Mohammed Cartoon Controversy

“For Omaha and Arctlite: I agree with you both that there have been far more intentionally extreme and offensive depictions of sacered Christian images. The "piss Christ" is an example. It was basically a coarse insult placed in a gallery - I saw no creativity, no artistic value to it. It is only power was in its outrageousness. I wouldn't want my tax money or charitable donations going to any exhibition that included that.

The Madonna with dung was different. I'm sure it offended, but it was designed to do more than offend. In Africa, Elephant dung is seen as connected to fertility and the artist used graphic and embodied images of fertility - he was creating his own fertile, pagan Africanized Madonna figure. I saw large scale pictures of it, it was art and it had a beauty to it. I'd be wary of having government money support an exhibition including it - but I wouldn't stop paying admission to a gallery or resign my membership over it.”

“I'm talking about a majority of Muslims that aren't doing anything violent and how the media focuses on the violence.

Well duh. Muslims going about there daily lives, praying to mecca, grabbing a coffee is not news. You burn down the danish embassy, it's news.”

“What the hell do Danes need embassies for anyway?

:)”

“"Well duh. Muslims going about there daily lives, praying to mecca, grabbing a coffee is not news. You burn down the danish embassy, it's news."

So they're havin' a little Danish with their coffee??”

“I love Danishes”

“i dont see how that cartoon is specifically mohammed, unless there is some symbol that i cant see. to me it looks like it could be any radical moslem fundie. i dont have a problem with it in and of itself, there have certainly been way more offensive things about religion circling about, but given today's political climate, printing it was downright foolish. piss off the christian fundies, and theyll maybe boycott and protest. moslem fudies will blow your ass up.”

““Those Islamist do not speak for all."

That dog don't hunt anymore. Everyone used to say, "But the Palestinian Authority doesn't reflect all Palestinians. They aren't bad.". Until the voted in HAMAS. Violence is a part of Arab Islamic culture. A fact of life.”

“Violence is part of their scripture. None of these actions should be a surprise to anyone. Read these quotes in their original context and their meaning is clear.

When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.

Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number.

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.”

“Pedxing, I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about your tax dollars supporting that “artistic endeavor.” But when government gets involved with supplying society’s wants (like the arts) you and I have very little say in how that money is spent.

I’m glad you enjoyed Mary covered in poop. To each his own. I’m also glad that you would pay to see it out of your own pocket. Hopefully my tax dollars don’t go to pay for more like it.




“… I do look for the "teachable Moments" in situations - and wish that some in the Islamic world might have some insight into the problems of how they represent the world.”

pedxing


Bwaaaahahahaha! Ped, you and I suffer from the same disease. I have the same wish, but even in the microcosm of this site I have discovered one truth:

Very few people wish to honestly examine themselves.


Most people seek out confirmation for their beliefs instead of challenges. I have asked questions about people’s beliefs and I often get angry or defensive responses. I have been insulting about people’s beliefs and that usually brings an angry retort and a closed mind.

I don’t believe that many in Europe are willing to look at their own prejudice towards “outsiders.” The riots in France exposed a problem that has been brewing in Europe for decades. I think that Mutt’s first posted article is an excellent analysis.

I don’t believe that many Muslims are willing to confront the anger in their midst. Nor does the majority seem to want to honestly examine from where comes that anger.

From my perspective it all comes down to my observations that very few people want to honestly examine themselves, their beliefs, and their motives. Over, and over, I have observed that many people would much rather react emotionally and blame others.

I’ve heard much frustration, in political arguments, over the nurturing of this attitude (biting his tongue) as possibly being the unquestioned consequence of the motivations of certain people.


I don’t foresee any “quick fixes.” Get better at your job!!!”

“Maybe the rioters are the same people that bombed, and destroyed the three giant Budda statues carved in a mountainside in Afganistan a few years back. Where were the outrage then?”

“I find the government funding of art as nothing short of ridiculous. If an artist is an artist then won’t they do what they do no matter what? Isn’t art done for the joy of it? And if someone does want or expect to make a living at art they will find someone to buy their stuff.”

“Over, and over, I have observed that many people would much rather react emotionally and blame others.
7:18:55 PM
2/05/06

Well screw you Arc-boy, that's because of people like you!

....Hey - don't even go there!

(do you mean like that, for example?)
last edited: 2/06/06 7:57:54 AM”

““Over, and over, I have observed that many people would much rather react emotionally and blame others."

That’s one of the things that amaze me about Jews. They don’t get worked up easily. Last summer when the IDF was dragging Jews from their homes in Gush Katiff they were singing songs, telling the soldiers they loved them, making them tea. A few years ago someone made a movie about gay orthodox Jews in a favorable light and rather then going nuts the orthodox Jews would all get together and watch the movie and then discuss it.

