one of thousands or millions. let that fck with your mind for awhile

or maybe we're all just part of the matrix

so anyways, i would like to hear a believable alternative to evolution of man, from those who dont believe that we evolved from ape-like beings
last edited: 12/07/07 5:40:09 PM”

“.....give me a break.....”

“give yourself a break. do you actually have anything useful to add?”

“If you are grossed out by the ape theory, imagine being the product of a mother nature that looked like Hillary Clinton.”

“The arguement that our universe is a waste is rather... spacious :} considering the cosmologists are saying that our universe is but one of many. We are but a small tiny spec in a much larger multiverse. Life on other planets/universes? Nothing in the bible rules it out and nothing in science rules it out either.

Lets get down to the real issue. Fact VS belief. I dont believe that anything unproven to be fact should be taught in school except as theory. When and where it is appropriate to teach theory all of the current theories should be presented equally.

Lets add a bit of definition at this point. Evolution consists currently as two parts. One part, that organisms evolve over time and adapt to thier enviroment is well proven and easily observable. The other part of evolution, that man and everything else evolved from ground up is little more then speculation at this point. While we know man has much in common with simians and that man has changed a lot over the years along with most other life on earth, there are still many "missing links" to complete the chains needed to prove that we evolved from apes.

Evolution as a biological process should be taught in schools as it is a proven fact of our existance. But evolution as the means of our creation is just a theory. If we allow evolution to be taught in schools, to be the means of our creation, then equal time must be given to all other theories like ID, creationism and even reincarnation. The simple fact of the matter is we dont know for sure how the we came to be here and all we have is speculation.”

“"just a theory"

there is no thing as "just a theory"
"just a hypothesis" maybe, but not "just a theory"

i get so tired of all this "well you didnt see it happen so its just speculation" crap

if you live in a town 30 miles away from me, and you call me from your landline, and say youre coming over, and you arrive at my doorstep 15 minutes later i know for A FACT that you broke the speed limit getting here. not because i saw you do it, but because i did the math

same thing with science. they observed natural phenomenon, they did the calculations, and they extrapolated

NOW

i ask again

IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION, THEN WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER FOR HOW WE GOT HERE?

some peeps love beating up evolution, but i never hear them coming up with an alternative”

“How we got here? The stork brought me.”

“how did the stork get here?”

“Sure. � Study ID.... in a Comparative Religion class. � Sorry.... not science. � Not even close.

There is evidence that the geneology of modern humans can be traced back up the maternal line by evaluating samples of mitochondrial DNA (collected worldwide) to a single female who lived in East Africa some 200,000 years ago (Wilson and Cann, 1992).�

Then again, we may well be decended from a bunch of interior decorators and hairdressers whose spaceship crashlanded.”

“if you live in a town 30 miles away from me, and you call me from your landline, and say youre coming over, and you arrive at my doorstep 15 minutes later i know for A FACT that you broke the speed limit getting here. not because i saw you do it, but because i did the math

Umm no I just called from the gas station... LOL

There are in fact other theories then just evolution. Just because you dont accept them does not mean they dont exist. I for one dont believe that we came in to exisitence by pure random chance. The odds of an intelligent civilization ever being created by pure evolution requires google size numbers beyond comprehension. The odds favor the existance of a divine being.....”