Sleeping bag quandary

“I am a new guy here at TT. I've been enjoying the banter here for several months now. But, now, I need some help in the way of your collecive experiences/observations/opinions.

I need to replace my old, heavy liteloft (lostloft) sleeping bag. I've been reading/researching hither and yon on the internet for months regarding down vs. synthetic choice for bag insulation.

What I ask, is that those of you who backpack in the areas/weather conditions listed below, what has/has not worked for you as far as down or syn bag insulation is concerned? Bag recommendations? What to avoid?

I would prefer down (comfort, durability, weight, packability). However, I find that it is rather dependent on trip weather and how one takes care of their gear while on the trail, that may sway a choice one way or another. After having soaked my syn bag on the fourth of a six day Boundary Waters canoe trip many years ago, I have learned to take extremely better care to keep my bag dry!

Here is the where and when of my trips: Red River Gorge, Ky, Beaver Creek Wilderness Area, Ky, Big South Fork, Tn, Dolly Sods, WV, Charles Deem Wilderness, Ind, and various other areas in Ohio, Ind, and Ky for backpacking or day hike trips with camping (Mid mid-west region?). My trips range from late February thru early November, though I prefer cooler as to hotter weather. My experience has been that it almost always rains at least one night/day on any given trip. I have only cancelled one trip, that I recall, because of weather (there was golfball sized hail and tornados generated by that storm). The lowest nighttime backpacking trip temperature was about 22-24 degrees, but usually 30-35 degrees is the norm on the cool side. I sleep under a tarp with my bag & Thermarest pad in an Outdoor Research Advanced Bivy.

I have been reading some negative things on the internet about Polargard Delta, regarding poor loft recovery. My musings have led me to favor the Kelty Lightyear Polargard 3D, 25 degree or a Marmot (900 down fill) Hydrogen, 30 degree bag. A winter bag is not yet in my plans.

I also realize that I may have to consider two bags if I start doing winter trips (below 25 degrees @night).


Thanks, in advance, for sharing your experiences, opinions and knowledge!

Dan”

“I use a down bag here in the NE and I have (knocking on wood) never gotten my bag wet. I think down is the way to go, is lasts longer, compresses better has better loft return, and is reeally warm for the weight.
My 0* bag is the Marmot Lithium and it is well rated at 0* i have had it down to -5 or -10* and with light layer on been plenty warm.”

“I'd say, go down with a water resistant shell. Consider using a bag liner.”

“I purchased my first bag, TNF Cats Meow/Polarguard Delta with the thinking if my bag gets wet I want it to dry out fast. 6 years later..my bag has never gotten wet and I could kick myself for not getting down. Not to mention I thought I'd never do colder than 20 degrees. Twice last winter I was out and temps dipped in the teens...even with liner I was a popsicle.
If I had it to do over...0 degree/down w/ silnylon stuff sack.

oh yeah and that polarguard doesn't compress small enough for my liking. Loft has always bounced back from compression..never had an issue with that.
last edited: 1/05/06 6:57:45 PM”

“Dan I have used down for those areas you speak, winter and fall and have never had a problem....the only close call was in mammoth caves kentuky when I was coaught off guard by a tornado spawning storm with nothing but a tarp...my bag got a tad wet then but it was no big deal, I slept the rest of the morning in it.”

“I have the Marmot Hydrogen 30 degree bag you are talking about and am very happy with it. I don't know what more I can say about it. It's perfect for me. I also have the Atom which is the 40 degree version of the same bag. It is a quality sleeping bag. I would buy it again.”

“Down is fine, just take some steps to keep it dry. Use a waterproof stuffsack. It's not so tough to step them getting wet.”

“I agree with the collective wisdom. I own 2 down bags and have not had a problem with keeping them dry. If you are an ultraliter or close to it, check out Western Mountaineering, they are super light and super warm. And I am a COLD sleeper. Stovey loves WM too. He should show up on this thread. The last trip I took to Savage Gulf I must have poured out 2 gallons of water out of my pack and my WM in a trash bag was totally dry. (It was pouring down rain from midnight Sat night till after we hiked out Sunday)

Good luck.
last edited: 1/05/06 9:02:27 PM”

“I own the following WM bags and can say they each are great bags.

Antelope Super MF
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=Microfiber%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=37

UltraLite
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=17

Highlite
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=16

Mitylite
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&cat=ExtremeLite%20Series&viewpost=2&ContentId=15”

“I used the Marmot Helium (down) bag on my thru hike and always had it stuffed in a trash bag for extra protection. I took a dunk while fording the east branch of the (not so) Pleasant River in Maine and my bag remained dry (but my sack did not). No problem with down here.”

