Mohammed Cartoon Controversy

“The whole debate over the supposedly defensive cartoons is interesting but limited. Basically one (Danish?) paper published some derogatory cartoons featuring the prophet Mohammed and other Islamic figures. Some Moslems protested biterly, demonstrated and made threats. Most Western Pols criticized the cartoons. A number of European papers, apparently striking a blow for free speech in solidarity with the first paper also published the cartoons. It leads to an interesting debate as to what is more important to promote: tolerance or free speech. Given our war in Iraq and the war on terror, there are also reasons for not wanting to unnecessarily piss off Moslems.

Yet there is another dimension: Arab papers, Persian papers and other Moslem news media present disgusting, slanderous and hateful images of other religeons and their practices. Yet, we don't here much complaint from Western leaders or Moslem leaders. Isn't this an opportunity to raise that issue? Shouldn't tolerance be mutual? Shouldn't Moslem leaders insist on tolerance in their communities and respect from their communities towards others, even as they advocate for respect and tolerance toward Islam and Moslems.

Imagine the reaction in the Moslem world if another religious group did something to Moslem holy sites along the lines of what the Taliban did to the statures of Buddha?”

“pedx stirring the pot again.
naughty, naughty. ;-)”

“In-depth from Stratfor:

EU: Of Cartoons and What it Means to Be 'European'
February 02, 2006 19 18 GMT

Summary

Muslim responses to cartoons in a Danish newspaper caricaturing the
Prophet Mohammed have risen to a fever pitch, encouraging a
counterreaction of amused indignation from the European press. The
rising clamor not only reveals a widening breach between Muslim
immigrants and non-Muslim Europeans, it also presages a reckoning in
which demographic pressures threaten underlying European national
identities.

Analysis

Between the hullabaloo of the Hamas election victory and the
entertainment of the Italian electoral cycle, a new issue is
occupying the front pages of the Middle Eastern and European media:
"blasphemous" cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.

The Danish daily Jyllands-Posten first published the cartoons in
question in September 2005. As time has progressed, the images have
led to a combination of political sanctions and economic retaliation
from various Muslim entities demanding retractions and apologies, up
to and including at least one embassy closure, two ambassadorial
recalls and an attack against an EU office in the Gaza Strip. All
European governments that have addressed the issue have extolled the
right to free speech, while calling on their media to show restraint
and sensitivity on the issue.

Many European media outlets have flatly ignored that call, and the
cartoons have been republished in Austrian, French, Spanish, Swiss,
Hungarian, Italian, Norwegian, Dutch and German publications. In the
case of the daily France Soir, that decision resulted in the firing
of the managing editor by the paper's Egyptian owner, a case that
only increased the European press' indignation. Shortly thereafter,
Le Monde ran a sketch of a man whose beard and turban were made up of
lines saying "I must not draw Mohammed."

Beyond the seemingly airy charges and countercharges of cultural
insensitivity (on both sides), blasphemy and cultural immaturity lies
a much deeper concern: This is actually a serious issue with the
possibility to spark widespread violence, and ultimately a broad
European crisis.

Remember that a mere three months ago a police investigation into
alleged crimes resulted in some Muslim youths fleeing an alleged
pursuit that ended in their electrocution. The result was three weeks
of race riots throughout France, without many of the facts of the
case ever being established. This time around, the cartoons in
question have created a serious enough media stir that Moroccan and
Algerian authorities have even confiscated some French publications
to prevent their distribution.

Muslims are by far the largest religious minority in Christian
Europe, and Muslims of various stripes make up the single largest
ethnic minority in nearly all European states. No European state,
however, has been particularly successful in integrating those
minorities into their cultural mainstream. Partially, this is due to
the somewhat clannish and closed nature of many Muslim societies, but
it has just as much -- if not more -- to do with the way the
Europeans view themselves.

In Europe the concept of democracy is specifically one of national
self-determination, the idea that nationality is the basis of the
modern democratic European state. In contrast, U.S. democracy is
based on the concept of one person, one vote. The distinction is far
more than an academic one. In the United States, anyone who chooses
to become American can do so (although that does not mean that the
process is either easy or painless). In Europe, however, while an
ethnic non-European can attain citizenship, that does not mean that
he or she will be accepted by the Europeans as one of the club. Put
another way, the nationalism in the United States is of a civic type,
as opposed to Europe's ethnic-based identity.

