RIP Personal Responsibility

“Was this stupid day on TT and no one bothered to tell me?

Seriously XL, you're #&%!$ing retarded.”

“It was even more stupid than usual.”

“YOU know..reading the total ignorance here on the loss of personal freedom reminds me of something


There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some
>> Exchange
>> Students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the
>> Prof
>> noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back
>> and
>> stretching as if his back hurt.
>>
>> The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student
>> told him
>> he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting
>> communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his
>> country's
>> government and install a new communist government.
>>
>> In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a
>> strange
>> question. He asked, "Do you know how to catch wild pigs?"
>>
>> The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line.
>> The young
>> man said this was no joke. "You catch wild pigs by finding a
>> suitable place
>> in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and
>> begin to
>> come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming
>> every day,
>> you put a Fence down one side of the place where they are used to
>> coming.
>> When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again
>> and you
>> put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start
>> to eat
>> again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fe nce up
>> with a
>> gate in the last side. The pigs, who are used to the free corn,
>> start to
>> come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch
>> the whole
>> herd.
>>
>> Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around
>> and around
>> inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating
>> the free
>> corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to
>> forage in the
>> woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity."
>>
>> The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees
>> happening
>> to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/
>> socialism and
>> keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as
>> supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco
>> subsidies,
>> dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare,
>> medicine,
>> drugs, etc. While we continually lose our freedoms - just a little
>> at a
>> time.
>>
>> One should always remember, "There is no such thing as a free
>> lunch!" Also,
>> "You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper
>> than you
>> can do it yourself.
>>
>> If you think the free ride is essential to
>> your way of
but God help you
>> when the
>> gate slams shut!”

“Going without peanut butter at school is not losing personal freedom. You can still eat the stuff at home. And it's not just peanut butter. There was a kid in the A.M kindergarten class last year allergic to peanuts. That meant no peanut butter, no crackers and granola bars, no store bought cupcakes, or anything that was prepared in a facility that uses nuts. Did it really make things that much more difficult? NO. I had to read package information. Big deal. Did it save that child from allergic reaction? Yes. It's kind of like having no poison ivy on the playground, no dangerous chemicals to clean with, no matches to fiddle around with at school. All common sense measures to protect children. Not a big deal unless your totally uncompassionate and selfish. The kid didn't choose to be allergic and shouldn't be treated like a pariah.
At Abby's school so many parents would not/ did not cooperate with the peanut ban that the kids ( and there are quite a few) with allergies have to eat in a separate room. They are allowed to invite a friend everyday.”

“The selfishness comes in requiring others to go out of their way to meet your unusual issues. My problem is with the school requiring everybody change for 1 or 2 people. That doesn't mean that I as an individual wouldn't respect their problem and work around it, but it should not be mandated by the government. (as a reminder, public schools are the government)

It's like those people who can't have the sun on them. Does the whole class have to sit with the windows blocked for them? That's crazy. The responsibility lies on the individual with the unusual problem. That doesn't mean you can't have compassion for them.

The kids didn't choose to be allergic, but the other kids didn't either.”

“Sass, the point is that instead of people doing the right thing, the kids with allergies shouldn't go to school anymore. One of the parents should quit their job and go on welfare so they can homeschool their kid.

Protect peanut butter's right to go to school!”

“Wellllll...what if you have a kid with say..diabetes, and he cannot control his desire to eat sugar? Does this mean NOPE to satisfy dweeby boy we ban all sugar?

I got to ask...is there such a thing as second hand nut allergy? I mean from what I UNDERSTAND by my limited training you have to actually come in contact WITH the peanuts to be in danger...its not like the "scent of a legume" will kill you.

So here is the idea. Junior, big word here, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, you stay away from the nuts. Associates of his please remember how dangerous this is. If you give him some...its a VIOLATION OF THE LAW.


