Call For Civility

“First off, this is purposefully not "fuego" because the problem has spilled out into the chatter threads.

CALL FOR CIVILITY

There will always be disagreements between friends and acquaintances, that is human nature. One of the things that makes the human race special is that there are so many unique personalities, which have been fueled by many unique experiences. Our parents, friends, co-workers, beliefs, life events, even our diet can affect how we perceive the world and our opinions.

But the hateful attitudes on this website are out of hand.

The patronizing one another for their "different" beliefs ... the name-calling ... the bigotry ... the bullying ... the obsessive baiting ... it's out of hand.

About a year and a half ago I noticed this (to a lesser degree) and asked the people individually to stop. I LOVE to have conversations with people who differ in opinion from me. I LOVE to debate, and I LOVE at times just to listen to them. I do this almost daily with a person at my workplace who is also one of my best friends. A lot can be learned from him, and I know he's learned a lot from me. It's what makes our friendly relationship tick, and it's a fulfilling feeling. But on this website there were a few people who just didn't understand that. I though at the time I could do something about it by doing it right back to them. I even warned them, if you do it to me, I'll do it right back to you, often even more forcefully, that way you can see what it's like.

I was wrong to do that. It got out of hand. WAY out of hand. Some people didn't understand why I was doing it. Some people did. Some people forgot. Some people decided to use that as fuel for the flames. Regardless, it was my fault. I was wrong to do that.

Last year around the beginning of November I decided to stop it - cold turkey, and I did. Naturally the flaming continued from many people. I expected that to just die off at some time as people got tired of it. Unfortunately, and to my surprise, not only did it not die off, but it got worse.

As I look at old threads, this didn't start with "troll-Sarge". It goes way back. But the troll-Sarge thing made things worse. Much worse. I'm sorry for that. My plan backfired. It was a TERRIBLE plan.

I'm not asking for forgiveness. I'm asking for it to stop. It's not going to stop completely. Again, ... human nature says there will be conflict. It's natural. But the bigotry and the hate and the obsessive attacks are out of hand.

I sort of expected Matt to do something about it since much of that is in the Terms of Agreement. For whatever reason known only to him (and possibly an excellent reason), he's chosen to let it continue. I respect his decision as it's his website, and a great one at that.

But since he hasn't it has to come from us. ("Us", yes that means me too.)

This is a Call For Civility. It's a challenge to end it here and now. There is no reason we can't do this. The friendly jabs at one another is one thing, but you guys know what I'm talking about here, and it ain't that.

It is going to take a group effort.

Let's roll.”

“I'm on board you goose-stepping, sauerkraut-eating nazi, right-wing fascist bastard.”

“Sarge, like most of your posts I ACTUALLY agree with you. The problem I have is that you give just as well as you take. I've seen this "name calling" and "intolerance" from you as well as the others. Granted, yours isn't as vile as some of theirs but it does exist. It's further fueled by your constant "poor me" routine. I don't mean this as an attack or to be rude, just my observation.”

“I'm with you, providing you take the terms you lay out seriously. Remember, this is a two-way street. I personally think that you lapsed back into the old Sarge (the guy from before your untimely death) and brought a lot of this on yourself. You walk through fire, your feet get burned. Simple enough. But, I don't want to dwell on that. If you mean what you say and are sincere, I can only assure you that you won't get any flack from me. As for the others, I will let them answer for themselves. Fair enough?”

“Let's roll.

You left out the "t".”

“I think emotional maturity is a better call than civility.”

“This is a multiple choice quiz.

What do you call a person who cries often and loudly about being persecuted, but keeps coming back for more?

A. masochist
B. Sarge
C. both”

“I,m out of papers Sarge,have to use a pipe.”

“I love good sauerkraut with Polish sausage!!

Back blast area................CLEAR!!!!”

“I'm all for civility. I believe there is actually a point to decent manners.

I do think its a mistake to go into personalities and causes of problems while asking for civility. It runs the risk of inviting attacks or creating defensiveness - no two people are going to draw the same line.

I'd also suggest that people not worry about subtle things that are very open to interpretation and vastly differing perceptions.”

“What exactly are you trying to say, pedxing?”

“Why ask for more abuse....just forget it. =)
last edited: 4/06/06 8:59:51 AM”

“There was a post on another thread that talked about people "talking", or typing, differently online then they actually would in person. I don't really get this. Why do that? Especially on a site like this that, ultimately, is for backpackers to actually meet other backpackers. That post also said something about acting different on the trail than the do on here. Again, why do that? Why would you want to be vial to someone on line and then be civil in person? Doesn't really make since to me. I know some of you don't care to meet others but still, why be an @ss just for the sake of being an @ss. Just my $0.02.”