The rise of the European Union and the halting development of a weak
"European" identity has somewhat diminished this exclusivity -- but
only somewhat. Most "old" EU states maintain strict curbs on the
ability of "new" EU citizens to cross their borders to seek work. In
fact, the fear of an invading army of "Polish plumbers" contributed
mightily to the defeat of the European constitution in a French
referendum -- and that was a case in which one European Roman
Catholic nationality was dealing with another European Roman Catholic
nationality. Ultimately, European mental barriers against ethnic non-
Europeans are as strong as ever.

What is notable is neither the Muslim outrage nor the European media
counteroutrage, but the fact that Europe has remained so calm for so
long.

These identity issues are so entrenched as to be perennially
problematic -- and will only become more so. The reason is simple:
demographics. Declining birthrates among ethnic Europeans mean that
nearly all European states have a slimming demographic profile, and a
very real need to import labor -- otherwise, Muslims would have never
been allowed entry in the first place. Muslim immigrants, by
contrast, have high birthrates, and thus form an ever-higher
proportion of the workforce and populations of European states.

And unlike Latino immigrants to the United Sates, who largely aspire
to participate in the American dream, many Muslims see no reason to
integrate into the European societies in which they find themselves
-- and most Europeans do not want them to anyway. The result is an
ever-building pressure that sooner or later will result in a train
crash between the seemingly intractable forces of European identity
and Muslim demography. In the past, Europe has dealt with similar
issues of a minority's excessive influence in the ruling ethnicity's
collective mind. These chapters are not among the proudest of
European history.”

“The Mohammed Cartoon and the Widening European-Muslim Divide
February 02, 2006 18 39 GMT

The owner of the French newspaper France Soir fired the paper's
managing editor Feb. 2 for reprinting controversial editorial
cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed wearing a bomb-shaped turban.
The cartoons, first published in September 2005 by Danish paper
Jyllands-Posten, have sparked a series of protests by Muslims in
Europe and the Middle East -- adding to simmering European-Muslim
tensions.

In reaction to the cartoons, Syria and Saudi Arabia have recalled
their ambassadors to Denmark, Libya closed its embassy in Copenhagen
and Muslims have led a boycott of Danish products in some Muslim
countries. In Britain, the radical Islamist group Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-
Jamaah has called for demonstrations at the Danish, Norwegian,
French, German and Italian embassies to protest publication of the
cartoons in those countries.

The most serious reaction to date occurred in the Gaza Strip on Feb.
2, when gunmen from Palestinian militant groups stormed EU offices
demanding an apology for the cartoons. The European Union and its
member states donate $600 million in annual aid to the Palestinian
National Authority. In addition, the Palestinian Popular Resistance
Committees and the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade said Feb. 2 they will
consider anyone from Denmark, France and Norway to be a legitimate
target for retaliation unless the countries close their offices in
the Palestinian territories. An al-Aqsa member told The Associated
Press that terrorists are searching apartments in the West Bank city
of Nablus looking for foreigners to kidnap.

Parallels can be drawn between the controversy and other instances of
Muslim outrage over depictions of their religion in Europe. Most
notable is the 1989 fatwa issued by Iranian spiritual leader
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini urging Muslims to kill British author
Salman Rushdie, whose book, "The Satanic Verses," contains elements
considered blasphemous by some Muslims. Angry Muslims killed some of
the book's translators and burned stores selling the book in some
countries. A more recent example of Muslim wrath was the November
2004 slaying by a militant Muslim of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh,
whose documentary about violence against Muslim women contained
depictions of Koranic verses on female bodies. In this latest
controversy, it should be noted that Muslims would consider any
caricature of Mohammed as blasphemous.

Should the controversy continue to escalate -- which is likely as
more newspapers reprint the cartoons -- protest marches could turn
into riots, and offending newspaper offices could be burned or
editors killed.

The fact that outrage over the cartoons did not surface until several
months after the cartoons' first publication suggests that some
Muslims in Europe were looking for a reason to vent frustration over
their economic and social situations, especially since European
countries have been slow to respond to simmering tensions. Europeans,
meanwhile, have grown less tolerant of Muslim immigrants in the wake
of recent riots in France's Muslim communities and terrorist attacks
in Spain and Britain.

This controversy already has added to the animosity felt on both
sides of the growing European-Muslim divide. Should the protests turn
violent, the gap will widen further.”

“I wonder how long it will take the left to blame the right and the right to blame the left on this one?”

“#&%!$ em is what I say.”

“About the only good thing is that this time it's the Danish and not us.

Remember how many people here felt about the crucifix in a jar of piss? This is nothing but bigoted provocation:

”

“Anyone see that Tom Toles Cartoon that caused the Military brass to get their panties in a wad?”