You know I seem to remember peanuts being around in 1960's and 1970's when I was a kid. And I am pretty sure some of my friends had the allergies (I did have a friend with a seafood allergy) but I don't remember the rest of the FREAKING school haveing to change their lives to satisfy those individual kids.

I guess that is my problem. I have seen so many things changed to satisfy one individual's personal feelings...there has to be a place to draw the line.

When did it get to the part of our Constitution where the emotional/feelings of the individual trumped the free rights of the Group?”

“its not like the "scent of a legume" will kill you.

I have read that some cases are indeed that severe, however I have no first hand knowledge of such a case.

Anaphylaxis is a emotion/feeling?”

“I apologize, no need for namecalling.
last edited: 9/27/07 7:43:03 AM”

“The fact is that you can't compare today to the 60's and 70's. Peanut allergies are MUCH more prevalent in kids today.

You also cannot compare this to diabetes. Coming into contact with sugar that someone accidentally got on the lunch table before junior sat down will not kill a kid with diabetes. It very well could if it's peanut butter for a kid with a peanut allergy.

It has nothing to do with emotions and personal control of not eating the peanuts. That did make me laugh though.”

“UM no...and anaphylaxis is a very dangerous condition...I am sure both of you have intubated a patient or started IV's on board while transporting a patient?

HPM I was asking the question, since in 20 years of emergency services I HAVE NEVER heard of a real recorded case. Granted I did have a case where a woman demanded a neighbor extinguish his barbcue grill since the "meat smoke" was making her have an allergic reaction...the problem was he was grilling fish and she was a moonbat vegan.

So I guess I am pretty skeptical. Sorry, but I like to see verfied evidence of something. Call me silly but I have seen enough internet crap, heard enough "my cousin's cousin had a friend who HEARD this for real" that I get a little skeptical.

Finally there is a condition where kids are extremely limited in their "immunity" my question is. If we have a kid (call him TED) who has the condition but he DEMANDS to be equal what is EQUAL?

Does this mean we (in the good liberal sense ) bring everyone down TO his level? DO we demand the entire school wear the N95 Particulate Mask and if so WHO pays for them?

Does that mean that all the other kids must wear a TYVEK suit to avoid contamination of the ONE student. And if you are doing so....inherently discriminatory in that you are requiring special practices be adopted by all OTHER students to meet the particular need of one student?”

“anaphylaxis is a very dangerous condition
agreed. It just seemed that you were equating the two.

I am sure both of you have intubated a patient or started IV's on board while transporting a patient?
Irrelevant to the discussion.

I read something recently about the scent thing but it seemed more anecdotal to me. I am uncertain how much weight to give it.

I do agree with you in thoery regarding tyranny of the majority/minority and I have no issue with reasonable accommodation. How that shakes out.....I dunno. But one thing to consider is that in this case it is compulsory that kids attend school and it is compulsory that their parent pay for the school. There is no option there. So if they must attend then what responsibilities does the school have in regard to those kids.

Again, I dunno.
last edited: 9/27/07 8:05:21 AM”

“I am sure both of you have intubated a patient or started IV's on board while transporting a patient?

WTF does that have to do with anything? Is this simply to demonstrate your expertise with a condition you apparently know nothing about?


"my cousin's cousin had a friend who HEARD this for real" that I get a little skeptical

What are you talking about?

Here are some excerpts from an article that it took me 2 seconds to find:

"From 1997 to 2002, the prevalence of peanut allergies in children doubled, according to a study last December in the Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology."

"Peanut allergy is one of the most common food allergies, affecting 1.5 million Americans"

http://12.31.13.50/healthtopics/allergies/Sep04acMain.htm”

“It's only compulsory that they attend a school. (that in itself is a problem) ...

Let's not use the taking away of rights to justify the taking away of rights.”

“Most school districts can't keep up with growth as is. Are we now suggesting we build "Peanuts Suck" schools?

I justified nothing.
It was merely a consideration followed with a question.”

“Sarge , when you gona talk about people having their 'Wrongs' taken away. I've a few I'll gladly give up.”

