Black bear kills child in TN.

“Here's the article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-5754869,00.html”

“Oh my Lord, my wife and I were just in that area recently. I had told her there was nothing to fear in regard to bears. Very sad indeed.”

“WHy is this story in a UK news source?”

“Story is all over the wire, CNN, in Knoxville News, etc. This harkens memories of the fatal black bear predation in the Smokies a few years ago.”

“This harkens memories of the fatal black bear predation in the Smokies a few years ago.”
edoc
6:56:51 AM
4/14/06

As well as the bear that killed an infint in the Catskills a year or two ago. Very sad.”

“How awful. I cannot imagine what that mother and daughter are going through. I'm interested to hear what the full story is.”

“...and THIS happens...I say change the constitution and revoke the right to Arm these denizens!
last edited: 4/14/06 6:37:25 AM”

“WOW, a co-worker that i just took to the smokeys last week told me about this as soon as i got in...i know a situation like this would be hectic but how do you let your 6 year old just run off like that”

“together at a pool below a falls. The bear grabbed the 2 year old son in its mouth. Mom and other campers were beating it with sticks and rocks. The 6 year old daughter ran down the trail in an attempt to save her own life. The bear dropped the boy and ran after the daughter. Caught up to her 100 yards down the trail and killed her. Mom and son are critical.”

“I have backpacked in Canada, South America, and all over the United States. When I was young and single I accepted the risk with no extra thought. Things have changed now…I have a wife and two kids. All across the United States efforts have been made to re-introduce and increase wildlife populations in National Parks and other areas. I’ll never forget the time I ran into a wildlife biologist in the Smokey Mountains packing a 45 on his hip. Was he concerned about an animal attack? Deciding to return wild animals to our wild lands increases the chances of a deadly encounter. Why did the early settlers carry weapons as they moved across these lands? I’m a college educated individual with a master’s degree. I’m not a gun crazy redneck! When I take my family into the backcountry I always carry a weapon! I will not allow myself to be in a helpless situation like the poor family found itself in recently when they were attacked. You ask an off duty ranger if he carries a weapon in the backcountry when he takes his family out! What gives him the right to act in a proactive manner? I have two lines of defense…when I hike on National Park land I carry bear mace and observe gun laws. When I hike on federal or state wilderness lands I carry a 12 gauge shotgun with a pistol grip. The gun is loaded with buckshot and deer slugs. The weapon slides into my pack and fits nicely. The reason I use a shotgun, and not a pistol, deals with gun laws. Pistols require permits to carry for each individual state but shotguns and rifles do not. I still carry the mace and conceder it to be my first line of defense. You must remember that the odds are small for an attack…I understand that. But what if you’re the one standing there while a wild animal kills your child in front of you and you stand helplessly watching!
last edited: 4/14/06 8:40:00 AM”

“i'm not against carrying a gun in the back country, in fact i've thought of it myself, but i question the effectiveness of carrying it in your pack...by the time you get in there and get it out it's probably too late”

“very tragic, also odd that a bear would attack with other people around. the article says there were visitors at the falls.”

“i was thinking that too jmitch...i have always heard, and this could just be an old wifes tale so correct me if i'm wrong, that black bears have never attacked a group of 3 or more people”

“I can get the gun out in a matter of seconds. The grip is at the top of my pack and I can slide the gun out as I pull off the pack. I have practiced this maneuver several times. I consider the bear mace a better defense. Several individuals have used mace more effectively than the weapons they carried. You can get the mace off your hip faster and respond to an attack. The gun is my second line of defense. If an animal went after another member of my family I could respond with either. Sleeping in a tent at night the gun is by my side and always available just in case. I would use it as a noise maker before I’d ever fire it directly at an animal. Every situation is different and unpredictable. My response to the situation is more important than all the defenses I carry.”

“Bears have attacked groups of individuals before. In California a scout troop was attacked while several leaders attempted to beat the bear off a young boy. He was dragged from his tent during the night.”