“Yeah, the cartoons are out of line, but I don't think anyone should be bullied by bunch of Islamists on this one.
Threaten to bomb the EU mission in Gaza, well pull out the EU funding for the Palestinians then.
Sure the cartoons were provokative, but I don't see why Muslim laws about no image of Mohammed should apply around the world.”

“This is nothing but bigoted provocation:

Hardly.”

“Thousands dead in 9/11, hundreds killed in various terror actions all over the world, schools, Christian churches, destroyed and burned. Three little Christian Girls BEHEADED in Indonesia (on their way to school)......And NOW this 14th century, male power hungry, psychotic group of third world nutburgers are MAD>...???

BITE ME, I lost 300 brothers in September of 2001. Three were close friends so here is my plan, print pictures of MO and his two brothers Larhamed, and Curlhamed nailing pigs. Piss them off good.

GOD THAT FELT GOOD!”

“I was listening to Reza Aslan on All Things Considered on NPR on the way home from work.

Your first post is a good article, Mutt. Aslan basically had the same perspective. He said that what got his blood boiling was not the supposed insult to Mohammad, but that the cartoons appeared to be done deliberately to provoke ethnic tensions that have been simmering in Europe for some time now.

Once again, it appears I agree with violin. Somebody shoot me now!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5188026


Reza Aslan is a scholar of religions and author of No god but God: The Origins, Evolution, and Future of Islam.

Reza Aslan earned a Bachelor of Arts in Religion from Santa Clara University, a Master of Theological Studies from Harvard University, a Master of Fine Arts in Fiction from the University of Iowa, and is currently a Doctoral Candidate in History of Religions at the University of California, Santa Barbara. Until recently, he was both Visiting Assistant Professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies at the University of Iowa and the Truman Capote Fellow in Fiction at the Iowa Writers’ Workshop. He has served as a legislative assistant for the Friends’ Committee on National Legislation in Washington D.C., and was elected president of Harvard’s Chapter of the World Conference on Religion and Peace, a United Nations Organization committed to solving religious conflicts throughout the world. He has written for the Los Angeles Times, the New York Times, Slate, Boston Globe, the Washington Post, and the Nation and has appeared on Meet The Press, Hardball, The Daily Show, and Nightline. No god but God is his first book. Born in Iran, he now lives in Santa Monica and New Orleans.”

“Muslims think their religion trumps freedom of the press in other countries. Muslims thinks their religion allows them to say, write and do hateful thinks about other religions. So all those European countries that critized U.S. middle east policies will now be the target of muslim wrath. That should make life a little safer in the U.S.”

“Amen to that, brother prosecutor.”

“I dunno, I think it's a storm in a teacup. You invade and occupy Iraq - it's a little different that printing a cartoon. They'll revert back to the US soon enough.”

“Remember a few years back a Japanese tire manufacturer produced a tire that happens to have a tire print that looks like Muslim writing? Well those Islam/Muslim countries threatened the company and/or Japan too. The company had to scrap the whole line.

I bet Muslim newspapers print derogatory cartoons on other religions too. Clean up their own backyard first.....”

“yeah cause they'd never do that to any other group...

”

“Muslims probably burned them there Alabama churches.”

“Nigal - that Cartoon is from the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, no?

How about some context?????”

“Syrians Torch Embassies Over Caricatures

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/religion”

“Bear - I don't know about that cartoon, but there is a long history in the Arab and non-Arab moslem world of portraying jews as monkeys, pigs and vermin and echoing some of the worst anti-jewish Nazi propaganda.”

“I find much to disagree with in this article, but the author makes her case well and makes some strong points. Perhaps Nigal would approve?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1138622536769”

“It is interesting that some Europeans have chosen to confront the backward sensibilities of the radical Muslims in their midst. I hope that these conflicts can be resolved in a reasonable manner, through dialogue rather than bloodshed.”

“Bear Magnet: Here's an article on anti-semetism in the Arab media that contains Nigal's cartoon (among others) with some discussion:

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-21.htm


Here's some collections of stuff from the Arab media (you can click on countries and then scroll down for the cartoons for link #1):

http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/arab/as_arabmedia_12_03/asam_egypt_12_03.asp

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/spreading_anti_semitism.asp”

“ped - That's why I find it odd that its in JCPA”

“Aren't these the same people that burn our flag and stuffed images of the president?

They're upset? Who cares?”