“What does 1.5 million Americans break down?

Recent research showed that in a Western community about 1 in 200 children (0.5%) had a reaction to peanut by 5 years of age. Overall about 1-2% of the population have a clinical reaction to peanuts. About 3% of children have a positive peanut allergy test (such as a skin prick test) but only 1/3 of these will develop reactions on eating peanuts.

The majority of allergic reactions to peanut are mild and consist of hives around the mouth where peanut has touched the skin, or more generalised hives on other parts of the body. Another common symptom is abdominal pain and vomiting which occurs soon after eating a peanut product. More sensitive children can develop coughing, wheezing, difficulty breathing or hoarseness of the voice due to an allergic reaction occurring in the airway. In the most severe cases collapse and loss of consciousness can occur. Very rarely, very sensitive individuals have died from the severe allergic reaction known as anaphylaxis.

All allergists agree that children who have had a serious reaction to peanut with involvement of the breathing passages should have an EpiPen.

(from Australia, referring to western children)

http://www.chw.edu.au/parents/factsheets/peanut_allergy.htm”

“That's a pretty recent study, more recent than the one I looked at.

I still don't think it's unreasonable for schools to implement the rules.”

“"It was a joke tech..." - Creek Dancer

I wasn't responding to you, so don't take offense. :-)


XL - I actually did see a story on TV a few years ago where a school had to blackout the windows on one classroom so a light-sensitive student could attend. Mom brought the kid in every day completely covered, then took the suit off in the classroom.

You can't demand the light-sensitive or peanut-allergy student stay home because the law states they have a right to reasonable accomodation. This is most often applied to autistic students, who have a right to go to the same school as everyone else. In many cases they are included in regular classes and not even segregated out to "special" classes - at least not until higher grades.”

“No offense taken. :)”

“Sorry but I just don't see it. I guess I am tired of working cases where JUNIOR has some severe problems (like behavior) but the Inclusivity crap makes us PUT THEM IN WITH THE OTHER KIDS. The result is the quitessential Libbie result...falling rates of success.

IF the child has severe problems, I am wondering how much it would take to make separate facilites for them...

Oh I just checked and just can't find ANY reference to Inhaled Peanut dangers...sorry”

“I've seen it XL, personally. 1x only in 10 years of working in a public school system. After the reaction I got to start cleaning every horizontal surface in the classroom on a nightly basis. Yay!”

“Wasn't that irresponsible of the parents to send that child to school? Or, did the parents not know of the condition, in which case, none of this would matter.”

“Well, XL, the severely retarded get moved to the special school, or to private school depending on their needs. I'm talking about the moderately to mildly disabled.”

“Oh I just checked and just can't find ANY reference to Inhaled Peanut dangers...sorry

You suck at the internet. (Take that humorously as that is how I meant it).

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/inside.asp?AID=274&UID=

A susceptible person does not always need to eat the culpable food item to develop a reaction. In one survey of people who had allergic reactions to peanuts served on commercial airliners, only 48% of patients had actually ingested the peanuts; 33% merely inhaled peanut allergen, and 19% had only skin contact.3”

“Now all of the other times I've seen it mentioned it has not been in a scholarly article (like the above) nor was it attributed to anyone who's credentials could be verified.

So to round out the evidence I give you this:

Yeah it's a blog but it has an Interview with Patrick Archer, President of the American Peanut Council.
http://nopeanutsplease-com.blogspot.com/2007/02/it-takes-village-peanut-industry.html

Patrick:
You often hear of people being allergic to inhaled peanut particles or even the odor of peanuts. There is no research that demonstrates that the odor itself causes the allergy though it is possible for people to have a psychosomatic response that resembles an actual allergic reaction. These reactions would not result in anaphylaxis. As for inhaled peanut particles, research does indicate that this can cause an allergic reaction in some cases. Patrick noted that professional opinion on the subject is that airborne particles could not cause anaphylaxis.”