“It's a matter of preference on the syn vs down argument. I have 2 old bags(20 yr plus) that I use , a defunct brand with fiberfill 2 and a north face bigfoot with original polarguard. Both still loft fine but I'm careful to store them loosely instead of packed tight. I'm not a fan of down because I've seen too many times folks get in trouble from getting "damped".Light weight is good, but I just like the extra insurance for the few ounces difference.”

“I have never had problems with my down bag getting wet from rain, etc. I have had problems where I lost loft from the bag because I did stupid things involving poor ventilation. You can lose loft in a down bag if you aren’t careful about condensation.”

“Same here, my down bags never got wet from rain, but condensation, humidity and moisture evaporating from the inside made them lose loft and add weight to the bag. The good news is you can dry it out during the day. The bads news is, if the humidity stays high or it's extremely cold this might not work very well or at least take a long time. I still like down, but I don't like washing down bags. If conditions look ugly, high humidity plus lots of rain, not much chance to dry anything out, I take a homemade synthetic bag. I like the fact that they can be easily washed and dried at home.
last edited: 1/05/06 10:24:27 PM”

“Stovestomper - I too, have the WM Super MF Antelope. I love it as it is big enough to bury myself but not too big to heat up. I use it on all snow camping trips and used it on a trip this summer where it rained for three days. Moisture has never been a problem as it usually dries out during the day no matter the temp. I also have the MH Tioga 5 degree bag. Love them both...and both are down.”

“I had two Moonstone lite loft bags and they were covered by warranty and they replaced them for free. I suggest calling the manufacturer of your bag and see if you can get a new one for FREE. BTW I still use a synthetic for summer and winter. 2# for the summer bag, 3.5 for the winter.”

“If you are worried about condensation and loss of loft get a bag that has a pertex quantum shell (did I spell that right)? My Marmot Atom (40 degree bag) does, but my Marmot Hydrogen doesn't. Neither does my North Face winter bag.”

“Yes, you spelled that right.

I just got a new bag yesterday.
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47978714&parent_category_rn=4500514&vcat=REI_SSHP_CAMPING_TOC

I will let you know how it works next weekend.”

“I have a NF snowshoe synthetic 0 deg - and a
Marmot Helium down 15 deg.
I stay warmer in the 15, then in the 0 deg !!
Down rules !!”

“Get a 15-20 degree down bag. Get it plenty long enough for you. I have a 10 yr old TNF Blue Kazoo that's still going strong.”

“WK, your on a spree! Cool! Did you make up your mind on the new pack yet?”

“Nope, not yet. I am going to have take a trip to the local REI and try a few on first.

I don't think I will be purchacing a pack until April or so.”

“Thanks to all of you, very much! I am quite overwhelmed buy all the comments and recommendations. This, however, has given rise to another question or two!

Jimmy san & RichB, when you talk about humid conditions...like what do you mean? Were you in a tent? I pack my bag in a garbage sack to keep it dry. One time, when I was using a tent, I was cold at bed time, it was raining and didn't vent at all. When I woke up in th AM, I thought it had rained inside the tent. Everything was soaked. Now I use a tarp and a Gortex bivy!

I ask those of you with down bags (too many to list) with anywhere from a 0 to 30 degree rating: What is the warmest comfortable temp for your bag's rating? Particularly those with the Marmot bags. In warmer weather I usually lay directly on my Thermarest, using my bag like a quilt with the zipper undone.

Sticks, the liteloft bag is a 12-13 year old Sierra Designs "Northern Lite", 0 degree, 4 lb. bag purchased from REI. It's been washed a few times and has been stored either hanging or in a large roomy cotton storage sack. It has had a pretty full life. I think it is now a heavy 50 degree bag!

StoveStomper, how does the 59" shoulder girth bags fit for you? I'm 5'9" @ 165 lbs. and am used to a 62" girth. I'm sure I could go a bit smaller, though. I surprized you don't have the WM Caribou, too (just kidding)! I've been looking at the WM bags alot, too!

Wounded Knee, your bag is even narrower with a 57" girth. How tight is that for you?

Swamp Yankee, I have an 18 year old Coleman 15 degree mummy bag with Holofill II that is now warmer than the 0 degree liteloft bag...but it weighs 6 lbs. and is fine for car camping.

