God brings Joy

““I do not want to debate religion, dude.

Having said that, religion does not cure all.

Reality is for those who can't handle religion.”MarkO
10:59:49 AM
1/18/06”

“MarkO -

I think the phrase "religion does not cure all" is correct.

I am not commenting on any religion. Just the relationship between us and the Lord God, Jesus Christ.

I believe that if you have a right relationship with Him, you will have true joy. It's a fulfilling joy unlike the empty joy one might find in a winning touchdown or a 6 pack.

Reality is for those who can't handle religion

Reality is what is in the Old/New testaments in my opinion. I agree "religion" is not perfect.”

“I don't think it wise to ask a priest for marriage advice any more than I would recommend asking an imaginary friend for suicide counselling.......or put a bandaid on a bullet wound.

Real human issues require real professional help.”

“"I am not commenting on any religion."

Oh yeah??
Well, I am!!

Lunch Time.......................”

“I believe you may be missing my main point MarkO. I am not saying that if you're a born-again Christian, you won't "fall" from time to time and have problems, but generally speaking, a good relationship with God will prevent you from having to seek out advice in the first place.

I've seen time and time again - a Christian has emotional issues for a period of time, but it's always corrected when they "fix" whatever problem they are having with their relationship with God. I'm not saying being a Christian is easy, it's work, but it's very much worth it.”

“Another point -

Psychologists do their thing by working on "behavior modification" as opposed to the "heart issue". In effect, it masks the problem.

(I'm generalizing, but believe this true overall. There are also some chemical issues people can have that I believe are more physical problems than mental.)

When we have a good relationship with God, we don't worry ourselves with worldly problems which typically cause depression. "Why doesn't daddy love me?", "Why did I lose my job? Am I a failure?", "Why can't I have that house?" ... Our "hearts" are changed so that we don't have those problems to begin with.

In addition, the love of God fulfills us. Have you ever felt a lot of love for somebody? Didn't it make you feel like nothing else matters? Take that time 1,000. That's the kind of joy God brings us if we let Him.”

“Religion is the only accepted contagious mental disease in the world.”

““thanx everyone for the great posts. i see a great comunity here at TT! happy to be a part of it-j”
jurbania
11:19:26 AM
1/18/06

Was that comment your idea of contributing to a "great community" jurbania? : )”

“ it's always corrected when they "fix" whatever problem they are having with their relationship with God.

I like that about xtianity - forget personal responsibility for solving whatever real-world issues are depressing you, just externalize it all on God.

My life doesn't suck because I'm an alcoholic in a bad marriage - Nay, it's because of my relationship with God!!!”

“it is well established that I have absolutely no belief in your god, any other god or any higher power.

I think it is all mythologocial bunk.


having said that:

I absolutely agree with you. I think that a Christian (or jew, or buddist) who has a good relationship with his god. Who turns to his god for comfort, solice, peace etc may have more resilence, more resources to withstand "bad times", depression etc.

Whether I believe its all crap or not, I think that it gives someone who truly does believe an advantage in fighting depression and insecurites.

Not sure if that was very articulate or not.


Basically. While I do not believe in a god, I think one of the most useful purposes that religion does serve, is that it can provide peace of mind, and balance/centering to those who do believe.”

“en fuego sarge - didnt mean to light your fire. i was just giving my opinion on the whole religion topic. is it not accepted here to disagree with some ideas that others post? i didnt attack you or anyone - just my 2 cents.”

“Seriously: Someone who threatens you with eternal damnation and suffering if you don't love them and trust them with adequate devotion strikes me as more than a little unhinged - whether or not they can deliver on their promises or threats. The notion that devoted trust and belief is the key to unraveling your problems strikes me as more than a little cultish.

Disclaimer: Not everyone who considers themselves a Christian buys into this view of God and God's threats and requirements of human beings.”

“Mutt - ?? Nobody said anything about not solving real-world problems, but only the "[that] are depressing you" part of that statement.

A good relationship with God will not erase real-world problems, but you won't be depressed over them. If anything, God promotes "resolving" real-world problems with other people.

My wife came home crying last night from the store. When she returned a coat, the cashier asked her "has this been worn?". My wife almost by reflex said "yes, once or a few times", when in reality the coat had been worn every day for 2 weeks. She felt horrible about it.

When she came home, she was crying. We first worked out her relationship with God, which made her feel much better. I explained to her that Jesus forgives her sin, so she should not question God's decision to do so. She should forgive herself as God knows best. In effect, by not accepting God's forgiveness, it's like a slap in the face to God, so to speak (I'm paraphrasing what was said) After that, she felt much better. The next immediate step was to call the clerk and apologize for what she said. She asked her for forgiveness and the "real-world" problem was resolved. She couldn't have done that if she hadn't tried to understand her relationship with God better first, she felt too much guilt. (by the way, the store's policy was not violated in any of this, the criteria for returning it was that it was clean)

We all slip-up - and it's important to resolve those "slip-ups". But for true joy, we must have a good relationship with God.”