“What type of reaction HPM? YOU are using an aircraft (which very well may NOT have had all their PACKS running in the air filtration system) this is MUCH more concentrated environment than a school. I understand as Sass said she has seen ONE reaction in x number of years...I am wondering though. If the rest of the classmates see Junior getting this treatment (we have to change to make him happy) will they be a accepting of him?

Finally what sort of a rule do we make?”

“So in conclusion there is a concern but how large that danger actually is depends on conditions.

For the record, I like peanuts and don't have a dog in this fight.

I'm just discussing a topic.
last edited: 9/27/07 11:54:07 AM”

“Do we really have to make a rule?”

“hpm...there needs to be something. Imagine if the next "illness" is like the kid before who has some severe problems but demands we give him 'special treatment"”

“May I ask whom I am addressing?
My assumption is that this is a Halloween handle for XL?

Personally I think nut-free zones as a matter of policy are a bit over the top but if we are going to require a child attend a public school then we can not reasonably expect said child to expose themselves to a potentially dangerous situation.

If it were my kindergardener daughter who had the severe allergy I would be scared #&%!$less. I have a hard enough time getting her to put her shoes on in the morning much less for her to be "nut aware" (sounds like a anti-predator program doesn't it?) and on guard for nut products 24-7. However my assumption is that I would have to be the one to educate her and anyone who has to come in contact with her about the dangers nuts pose to her. I would not expect the whole school to ban nut products. If they did I would have been shocked....and probably grateful.”

“nut-free zone
He can't be talking about TT. ;-)”

“Silly StoveStomper

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL”

“Yes HPM I have switched ...I guess I see that, but I also think there needs to be some responsibility on the Teachers' part. I am an assistant Scoutmaster of a troop with say 20 regularly attending Scouts. A couple do have food allergies. We are always careful with food assignments etc.”

“"American Peanut Council"?

Going by what the industry spokesperson said wouldn't be my first choice.


last edited: 9/27/07 12:42:44 PM”

“Well, at Laurel's school they don't have a nut-free policy except in the case of if a parent wants to bring goodies for the whole class they have to approve the recipe in advance to be sure it is nut free.

I dunno Tilt. What he said was not in contradiction to the Mayo clinic survey.

A stopped clock is right two times (once if it's digital) a day.
last edited: 9/27/07 1:11:06 PM”

“As far as loss of personal freedoms go peanut butter is waaaaaaay down the list.”

“Would that be above or below the right to shed your pants on the list?”

“It's not just peanut butter, or the fact that food is restricted. There is a lot of inconvenience involved, especially for the teachers.”

“No HMP, that is a G-d given right the likes of which our founding fathers wrote about in the Declaration of Independence.”

“Ah, ok.

I still don't think it would be wise to carry an open jar of peanut butter into a nut free zone and drop trou.

People would talk.
last edited: 9/27/07 1:41:00 PM”

“It's just a general distrust based on all the other industry spokespersons I've heard over the years.  Time after time they reveal themselve to be highly paid liars.

Did the tobacco industry ever admit that nicotine was addictive?”

“I still don't think it would be wise to carry an open jar of peanut butter into a nut free zone and drop trou.

People would talk.

Only if I asked, "Has anyone seen a dog run through here?".”

“I bet those peanut industry bastards are keeping the fact that peanuts cause cancer hush hush too!”

“If you think about it, banning pb is banning jelly.

We can't talk about that in America. Not PC.”

“Jelly is such a ho.
Alway hanging all over PB.

It's unseemly.”

“Marshmallow fluff is sexy.”

“Very funny.”

“Our elementary school school sends out a questionnaire at the beginning of the year that includes food allergies. At back to school night our first grader's teacher said that one of the kids had nut allergies so we couldn't send in birthday treats with nuts. The mother corrected her by saying it was only walnuts.

I felt hugely inconvenienced.”

“'cept that school wasn't doing what we'r... ah screw it.”