One story from WWII told the story about how a bunch of rabbis in one of the camps got all the Jews together so they could hold a type of mock trial. They put G-d on trial, debated the case and found G-d guilty for their situation. And then they finished in time for evening prayers.”

“I find it all completely immature but then again I was raised in a society that allows divergent ideas and expression.

For every one of your most deeply held, precious and sacred positions, there is a multitude of people who think those positions are ignorant, silly, (insert more negative terms here), worth ridicule and have no compunction against loudly telling you so.

Understand it, accept it, find your peace with it and move on.

Isn’t art done for the joy of it? -Nigal

No, not always. I could go on for pages on this topic alone.
last edited: 2/06/06 8:45:06 AM”

“Thanks for the cartoon violin... I've been looking for it since it first hit the news. That is a wonderful depiction of Mahmutt.

I”

“Violence is a part of Arab Islamic culture. A fact of life.”
Nigal
6:10:50 PM
2/05/06


This coming from a Country of Quakers???????”

“"This coming from a Country of Quakers???????”

If ya can't see what the facts of life are there (beheadings, revenge killings of women, executions of women, on and on) then no amount of words or debate from me will bring you around.

In general:

I do find it wierd that the liberal progressive types who protest and march and scream for a Palestinian state still don't see that Islamic states stand for nothing they do (freedom of speech, women's rights, gay rights, rights to an abortion, ect.).”

“If ya can't see what the facts of life are there (beheadings, revenge killings of women, executions of women, on and on) then no amount of words or debate from me will bring you around.

Sounds like the Catholic Inquisition or the witch hunts in this country in the 1600’s.

It still doesn't make it right.”

“(freedom of speech, women's rights, gay rights, rights to an abortion, ect.).”

You talking about Saudi Arabia? Indonesia? Maybe India?

I'm not really arguing with you on specifics, Nigal. It just seems like the "conservative right" is lumping all Muslims into terrroristic berzerkers.

On another point, a few Islamic states have become secular, no? They did this through no (overt, at least) intervention from the Western World.

Certainly our Invasion of Iraq has caused an increase in "fundemental radicalism", no?

The worse thing we can do is force a culture to believe what we believe.”

“I'm gettin' great ideas for cartoons......

Hmmmm, Jerry Falwell and Moe Hamed are sittin' in a bar, havin' a drink...........

In walks Juan Motime.......”

“"The worse thing we can do is force a culture to believe what we believe.”

Jumpin' Jesus! Reread this very slowly. Do you not see the folly of your own words? One of the main points of Islam is the forcing of their beliefs on others. That is why the majority of Islamic nations use Islamic law. If you equate our trying to give people the freedom to choose for themselves in this same light, well as I said...

"If ya can't see what the facts of life are there (beheadings, revenge killings of women, executions of women, on and on) then no amount of words or debate from me will bring you around." ”

“FYI here is a site with all the cartoons:

http://cryptome.org/muhammad.htm”

“Is that what the fundies are gettin' their undies in a wad over???

I want more and funnier stuff, dammitt!!!”

“I'm talking about a majority of Muslims that aren't doing anything violent and how the media focuses on the violence. - Y2

This is the problem with the loony left. They ignore that the so-called "moderate" muslims fully support the actions of the extremists. (Like Nigal said, look at Palestine/Hamas for a concrete example.) That effectively erases much of the distinction between violent and nonviolent muslim.”

“Sarge, if I knew of any muslims on this forum, be sure that I'd be insulting their religion.

Mohammad was a baby-raping murderous scumbag. There, how's that?

well, actually, it's not an insult if it's true...”

“

[16:126] And if you punish, you shall inflict an equivalent punishment. But if you resort to patience (instead of revenge), it would be better for the patient ones.



[39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.



[3:159] It was mercy from GOD that you became compassionate towards them. Had you been harsh and mean-hearted, they would have abandoned you. Therefore, you shall pardon them and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them….



... He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones. (7:157)



Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible
response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
None can attain this except those who steadfastly persevere. None can attain this except those who
are extremely fortunate.(41:34-35)”

“Hey kids! Be the first on your block to get your very own fatwah!
http://www.stripcreator.com/”

“This is the type of stuff that makes me insane.

I was talking about it with the guys I ride with on Saturday (40 miles . ..beentoo long since I road that distance).


Look.

THERE IS NO F-ING GOD. Period.


All this crap . ..all these rules. All these stupid f-inf arguent about insulting a god or gods and their messengers (be it Mohhamememd or jesus or buddha or whomever)

its all just man made crap. Its a fiction.