“Actually jurbania, that violates the user agreement (see the 3rd one), but I'm not offended. Just a little ironic humor for fuego, that's all.

cheers!”

“We all slip-up - and it's important to resolve those "slip-ups". But for true joy, we must have a good relationship with God.”

Amen Sarge. Amen.”

“pedxing - This is moving the discussion a bit, but I'll bite.

Seriously: Someone who threatens you with eternal damnation and suffering if you don't love them and trust them with adequate devotion strikes me as more than a little unhinged - whether or not they can deliver on their promises or threats. The notion that devoted trust and belief is the key to unraveling your problems strikes me as more than a little cultish.

God does not threaten us with that. He just states what happens. Look at it like this ... God is everything good. If you are with God, you are at a point where everything is good, complete joy. If you reject God (notice -> YOU reject God, not the other way around), then you are at a point where there is the absense of everything good. That means, you are at a point where everything is bad. This is just the way it is, it's not a threat. Do you choose to be with God? If so, you will experience His glory, if not, you will experience the absense of everything good.

Disclaimer: Not everyone who considers themselves a Christian buys into this view of God and God's threats and requirements of human beings.

I addressed the first part above. Regarding the "requirements" of human beings, that was taken care of on the cross.”

“sarge - ok i see your point with the ironic humour. you got me on that one =) however, i did not violate the third point. here's why:
to me and many other religion is a concept. the fact that i did not specify a particular religion puts my comment into that conceptual category. Bullet-point 3 does not cover concepts.

now, i am not so blind to see the polar argument to support that fact i did indeed violate the rule. i am sure you or anyone could come up with countless ways, but i am not interested in doing that and sure dont have the time either. i only needed the piece of mind that i didnt offend you.
last edited: 1/18/06 11:26:32 AM”

“Actually I don't think jurbania's comment is any more demeaning or judgmental than anyone else's posts on this thread. However, if I did, or if anyone else did, it wouldn't really matter, since at the bottom of the User Agreements, it says "It is up to the discretion of thebackpacker.com to evaluate and act upon posters who violate these Terms of Participation."

thebackpacker.com, meaning the Good and Almighty Lord Matt.
;-)”

“...It's a fulfilling joy unlike the empty joy one might find in a winning touchdown...

i don't know what that's like, i'm a colts fan :(”

“ok jurbania

lyra - I hope you don't think I have been judgemental. In anything I have said, I have not judged anyone, just stated what I believe about one's relationship with God.”

“Free yourselves!!!

Go where your heart says, "go".......you can do it!!

There is no Dana.....only Zool!!!”

“Sarge: Do I have this right? God doesn't threaten us, he just informs us that he has created the world in a way which has those consequences?

Could he have chosen to create it any other way?”

“I think I'm on Sarge's side for once.

Personally, I have real problems with the leadership in my church - Catholic.

But, I have several friends I turn to for real important advice. And one of those is a priest friend in Flint.

And I really do think that attending mass helps to center me and pull me closer to the great cosmic reality:)

And we have great couple friends who we go out to dinner with and bounce around life tips who are members of the church(es) we attend regularly.

Of course, the second I step outside of the church I will fight like Hell to oppose my church when it meddles in politics.

But them are the breaks.

For me, being Christian ultimately means that Good will win in the end. I just choose to live in a world where that is true.”

“Sarge: Do I have this right? God doesn't threaten us, he just informs us that he has created the world in a way which has those consequences?

That is correct, from a certain perspective. Let's take this a step further. God created us to have a loving relationship with Him *insert childish giggles here*, which entails a number of things. In order for us to love God, we must "choose" to do so. What would be the point of creating something to love you if it had to love you? That would not be love at all, would it?

Now, what happens if you reject God, and don't love Him. You would not be with Him, right? I mean, isn't that what you chose? He asked you to love Him (if you didn't know that, you do now), and He loves you - so the only thing left is for you to choose to love Him and be with Him for eternity.

What's that? You don't want to? Well, what if He sends a bunch of people your way to say "Hey pedxing! You don't know what you're missing, dude. God is Great! God is Good! You should join us!"

What's that? You still don't want to be with God?

"Well, I gotta let you know dude, if you're not with God, you're not with everything that is good. The alternative is hell. I don't want you, my internet friend pedxing, to spend 1 second in hell! I care for you too much (I really do)- so let me tell you what I hear it's like. It's everything bad. If you're not with God, where all the "good" stuff is - that leaves only bad stuff. Please don't go that route. God loves you and wants you to join Him."

Consequences? Yes, there are consequences to not being with God. That's reality. I've just attempted to establish that any other reality wouldn't make much sense. God doesn't want it that way (for you to be away from Him), but the only other option is to "force" you to love Him, which I would argue defeats the whole purpose of love.”

“birch brings joy in their little mini-van”

“LOL Crash.”

“My back lawn has more realistic things to be removed than this steam.”

““Seriously: Someone who threatens you with eternal damnation and suffering if you don't love them and trust them with adequate devotion strikes me as more than a little unhinged - whether or not they can deliver on their promises or threats.”