“I'm guessing this was a habitual bear that had lost its fear of humans. If it is caught it's almost definitely will be destroyed.”

“I guess down around the Smokies, bears are becoming more habituated to humans. In PA, they're heavily hunted and not as habituated to humans. I've never had a problem with bears, they always run away on the trail.

With small children, you must always be very careful. Can't blame this family, at a popular spot with other people, it's easier to let your guard down.”

“Could the season play into it as well? I imagine the bears are rather hungry this time of year and their food supply might be a little scarce.”

“I agree with packboy, although I think the shotgun is considered a concealed weapon if it is "hidden" in your pack. I am licensed in Indiana to carry a handgun, but not in other states, but that has not stopped me from doing so from time to time. Always like to have a fighting chance weather its man or beast that decides to put a early end to an otherwise enjoyable day.”

“Reciprocal carry Laws.....

You can carry your pistol in other states:

http://www.packing.org/state/indiana/

Click the red map below the index.”

“I'm currently shopping for a weapon for self protection in bear counry. I've narrowed my search to the S&W 460 and S&W 500 revolvers. I'll be buying one by the end of the month. I'm planning to fly into Alaska early this fall for a backcountry trip with some friends. Anyone ever transport a weapon to Alaska? I know that driving through Canada is a challenge with weapons but what about flying? I suppose shipping it in advance with insurance is an option.”

“Check with the airline, ship the weapon with loaded clips (but not in the gun), in a locked case manufactured for secure storage. You must declare the weapon, and provide a key for the TSA inspection process... There is usually a steep charge that can add as much as 80 dollars each way to a ticket, but puting the gun in your packed luggage is actually insurance it all gets there...the bag with the weapon will receive special handling, and will be placed in secure storage within the hold of the plane.”

“are you talking about 500 Magnum? I shot one of those, its the only gun I didn't want to shot again. I held it tight in my hand but it still felt like it jammed the bone up into my arm, I didn't notice that too much because it sounded like a gernade going off next to my head, I checked my ear for blood. Not fun to shoot but it would probably drop a bear !”

“I carry pepper spray, the type intended as bear repellent, when I hike where there are bears or mountain lions, which is most places I hike in California. I would never carry a gun. In my opinion, carrying a gun fosters a frame of mind that invites violence, and I won't play into it.

I have tested pepper spray for bears, just to see how far the things shoot and how easy or difficult the things are. Just being near the pepper spray, not hit by it, not down wind of it, just near it, is enough to cause such severe pain in your eyes, nose, and throat, that I am convinced it would work on any animal, including human. So I don't see the point of having a gun when hiking.

Advantages of pepper spray:

~Much cheaper than a gun.

~Much lighter than a gun.

~Can be strapped to the outside of back or worn on belt for quick access.

~It is far easier to hit the target with spray than with a gun and requires no practice to do so.

~Even if you don't hit the target, it will likely work.

~You don't have to worry about killing someone who happens to be standing on the other side of your target, and there is no ricochet.

~If a kid gets a hold of pepper spray, and shoots another kid, the consequences are better than if a kid does the same thing with a gun.

~You can get the stuff various places on the Web or at REI without a license.

I suspect that if that mother in Tennessee had pepper spray, her daughter would still be alive.”

“OC spray doesn't always work on humans. I'm pretty sure the same could be said for angry bears.”

“Disdvantages of pepper spray:
~useless in wind
~worse if wind is toward you
~not very effective against human attacker
~some are difficult to aim
~like any pressure can- you do not know when propellent has leaked and will no longer spray
~ kind of expensive to practice with
~ is illegal in some jurisdictions, difficult to find out which; eg. public buses in NJ, most commercial aircraft.



