Construction Costs

“Jon and I are interested in buying a particular house. The house is a major fixer-upper. We discovered that the breaker box still has the old screw-in fuses. Can anyone give me an idea of what it would cost to upgrade the box? Supposedly it has 100 amp service. We'd like to make it 200. (Not sure if I'm even using the correct terminolgy) Jon is gone on Guard training for 2 weeks, so I have to try to come up with some of this on my own.

Is the cost dependent upon square footage or what? Is this a $500 project or is it $3,000?



What it comes down to is that the house is listed for 159,000. It is on a prime 1.5 acre wooded lot with much higher value homes as neighbors. It's a ranch house on a slab that is in such atrocious condition that it would have to be gutted. The woman who lived there had cats and a dog who peed and pooed everywhere. You can see the stains. I just about threw up walking through the place from the stench. Appliances don't work in the kitchen, she's not sure if the water softener works, and the only appliances that look decent -- the washer and dryer -- aren't included. We couldn't even locate the pipe for the well to try to determine if it was a 2" or 4" for all the mess that was covering everything. We offered 135,000 and were shot down by her agent. Not even a counter. He said he felt that he had priced it right.

We might make another offer after some time has passed if it still has not sold but this time include a list of expenses that we will incur as a result of the major rehab. That is why I am asking the question.”

“Unless you're pretty handy around the house (by which I mean you're comfortable doing just about everything) and you've got thousands in reserve to do the fixer-upperin,' Don't do it.

You'd be better off buying an acre and half, building your own damn house.”

“An agent has to refer "any" offer made to the owner (by law) in most states. Unless the agent is the owner?

Most well pipes are 2" poly pipe for new intallations & aprx 2" galvanized pipe for old. Look for the holding tank.

Do you need more elec power in your house right now? Are all the fuses in use? Adding rooms, shop etc? Up-grading is mega-bucks. Quite possibly new lines from the poles. (how close is your house to the road?) Probably new meter etc. All this requires an licensed electrician (at least for inspection) before the elec co will hook you back up to the grid.

You know, they do make push-button screw in circuit breakers for fuse boxes.

While 200 amp is advantages for future power needs, it's something that could wait. I run electric heat, kero furnaces, 220v welder, mig welders, electric dryer,(interior & ext) outlets 110v & 220v), switches & outside lighting everywhere. Tons of shop tools.

I STILL have empty slots on my 200 amp service panel.”

“Yup.”

“It depends Vic. A union electrican will cost a lot more, but some will argue will provide better work.

My grandfather has this done before we purchaced his home. I want to say he paid something like $1,000 to upgrade.

Unfortunatly, we have had some issues with the upgrade. We only have ONE 30 amp circuit dedicated to the kitchen, dinning room and a few lights in the basement. Everytime we run the microwave, all the lights have to be turned off or we blow a fuse.

You really have to be careful with this kind of project.


I would have someone walk through the house with you to check out everything. Frineds of mine bought a house a few years ago thinking they were getting a steal. What they did not know was that the foundation was caving in and the house was sinking. They paid like 140K and ended up putting 50K into jacking up the house and fixing the foundation.

Sounds like she is asking too much. You will end up putting at least 20K into this little project, making it a big one.”

“Ruby, I used to work for a private contractor, and we did this for a couple homes. You are looking at about $2000 in the Indy area to do this job. Labor and materials may be at a premium down in your area right now though, so it may be a good deal more. I currently live in a house I have been working on (on and off) for the last 5 years by myself. Are you able/experienced in doing these type of repairs? 160K sounds like a hell of a lot for a house that needs gutted IMO. The other comments here sound right on also. Be careful, and know everything you are getting into before you sign.”

“I'd schedule another walkthrough with a general contractor and let him price it out.”

“Jon is very adept and handy. And we have numerous friends and Jon's brothers in various construction trades to do the work.

We wouldn't need the 200 service yet, but if we were to gut the place and go through the expense, it seems like the most reasonable time to do it.