We have moronic stupid towel heads buring sh-t up because someone drew a cartoon of the messenger of their fictional myth.

WHO GIVES a crap???

i hate to sound like that pissant wimp John Lennon . . .but imagine of their was no religion.

This is yet another prime example of why religion, in all its forms, faiths and constituents is a bucket of absolute crap.

There is nothing that seperates these moronic backward anit-women, anti-civliation anti-education- anti everything f-ing towelheads from the f-ing religious right in this country.

They are pat robertson, jerry fawlle, james dobson and vice versus.

Its the same thing.


and its all based on myths . .. and a desire to grab power.

What a bunch of morons.”

“Good post Lee, although taking a strong atheist stance while denouncing other faiths strikes me as a little ironic.”

“I was gonna go back and edit the misspells. But I think they add something.


You should picture me foaming at the mouth, with my eyes rolling a bit . . .

almost burning with a . ...dare I say it .a religous fervor..


the guys I was riding with sure backed off a little.


The irony .. .or sadness or whatever of world events, world power grabs . .being driven under the guise of religiosity just makes me insane.”

“nicely timed post . . .

I caught myself too . . .

"You should picture me foaming at the mouth, with my eyes rolling a bit . . .

almost burning with a . ...dare I say it .a religous fervor..”

“There is a G-d. Lee just hasn't let go of his humanistic pride and ego to recognize Him and to follow Him in the one true way.


I'll pray for you Lee...”

“heh, good one nigal.”

“Since when has the loony left ever let any facts disturb their 'reasoning'.

*Sigh*
Just once, I would like to see then not support the bad guys.
Any enemy of 'Bush' is their friend.”

“Nigal --

Thanks. That one had me ROTFLMAO.

When I attended Youth Pilgrim Fellowship in high School (congregational church Sunday evening youth program). I was the token aetheist "trying to find God". I was their project. I was just trying (successfully I might add) to get into the pants of the girl I was dating who was a member. They all used to "pray for me" ("I'll pray for you Lee" they used to say. And me . .i'd be thinking . ..."no, you better pray for her!!"



Stovie --

I sure hope your note:

Since when has the loony left ever let any facts disturb their 'reasoning'.

*Sigh*
Just once, I would like to see then not support the bad guys.
Any enemy of 'Bush' is their friend.”


Wasn't in response to my diatribe.

I have no use for ANY religion . ..east west muslim christian.


These flags buring mullahs should have a cruise shot up their butts. that would give them soemthing to think about.”

“teehee!”

“On the one hand I share Lee's view of religion. It's all just a fiction created by humans to explain their existence and to bring control to the unruly masses. This is in many ways a legitimate exercise. The spector of oppressed people becoming enraged to the point of violence and murder over perceived slights to (as I see) a fictional god is ridiculous.

On the other hand, people are or should be free to believe in god or gods and ohters should respect those rights. I've seen the cartoons and while I think that they are harmless, others do not share my view. Muslims have a right to voice their dislike of these cartoons. But that's where it stops.

They are for the most part an oppressed people who have been led to beleive that outsiders are to blame for all their problems. The cartoons feed right into the needs of the corrupt, dishonest, autocratic rulers of most muslim nations.

An apology for any offense taken was appropiate but nothing more. Islam needs to grow up. The EU should stand their ground and ignore these tirades. Bill Clinton should apologize to Denmark for not supporting them and freedom of expression.

As far sending a cruise missile up their ass Lee, nah. That's what they would want....more boogie men to blame.

How about we get over oil and let them eat it?”

“Interesting take on the cartoon controversy. This says it is essentially an orchestrated outrage to deflect Muslim anger over Saudi Arabia's negligence that led to all those deaths during the Hajj.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/5/13149/60748”

“I'd say that's how it works for most muslim anger, violin. Religion is an evil thing.”

“Jeez, aren't they always stampeding during the Haj??

Hell, ya gots to go the heaven if ya die like that.”

“Damn Mutt, what's with that kid's jazz hands? Haha!”

“That is interesting Violin. It could explain why the story built the way it did. The odd thing is that people die during the peak of the Hajj every year and the numbers didn't seem as bad to me as some years.

It would also be another example of dictatorial regimes manipulating Islamic fervor for their own ends.
last edited: 2/06/06 4:11:57 PM”

“Besides that, it was obviousely Allah's will.”

“It's one thing to talk about facts and denounce a group of people's activities, but the TOP clearly states:

"Posts that demean a country, nation, religion, or particular group of people" (are not acceptable)

"demean" means to "debase":To lower in character, quality, or value; degrade.

I think there is plenty of room for debate and disagreement without demeaning the various religions in discussion.”

“Jesus sucks.”