“Bear - I'm sure it was at a JCPA site documenting anti-Jewish bigotry. A lot of pro-Israel people have been tearing their hair out for years over the fact that the West just doesn't get the fact that extreme anti-Semetism is a big problem in the Arab world and a major obstacle to peace. Anti-Zionism and anti-Jewish bigotry are not the same thing, the latter energizes some forms of the former.

I'm an eager critic of Israeli policy. I think the Iron fist, the counter terrorism, the collective punishment were all flawed policies - but I reject the moral equivalency stuff that says PLO/Hamas and Israel play on the same level. The virulence of Jew hating and genocidal attitudes towards Jews in the Moslem and Arab world is stunning.

I think the extreme reaction to these cartoons is an opportunity to point out to Moslems who complain that they need to get their house in order. Sure the Danish cartoon was hateful and provovative, but its polite compared to some of the stuff Arab leaders accept and that gets into the government controlled press.”

“It's also polite compared to a lot of what is said on here about the Christianity and it's God. Imagine if they were trailtalkers and Christian, but fought back the way they do. You guys would seriously be sleeping with a loaded pistol on your hikes.”

“It would be nice if all this religious bickering could be worked out in the funny papers and the angry fundies could end up laughing it off.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!”

“It's also polite compared to a lot of what is said on here about the Christianity and it's God.
Sarge
9:39:48 PM
2/04/06

Perhaps, but if so it's also polite compared to what is said about Liberals, non-Christians and Pagans around here - but fuego threads on TT are not famous for politeness.”

“I follow tt pretty closely and I don't recall anybody busting on non-Christians or pagans, but I'm sure I could have missed it, especially because I try to put the trolls on ignore.

Liberals ... from what I've seen (off of trailtalk), they do react like these guys.
last edited: 2/04/06 8:57:30 PM”

“Ped beat me to it darn it! LOL! The thing I don't get is why is pointing out the hatred of Islam so unPC? Why are the Muslims so 'untouchable'? Why is it that one cartoon runs in one paper and all the Muslims go coocoo for coco puffs yet when the president of Iran calls for the utter destruction of Israel no one says a peep?

Here's my favorite cartoon that shown on Iranian state tv. It shows the loving kindness of the Muslim people towards others...ok, actually it's a kid's cartoon showing the virtues of being a suicide bomber.


http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=87439&ak=null

And go here to see what the Arab media says when they don't think the world is listening.

http://www.memri.org/index.html”

“"Why are the Muslims so 'untouchable'?"

Cause the crazy ones will blow you and themselves up to prove a point.”

“Ped beat you to it Nigal? So where is the bashing of non-Christians and pagans on trailtalk? I have bacpac on ignore, so maybe he's doing it, but I haven't seen it. Saying it doesn't make it so.”

““Ped beat you to it Nigal?”

“Nigal - that Cartoon is from the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, no?

How about some context?????”
bearmagnet
3:51:06 PM
2/04/06

“Bear Magnet: Here's an article on anti-semetism in the Arab media that contains Nigal's cartoon (among others) with some discussion:

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-21.htm”

pedxing
7:26:31 PM
2/04/06

“Ped beat me to it darn it! LOL!”

Nigal
8:35:04 AM
2/05/06”

““I think the extreme reaction to these cartoons is an opportunity to point out to Moslems who complain that they need to get their house in order. Sure the Danish cartoon was hateful and provovative, but its polite compared to some of the stuff Arab leaders accept and that gets into the government controlled press.”

“Perhaps, but if so it's also polite compared to what is said about Liberals, non-Christians and Pagans around here - but fuego threads on TT are not famous for politeness.”

Pedxing



Pedxing, the current cartoons are also probably more polite than the images of some artwork and the way it portrays Christianity. Most human interaction is not famous for politeness, despite efforts by the political correctness police to have us conform to their view.

When I react poorly to criticism, the first thing I ask myself is why? What is it that I might be doing wrong that makes me react so strongly to this? Do you believe this is the approach most people take?


I notice that some people think it's perfectly fine to publically criticize organized religion. Some people have favored artwork that, under "freedom of artistic expression", creates derogatory images of Christianity (Clinton Fein, Andres Serrano, Damien Casey) with artworks such as “Piss Christ” and Mary covered in excrement. It is my understanding that some people think these works provoke “meaningful” dialog. I’m not sure that any meaningful dialog has come from these works of art.

In fact, Christianity seems to be a favorite target for anger and bigotry from some in this country. Undoubtedly there are some Christians who act with intolerance and bigotry. Undoubtedly many non-Christians respond in kind. I’m not sure that any meaningful dialog has come from this approach.




Pedxing, I doubt you’re saying, “They do it to others, so others are justified doing it to them.”