“Being an @$$ is not a conscious choice for some people, Thrifty. They just are.”

“i'm not talking about the ones that just are, i'm talking about the ones that just are online”

“yawn”

“Why isn't this fuego again? Or why didn't the master troll put this in the Hey Matt thread?

Thrifty - I don't think, generally, that people try to come of differently online. You just do b/c it's a crappy form of communication. Especially since you're talking to a bunch of people you might have yet to meet. And another thing few seem to take into account is that there are cultural differences that aren't "seen" on the internet. Somethings that would never piss off one member pisses off another.”

“"Hey everyone,
I'm finally posting on the infamous trailtalk, or "the backpacker site" as Sarge used to call it. Unfortunately, it's not under circumstances which I'd like.

I'm writing to you because you meant a lot to Sarge. "The backpacker site I go to" is a phrase I heard many times in conversations with him. He'd often talk about things written on this site, and sometimes say "check this out" and he'd show me a one of your conversations. We'd laugh at some of the posts, and we'd sometimes try to come up with new ways to "make things interesting" and "stir the pot."

But, as you may have guessed, Sarge, whose real name was Jim, died unexpectedly. Three days ago on Friday, at about 5:15pm, Jim was the victim of a fatal heart attack.

I realize none of y'all knew Jim in real life, so I want to tell you a little about him, as I'm sure he would've liked me to do.

I can assure you that Jim was a good man. He loved his family, his friends, and his country. I knew him to be a man of conviction, yet he listened intently to others and enjoyed the challenging (and fun) conversations online. He was a good friend and proud ex-soldier. He loved to backpack and even had an optional major knee surgery so that he could stay active.

[On a small side note, Jim was not just about backpacking and internet chat. He loved the martial arts and for years seemed obsessed by it, working long hours at honing his skills. We had fun watching marital arts movies like "Iron Monkey" and then one night we watched "City on Fire"...a horrible movie! (The Blockbuster kid told us it was a good martial arts movie...Jim wanted to go Kung Pow on him afterward!)]

He's told me in the past how he'd often desired a friendly relationship and dialog with many of you, but felt the confines of the internet squelched that too much. When we'd go on hikes, he'd ask people we'd pass something about this site to see if he recognized them, hoping to meet some of you, so he really had a fondness in his heart for you, whether you agreed or disagreed about any number of topics. Backpacking and hiking were ways to just be with people to Jim.

Recently, Jim lost a loved one, his dog. If dogs go to Heaven I am sure they are together again.

Thanks everyone!" - muskrat (Sarge troll)”

“LOL, sarge that "ghost" is gonna haunt you forever”

“It will only haunt those that are possessed by it. ;)”

“Maybe you should do what the rest of us do: Backpack with TTers occasionally. Go meet some other TTers in person. Only then can you compare the discourse between yourself and your in-person at-work friend and your discourse between yourself and the TT world.



And everyone could stand to remember Matthew 7:1-5.”

“Just out of curiosity, since nobody on here has taken any responsibility except me, and the following people actually blame me (after I admitted to many mistakes): thriftyhiker, treebeard, geobeet, pedxing, sassafras (removed) and ruby ... I was just wondering if all this was in vain or is anybody going to actually change instead of point fingers?”

“Didnt you know, pointing fingers is the american way :D”

“I didn't blame you. I made a helpful suggestion to you. What I posted doesn't even rise to the level of constructive criticism.”

“Just out of curiosity, since nobody on here has taken any responsibility except me

more "poor me" routine...any name calling i've ever done was just me being a smart @ss or me making an observation that came out wrong as an attack”

“Hey! I called you a bunch of names! Why don't I rate being on your #&%!$ list?!?”

“Ruby - I'd like to offer you some constructive criticism (seriously - this is not a troll) - When you quote scripture be sure to know what it means. The words "judging" and "rebuking" are two different things, and the Bible speaks to both of those things separately and differently. Take care.”

“[insert springstein muzak]

you had me at call. you had me at call.”

“Just out of curiosity, if there is responsibility to be taken by anyone, why does it have to be the same morning you choose to do so? I'm not attacking you with this question, Sarge. I'm just asking. And I'm not trying to be a smart@ss either. Maybe today isn't the day that someone else feels moved to make a change. They shouldn't be accused of pointing fingers just because of that.”

“Eat yer heart out Jimmy san. You've either got it or you don't.”