Oh, and as sad as it is for this child and her parents, how many children have been killed in auto accidents in the same period because they did not have their seatbelts on ?(like Brittney Spears kid).
last edited: 4/14/06 3:10:18 PM”

“You are welcome to your opinion and I respect that. Pepper spray is a great tool and more than likely will do the job if things work as planned. Unfortunately most people have bought into the perception that kids are killed everyday playing with guns, and everyone carrying a gun is a criminal. Generally speaking the American public has bought into the idea that everyone else will save them in a time of need. The fire department, the police department, and the welfare department will help me in my time of crisis. Anyone on this forum that backpacks understands the concept of self-reliance. Using the skills we have developed in the backcountry gives us a sense of accomplishment. But what happened in New Orleans speaks directly to this issue. Complete reliance on others can cost you your life. Government officials and others in public service justify their authority and position by filling the role of protector. I fully agree that someone must do that. But when you assume that you have no personal accountability to help yourself when they cannot, leaves you open to catastrophe. Can a park range be in all places at all times? When social order broke down in New Orleans it was everyone for themselves…human nature became very evident. A thin veil separates us for the true animals that we are. I fear a human far more than a bear. My responsibility as a father is to protect my children and insure their safety. Pepper spray alone does not afford me with enough confidence to do that. Believe it or not I’m not a member of the NRA, I’m more a liberal than a republican, I don’t believe the world is going to end soon and collapse into anarchy, and I don’t have a confederate flag hanging in my house.”

““Disadvantages of pepper spray:
~useless in wind—Would take a strong wind to make it "useless"
~worse if wind is toward you—You should not spit up wind too, in case you did not know.
~not very effective against human attacker—I don't see how you could say this. The stuff is stronger than that which is made for use on humans.
~some are difficult to aim—Like the recoil of a 45 is not a problem?
~like any pressure can- you do not know when propellant has leaked and will no longer spray—Good point, I have to concede.
~ kind of expensive to practice with—No practice is necessary, but if you have ever practiced with guns, you know that the amount of ammunition needed to become proficient would cost far more.
~ is illegal in some jurisdictions, difficult to find out which; eg. public buses in NJ, most commercial aircraft.--And you can carry guns on buses in NJ and most commercial aircraft. I have never seen a bear on a bus or in a plane.



Oh, and as sad as it is for this child and her parents, how many children have been killed in auto accidents in the same period because they did not have their seatbelts on ?(like Brittney Spears kid).-And so your point is...?”

“I suspect that if that mother in Tennessee had pepper spray, her daughter would still be alive.”
Old Growth
2:42:47 PM

.-And so your point is...?”
Old Growth
3:34:10 PM

My point is that Bear attacks are so rare that a mother could do far more for her childs safety by ensuring the seat belt was always used than carrying bear spray.
The mother would also do far more for her childs safety by teaching her children to not smoke and avoid fatty foods. Both would save far more children than all American mothers rushing out to buy and carry bear spray.

And if the mother was to carry bear spray, perhaps a firearm would be more effective if it happened to be a windy day, or the wind happened to be blowing toward her.

Perhaps if she had discussed bear behaviour with her children and told them to never run from a bear, dog, or mountain lion as that triggers a predator~prey response her child may be alive also.

I spend a lot of time in the woods have met numerous bears (Black bears only) and never carry bear spray. Most of the time no firearm also, just lucky I guess.

But maybe it is better to be lucky than good.”

“It's a single rare incident. I certainly wouldn't like to try and shoot a bear in close proximity to a child. might be better using anything else to hand and normally would be.”

“"It's a single rare incident". Absolutely agree

I certainly wouldn't like to try and shoot a bear in close proximity to a child.
~ if the bear was not in close proximity there would be no reason to shoot a bear, and given that you are not a person who uses firearms it is certainly correct for you. Not necessarily the case for those proficient with firearms. A standard pistol target at 25 yards has a 2 inch 10 ring and about an 8 inch 8 ring, anyone shooting over 800 in a 900 course should not have any problem hitting a bear, and not hitting a bystander.

"might be better using anything else to hand and normally would be".
any encounter between a human armed with just what was to hand and a bear with vastly superior strength, speed, and natural weapons (claws and teeth) the bear will win easily. Only with fire and weapons did humans rise above bears in the food chain.”