I do a lot of support for people whop are making their way out of Christianity and the two biggest points I try to impress upon them is 1) G-d is not out to get us. Yes we must give account of our lives but in order to lose salvation and be utterly destroyed by G-d is a very hard thing to do. If a person is completely given over to evil they may be doomed but we can not say weather anyone is at that point. Not even Hitler. And 2) Leave others to their beliefs. When I left Christianity for the path of the righteous Gentile I spent way too much time and energy in anti-missionary efforts. I tell new Noahides that the best thing they can do is direct this energy into Torah study. If they throw themselves into Torah study they will gain the information they need when the missionaries come calling but they will be armed with the respect needed in dealing with people of other faiths. Even after some 10 years I fail at this if caught in the wrong mood or if I have been away from my Torah studies too long.”

“What would be the point of creating something to love you if it had to love you? That would not be love at all, would it?

The funny thing is, God - being the omnipotent/omniscient woman She is - already knows your destiny, so people really don't have free-will since their choices are already known in advance.

Silly Christians - that's a well documented paradox with very little substantive rebuttal.”

“Mutt - What????

Knowing the fate of something means you forced it to happen?

Since when?”

“Please do *not* pretend you've never seen that particular debate before.”

“I'm asking you right now Mutt. If you've seen it before then maybe you can tell me if knowing the fate of something means that you forced it to happen. Simple question.”

“Mutt, are you just trying to be a Calvinistic troll? LOL!”

“I noticed he's trying to make it about me. Must not have a valid response...”

“i did not read any of this thread other then this.

God brings Joy

he sure does, but why does he bring horror?
what great plan is that? to make an innocent suffer at the hands of others.

answer me that.”

“The alternative is to take away free will.”

“You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free. john

I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Matt.

All I know is promises like these get me through the day....simple? mabe. But I could not imagine wandering lost and alone with no purpose and no one greater than myself to reach for.
just my 2 cents......”

““he sure does, but why does he bring horror?
what great plan is that? to make an innocent suffer at the hands of others.

answer me that.”

While G-d did in fact create evil Himself this does not mean that everything that is bad is His fault. The Tanach tells us that G-d created good and life and evil and death that we may choose life. He leaves our own actions up to us and lets us deal with the consequences of those actions. If we look at most horrible things that happen there is almost always a blessing or miracle close behind it.

A lot of it has to do with our own attitudes. Case in point; two men are sharing a room in a hospital. Both have had surgery on their abdomens. Same size incision and everything. One is so glad and happy and the other one is depressed and devastated. The happy man had escaped death by an emergency appendectomy and is just happy to be alive. The other man was robbed at knife point and stabbed. His life was saved by an emergency surgery. He is bemoaning how something so terrible could have happened to him. Both men had pain, an operation and their lives were saved. So why is one happy and the other sad? Attitude.”

“I noticed he's trying to make it about me. Must not have a valid response...

Oh, right! You surely must never have heard the free-will argument for the non-existance of (xtian) God.

My bad! I mean, I shoulda known that a guy who wins cosmology debates with Ivy League physicists (guffaw!) would never have heard of such philosophy 101 esoterica.”

“If we look at most horrible things that happen there is almost always a blessing or miracle close behind it.


i guess i am finding it hard to find a blessing right now”

“Mutt, why is your argument about whether or not I've heard the argument before? How is that relevant?

Last time ... simple question ... "does knowing the fate of something mean that you forced it to happen?"”

“i guess i am finding it hard to find a blessing right now

You have to look in the right place. Look "up".”

“Because of this, Sarge:

Knowing the fate of something means you forced it to happen?

Since when?

You could have simply acknowledged the well known argument and either linked to your favorite rebuttal or responded in kind. Instead you chose to obfuscate in a sophomoric manner. ETA: or were you simply doing your old dog and pony of using a Socratic-esque method of evasion?
last edited: 1/19/06 9:38:03 AM”

“If you walk infront of a big truck you will be hit and killed......simple fact, no threat. you are the one who decides to walk into the path of the truck. Free Will, plain and simple.

again, just my take on it...”

“sorry sagre, i did and i only found myself asking WHY.

There is no answer and never will be..”

“"i guess i am finding it hard to find a blessing right now”

It's coming. Sometimes ya just have to see it. The greatest thing is we have the ability to bring it ourselves. One of the greatest things we can do is charity. When things seem their worst is a very important time to do charity of any time. Even the smallest show of kindness can totally turn your life around just when you think it’s falling down around your ears. Life is up and down. This is why many Chassidic Jews say the blessing “May G-d bless you from strength to strength.” To each other.

If you're down this may all come across as bull crap lip service. Ya just have to try it and see what happens.”

“What's mapleleaf moaning about? What happened?”

“good point nig.
it is work related. so i guess maybe today something good will happen.”

“Sometimes “Why?” is the wrong question. Questions like, “Did I cause this? How could I avoid it in the future? What is the outcome of this?” Sometimes we know. Sometimes we don’t. Sometimes we aren’t meant to know.”

“nigal I had nothing to do with this. take my word on that!”