“LOL @ ruby...i know you didn't mean that to be funny but it struck me as so

"I don't have to be responsible today, so raspberries to you!!"”

“;P Right back at ya, Thrifty!”

“Ruby - I'm not going to argue with you about it.”

“I'm not going to argue either, Sarge. I am just offering something for you to consider.”

“An effort to alter the behavior of others might be seen as manipulation.

Peace, Brother!!”

“I will NOT be manipulated! >:( Down with sarge!”

“Seeing Sarge is on "Ignore" it's fun to watch the rest of you.”

“will simply withhold judgement/opinion.

Actions speak louder than words.

To that end, I did not see any improvement from the old pre-death Sarge to the new post-death Sarge. In spite of Sarge's many arguements that it was so. Perhaps the change in posture was so nuanced that I missed it.

In that context, I will simply withhold my opinion.


With regard to my own responsibiity. I am what I am. My posture on this board is little changed. At one end of the spectrum some people irritate me and I am harsh with them. Certainly harsher than I would be if I was sitting across a table from them versus on the internet.

At the other end of the spectrum their are folks here with whom I am careful to have a more "across the table" sort of dialogue. This may be because I "like" them (internet style), because i "respect" them, because they seem like people I wouldn't mind getting to know in real life, and/or because their geographical proximity presents an opportunity to hike with them someday and I therefore avoid being a deliberate a$$h-le to them.

Most folks fall into the wide space between. Political view and/or religious views are NOT the arbiter of this stuff for me . . .it tends to fall much more along the lines of internet personality.

i have been reprimanded by, for instance Sarge, for being unduly harsh, abusive and belittling of Christians and felt nothing.

I was once reprimanded by Birch for the same . .and although I said nothing at the time . ..I have never forgotten it. When he (very rarely) joins a religous discussion on fuego . ..I tend to immediately temper my opinions and/or back off the thread altogether.

That anecdote explains about as candidly as i can, my posture/approach here.”

“"I was once reprimanded by Birch for the same . .and although I said nothing at the time . ..I have never forgotten it. When he (very rarely) joins a religous discussion on fuego . ..I tend to immediately temper my opinions and/or back off the thread altogether."
lee

I'm hip to that, lee.”

“This may be because I "like" them (internet style), because i "respect" them, because they seem like people I wouldn't mind getting to know in real life, and/or because their geographical proximity presents an opportunity to hike with them someday and I therefore avoid being a deliberate a$$h-le to them.

see, this is exactly what i don't understand...why would you selectively be rude to certain people just because you don't think you'll ever meet them?...that's like saying it's ok to break the law if you don't think you'll get caught...why not just be respectful to everyone?...i don't think(or at least i hope) that i have ever offended anyone on here, if i have i apologize
last edited: 4/06/06 10:58:18 AM”

“Okay, okay...I know you are all talking about me, you don't have to beat around the bush anymore.

I'm sorry, I've filled every single thread with hate and venom and run off all the old timers and intimidated all the newcomers. And all those TT service burps? Yeah that was me doing a DNS attack. My bad. and I'm sorry about the weather too.

Oh yeah, and the bird poop on your car's hood, I did that too.

I'll go sit in the corner now.”

“I love reading this stuff.”

“Hey HPM, that was not bird poop on my hood, it was larger.”

“no, hpm, the bird poop and bad weather is all Bush's fault ;)”

“I was wondering where taht poop on my hood came from.

I hate you, HPM.”

“you know WK, you can stop playing your hand so close to your chest...i don't think i've ever seen you post anything controversial...come on, we're dying to know...you're a closet libbie aren't you ;)”

“LMAO.....”

“Wounded Knee hates karoke haters.”

“I'll try to explain. Not to justify, or apologize, just to explain.

In real life there are folks who rub you the wrong way: in laws, at the gym, at work, in town.

For my part, I ignore them. Am civil, rarely confrontational (although I don't hesitate to protect my real life space if I need to).

This is where I would put Sarge. His internet personality rubs me the wrong way. It is a challenge to be civil to him when he says something I agree with (see his proposal on gay marriage (or not marriage as it were let alone everything he says that I disagree with. If it were real life I would have no interaction with him. Zero. Here, on the internet, I simply don't feel constrained from letting him know exactly how I feel about his opinions.

I guess from that perspective I view interaction on the internet and in real life very differently.

I suppose that would change if, for instance Sarge, showed up on my doorstep one day in tears because I was picking on him and he really was a nice guy.

I don't expect that to happen however.”

“I wanna see him karoke- when is the next TT area meeting? LOL”