“i love TT ;) ...even a tragic story like a bear attacking a kid can turn into an argument
last edited: 4/14/06 4:06:30 PM”

“We have started to define our society by the lowest common denominator. Recently they spent two million dollars in my community taking the curve out of a curve. Several accidents had occurred on this “dangerous” curve. Blinking lights and signs warned approaching traffic to slow down. I slowed down and 99.9% of everyone else slowed down. But what about the .1% that did not and died. They ignored the signal and killed themselves. So what do we do we spend two million dollars to straighten the curve so to speak. Children have died because parents did not buckle them up. Do we outlaw cars to stop this? Of course not…we use cars on a daily bases that would be crazy. Let’s pass a law requiring everyone to use belts. Will that stop someone from not belting a child? What’s next…a law that requires alarms in cars that will automatically call the police when a parent neglects to buckle their child? In a way that sounds reasonable but be careful. We’re trying to create a society that caters to the lowest common denominator. Many things have been done over history with the justification that’s for the greater good. We will reach a point where the rights of the majority will be usurped in an attempt to protect the minority. That will give us restrictive laws that limit everyone in the name of protecting everyone. That personally scares me…anyone read George Orwell recently.”

“I guess I kind of respect everybody's opinion. Each to their own & what may work in one area, may not in another. I'm used to violent confrontations & I froze the first time a bear bluff-charged me (very close range) out of the blue. Let my guard down listening to my radio with a headset. Seems that you have more problems with bears in large parks where people think it's CUTE to feed them. The bear becomes a problem & loses it's fear of humans. Most wild (black)bears in remote area's will run from humans. That baby killing bear in the Catskills was actually munching out of an over-flowing dumpster in a bungalow colony in a populated area. These visitors have some religious sanction against washing and smells was thought to have confused the critter. Who knows?”

“Bateauxdriver, before you buy a Smith, check out the Ruger super redhawk alaskan in 460 or 500. They were designed for this specific purpose. But you must be an experienced handgunner to accurately handle such a firearm. The 460 "is the most powerful handgun in the world". No b.s. Think mile long freight train w. a stuck throttle. I'd love to try it though...
I share Packboy's sentiments on this subject, but I would think the 12 ga. would get a little tedious on longer hikes. I know I wouldn't want to drag mine around for miles and miles day after day even if I lost all the wood for minimalistic composites. It still has to get heavy after a while.
I'm not trying to make any enemys here, If you dont want to carry a firearm, that is your choice, but dont mess with my choices either. My 1911 .45 goes everywhere I go, and for my daughters' sake it always will. Education is the key to kids and firearms safely in the same home. Check out the Eddie Eagle program from the NRA. Even if you are not a firearms owner/advocate. It is naive to think your kids will NEVER come into contact with a firearm. They need to respect it and know enough to leave it alone with out an adult present. As for this bear, it is hard to say if a firearm would have been useful in the situation with out having been there. If the child was between the mother and the bear, then it would be useless. It all depends on the exact time and place...
That's my $.02 worth. (well ok, maybe $.04)”

“What is the 'best' bear spray on the market?”

“This stuff?: http://www.defensedevices.com/bearpepspray.html”

“What are the odds on getting into a fatal car accident on the way to a trailhead?”

“I use Counter Assault Bear spray. So far it has repelled all bears from attacking me.
last edited: 4/14/06 8:20:50 PM”

“Terrible! I can not imagine what the mom feels like. I hope the little boy is going to be okay. One of the reasons my kids don't want to backpack with me alone are the bears. [my tough little boogers are really big chickens]

Really tho, that's one of the reasons they don't want to backpack.”

“I'm more worried about my wife hearing about this story than I am about bears.”

“Guns are heavy. Still, I often carry a 357 illegally in my pack in bear country. My life is the most precious thing I have, so I think of it as a type of insurance.