Do you believe that the cartoons will promote meaningful dialog about the need for Muslims “to get their house in order”?




Don't you like my politcal correctness in not using the "L" word?”

“Lesbian?”

“I have been a big critic of Christianity for years now and I have been involved in anti-missionary efforts and have helped bring some people out of it and along the way I have had times when I’ve been less than kind in doing so. My main problem is with some Christians and not Christianity itself. But I have come to learn that if there is an attribute of the One True G-d in something, say some goodness in Christianity, then I am not to abuse or insult it as it’s going to be the same as insulting/blaspheming G-d.

And just as some Zionist Christians are coming around and helping Judaism and Israel, so too am I trying to be better in the other direction and defend Christianity where I see fit and important.”

“Yeah, Lesbian. Pedxing is a lesbian trapped in a man's body, ya goofball.
last edited: 2/05/06 9:51:42 AM”

“These cartoons weren't helpful, but it's interesting really. Images of the profit were essentially banned to stop idolotry, but I can't see how these can be deemed as idols.

To be honest, it seems to me that these radicals are ready to jump on anything. America for one will never be able to do anything right, and even things which most will see as good, will be condemned by some as some conspiracy or another. Protesting at freedom of speech in another nation is typical of where these people are. So I say #&%!$ em. A state doesn't do enough to protect an embassy, then pull out of the country. The EU needs to react as one here. Stop all aid and assistance these countries get. Leave them to it.”

“Thanks for the context!

There's a Mosque in the "Greater" DC area (Eastern Shore of MD?) that has been vandalized many a time, worshippers harrassed. The Initial benefactor of the Mosque was Saddam when he was our ally.

The Mosque is in a predominately white community, of course.

Recently, there were some Southern Baptists churches that were vandalized in the inner burbs of DC. Maryland, I believe.

So we can draw the same conclusions regarding White Christian Radicals as one would do with Muslims reacting violently to those cartoons?”

“Well I haven't confirmed this, but I saw on someone's website this morning that Denmark will be assuming the presidency of the Security Council when the question of Iran's nuclear ambitions is addressed (in March). This could help to explain why this pot is being stirred now, instead of when the cartoons were originally published (September 2005). It is widely reported that a couple of radical imams recently brought this issue to the forefront in the Middle East, adding three much more provocative cartoons to the collection in the process - for example, one depicts the prophet with the face of a pig. Perhaps they are trying to incite worldwide Muslim opinion against the Danes, in order to affect the Security Council's decisions regarding Iran? Interesting to say the least.”

“um, bearmagnet, frankly you are being silly. There is a huge difference in degree, between the actions of Christian conservatives in the US and radical Muslims in the Middle East (and even in Europe). In spite of the intentionally offensive nature of "Piss Christ" and "Dung Virgin" I don't recall any Christian fatwas being issued by the likes of Billy Graham or any other leading evangelicals (and I don't count dear old Pat Robertson among mainstream Christians, that guy is a nut case). Of course you will now say that abortion clinic bombers are equivalent to embassy-torchers, but I think it is safe to say that such actors are a tiny, insane minority of Christians in the US, and you are still free to spew your nonsense whenever and wherever you please, without the worry of being beheaded by radical Christians.”

“I wasn't gonna mention abortion clinic bombings but thanks for the suggestion!

;)

Seriously though,

I'm talking about a majority of Muslims that aren't doing anything violent and how the media focuses on the violence.

And I do like pointing out that religious hate crimes in this Nation is still around but we don't attack "Christianity" for it.

There are no Christian Fatwas. Thank God for Seperation of church and state, eh?”

“The only comparison you might accurately draw between the Christian church and modern Islam is if you compared today’s Islam and the Christian church of the middle ages. The biggest threat christianity posses is a Jesus theme park in Israel. The Islamists threaten to kill us all. You judge who is worse.
last edited: 2/05/06 12:17:23 PM”

“Which Islamist?”

“Oh I dunno, ever heard of Osama Bin Laden, or Al Zarqawi? The president of Iran, Ahmada-what's-his-name? You know, the guy who wants to nuke Israel?”

“Those Islamist do not speak for all.

So its more scary when Islamist call for our deaths than when a garden variety dictator/country calls for our deaths?

You called Pat Robertson a nut case what would you call Osama?”

“Arc:

I'm not sure of your point exactly, but let me clarify mine.

I don't think the cartoons were helpful and constructive. I do look for the "teachable Moments" in situations - and wish that some in the Islamic world might have some insight into the problems of how they represent the world.”