Spirit Coyote, what bag & rating do you use, as you had said it has been used in all the areas I mentioned?

Thanks again,
Dan”

“I have only had a few experiences with condensation. One was my own fault when I was sleeping in a bivy sack in cold weather. I zipped it shut so it would warm up faster after I got in on a cold night. I accidentally fell asleep before I could unzip the bag to expose the mesh vent. The temperature dropped dramatically, far more than I had anticipated. I would have slept quite warm and comfy but with the temperature cold outside and all that moisture trapped inside the bag I was sort of doomed. I mean the bivy I have is very breathable but I don’t think it’s THAT breathable. The inside of the bivy had small puddles of water and I was cold most of the night… then I had to go outside to pee because I forgot to put my pee bottle in the bivy. Talk about freezing my nuts off! When I got back in the sack from that potty break the damp down and dank bivy felt positively toasty and I slept fine the rest of the night. I didn’t have time to air out my stuff the next morning but I got to camp early the next day and was fine the rest of the trip.

I have used both that bivy and sleeping bag together and with other sleeping setups and never had a problem. I am confident in my gear and my experience in using it. Every now and then I just have a WTF moment.

Since we are on the topic I’ll come out and admit that I have been toying with packing a 40 degree sleeping bag for most trips now (the Marmot Atom) and the a layering system for colder weather. Like alcohol stoves, I think a good solution lies not in an individual component but in how the system interacts. Rather than pack my standard layering system and sleep in my base layer I am thinking of packing an insulation later that I can also sleep in and then pack a warmer weather sleeping bag. I mean why have that insulation sit in the backpack all night and then pack in a heavier sleeping bag? I have yet to play around with the gear I have to see what combination will work.

I mean it’s not just enough to keep you warm… you have to be able to sleep in the system as well. I have read for years about vapor barrior liners for sleeping bags, basically the opposite of breathable fabrics. Imagine a sealed bag made out of something like a space blanket. It reflects like 80% of your body heat and the sleeping bag takes care of the rest. They also trap moisture from your body inside the vapor barrior and prevent your sleeping bag from losing loft. I hear they keep you quite warm… but that they also provide for a clammy night and a cold morning when you crawl out of the thing in your humid bedclothes. I haven’t tried it because I am convinced it would work but that I just wouldn’t get a good nights sleep. If I ever do (probably will some day) I’ll do it in my backyard so that an abort won’t result in the end of a trip.
last edited: 1/07/06 8:43:52 AM”

“Jimmy san,

I had to use all the clothing in my pack to keep warm the last time I used the old "lostloft" insulated bag. My Casio watch has a thermometer. I sat it on a log and it read 23 deg F. after awhile. The water I put in my pot for making breakfast...froze over while I was lighting a fractious Whisperlite stove.

I've read about and looked at some VB bags, but I've only slept out in 8-10 degree weather a few times car camping. I had a 12 lb. Army bag, 3/8 closed cell foam pad and a 2" thick Thermarest pad in a tent for those trips. They say to use a VB bag for well below freezing temps. I think the 23 degree F. mark is the lowest for any backpack trip I've done. On that trip, if I'd of had one I'd of used it, though!

Dan”

“Interesting! I slept in an extra large, 12-13 pound, Army Surplus Bag at Mt Le Conte(GSMNP) in 5-15 degree weather. I wore most of my clothing and did keep warm. Rather than make major investments, I tend to use whatever I already have.”

“I usually just use my 15 degree down bag for everything short of Hawaii as I am a cold sleeper. In warm weather I dont bring extra clothes to sleep in, I just sleep in the buff or if there are shy campers around I sleep in my undies. In colder weather I take a seperate set of clothes to sleep in. I have my hikin' clothes and then my camp clothes as I sweat a lot hiking and when I get to camp I like to be warm and toasty right away. However, I may think about using a down 20 degree with my bivy when I do my thru hike. I am not sure yet.”

“Simple question: When's the last time your bag got wet?

Get down.”

“My last trip my down bag got wet....when a freakin tornado ripped through and II didnt have much shelter LOL!

But the chances of that happening again are slight I bet...”

“nogranola, I see your point! lol! The last time my bag got wet was in 1994. I just neededed to hear from some people who hike in the same areas that I have, and see what they had to say. I guess I'll be looking on the down side for a bag.

Thanks to everybody for your comments! Got lotsa' good stuff!

Dan”

“do let us know what you get, please?”

“Jimmy san, will do. It'll probably be after we get our tax refunds. Dan”