The fact that guns are illegal in many places encourages those who do have to use them to develop a "shoot, shovel, and shut-up" mentality. I know that I definately wouldn't be stupid enough to report shooting an attacking bear in the National Park, and all the people I know feel the same way. So I suspect that there are a lot more bear attacks than we hear about.

I also carry pepper spray clipped to my belt, but would get the 357 out of my pack and ready if time permitted. A shotgun is just too heavy for me, but packboy has a good point - illegally carrying a shotgun probably won't get you into as much trouble if you are unlucky enough to get caught. The 357 won't stop a charging bear like a 12 guage shotgun either, but the "sting" will probably discourage him more than pepper spray.”

“Just how much is the back country patroled by rangers? I'm thinking I could rig my paddle holster into the straps of my hip belt, and carry open, strong side, just like I do every day. This would eliminate the issue of response time: i.e. "hang on angry bear, I just need to dig for this big ass pistol in the bottom of my pack". I would probably look like a psycho to anyone I bumped into on the trail, but so what. a couple well placed 230gr. .45acp hshp should be able to put down a bear at close range. I know they will anihilate a the chest cavity of an already wounded deer from about 4'. I think I will do a little more research on this...”

“I carry a shotgun to walk the fine legal line. Long guns do not require a permit in any state. Shotguns fall under that legal definition. It is heavy but when I backpack with my family we distribute the gear and that helps. I want to reiterate that I consider my mace to be my best defensive weapon. You can get it out quickly and several individuals carrying weapons credit the mace with saving their lives.”

“I got my conceiled weapon license and my 9mm beretta for exatally that reason. Hiking solo and bears. hubby didn't like me going out solo. [and yes I know...a 9mm wouldn't do much good anyway]

I have NEVER taken that damn gun with me, and I never will. ”

“That is very true, and I would not want to kill an animal if it was not necessary. I am headed for the porkies in Aug, and fully intend to take spray w. me then. This issue has really raised my interests though. This will be my first trip in bear country, so I'm not packin. The porkies doesn't seem like a high risk area anyway. I would like to know exactly where I stand for future trips though if I manage to get out west, or north. As for Bateauxdriver's impending purchase, from what I have read & heard, this would not only be legal, but highly recomended. When you are dealing with animals who have no natural predators, and could track you for days, you better have something big enough to dispatch them in short order should an encounter take place.”

“A standard pistol target at 25 yards has a 2 inch 10 ring and about an 8 inch 8 ring, anyone shooting over 800 in a 900 course should not have any problem hitting a bear, and not hitting a bystander.

I wouldn't say that's true at all though. It's one thing to shoot a static target, or even a moving one. It's a completely different thing to shoot a moving target, with both bear and child likely moving around rapidly in close proximity, under immense pressure.

Also - there never seems to be any bad shots out there, particularly amongst guys. Rather like every guy out there thinking they're a great driver.”

“I must say i grew up hiking and camping in bear country. The ONLY time I have seen bears was inthe turron traps and car camper areas because the dorks like to leave trash all around and feed the animals. I got so pissed at a friend one time for admitting that they feed wild animals and didnt think there was anything wrong with that. In the backcountry I have seen bear tracks and scat appenty, BUT NEVER have I actually seen any bears. I dont bring a gun. Never will.”

“So I suspect that there are a lot more bear attacks than we hear about.
Bass
9:24:01 AM
4/15/06

Paranoid and carrying an illegal weapon? What would you do if you shot some one accidentily? Finish the person off and dig a hole?

I wouldn't want to be in the same park as you.”

“Im going to the porkies this month. i am bringing my bear canister and not wearing any deoderant. I will cook away from camp. I am NOT bringing bear spray or a gun. I wont need it because I take precautions and dont attract bears. If a bear does decided Im lunch, I have a pair of nail clippers to fend him off. If that don't work and I survive, think of the money I will make selling my story :D
last edited: 4/15/06 10:28:15 AM”