It is a huge amount of work. I didn't mention this part. The next door neighborhing house is on the market right now for $750,000. It's a much bigger house (5 bed/8 bath) on 10 acres, but we know that 5 or 10 years down the road we could really earn back our sweat work. It's a highly desirable neighborhood.

We have looked at buying empty land and building ourself. But property around here is pricey. 5-acres lots are going for six figures easily. Then there are tiny lots in subdivisions (we aren't interested in a subdivision) going for $50K - $150K. There are almost no lots to be had in between.





So it seems like the responses so far (thank you) certainly justify our offer. With that offer we would have additional money available to us to do the rehab. And we have additional housing so that we wouldn't have to live there while it was being done.



Regarding the holding tank, we couldn't find it. We looked and looked. We suspect it's covered up somewhere with piles of garbage.”

“Hire a professional contractor to give you an estimate on what the required upgrades to make the house liveable will cost.

My gut says run away from this house.

(HPM beat me to this. Great minds think alike, LOL)
last edited: 6/19/06 7:50:43 AM”

“I forgot to mention that if they had accepted our offer of 135K, we were going to go in with a professional inspector before closing to ensure that our money estimates are on track. With the rehab that we would do, the house in this neighborhood would be worth at least 175, if not 200. Perhaps even more.



For now I think we will just wait. The hotter it is here, the worse that house will show. The stench just gets worse. For some reason the AC is not turned on. (another red flag) If it's still on the market weeks from now, we might make the offer again.”

“(HPM beat me to this. Great minds think alike, LOL)”
StoveStomper
8:46:34 AM
6/19/06

Must be, because I was thinking the same thing too. ;-)”

“Offer 125K in another Month.”

“A few more things.

1. You'd better be ok with living somewhere else for a looooong time. Living in a home while renovating is extremely hard. You will get no rest...ever.

2. Expect this house to be a complete teardown to bare earth. You are buying a lot not a house. That way you won't be totally demoralized when it becomes obvious that that is only path.

3. Be DAMN sure the two of you are united in this effort and can stick it out. The majority of husband/wife major home renovations/builds end in divorce. HGTV won't tell you that, but it's true.”

“It may end up being cheaper to demo and build new than a complete gut rehab. You might not want to pay more than land value, less demolition costs.”

“Bulldozer.”

“I wouldn't say, a majority, but there are a lot...also in buying a house.

(I specialize in Marriage & the Family)”

“Sounds like you have a strong support base Ruby. I can tell you that it will take a lot of desire, and comitment, and yes the two of you must be strong, at the least it will be extremely stressful. Have you ever seen The Money Pit? LOL! Hang in there, you can probably do it. Listen to the contractors that go with you, then see how you feel.”

“I'm pretty sure two people have to be married before they can get divorced. ;-)”

“Ah ok Stovie.
I must have gotten her confused with someone else. Sawy.”

“We have separate housing while the rehab would be going on. We get married next April, so I'd like it to be livable by then so we can move in. Until then I have a condo in town and he has an apartment.


We have considered just tearing it down and starting fresh. Haven't decided on that one for sure. The house seems good structurally. There are no cracks in walls or ceilings, no fresh painting has been done to try to cover up repairs. The house has just been neglected and abused. Did I mention the owner doesn't live there? She apparently has moved in with her boyfriend a while back. (But she left her animals there I think)

Of course, they haven't even accepted our offer, so all this is moot at this point.”

“I've only known one couple that bought a house and were not married.
It ended very badly for the guy.
Soon after they bought it, she decided she didn't like him anymore. Her Dad held the mortage.
He got screwed big time.”

“To answer your question - just the electrical service upgrade to a 200 amp panel would cost about $2,000 in my area.”

“Ruby, RUN FROM THIS HOUSE. Trust me here. I think that the land is nice, the slab is nice, but the age I am guessing from the panel is going to almost necessitate TOTAL replacement of electrical. I am betting the Interior wiring is not to code, there is a REAL possibility that you will find LEAD and other nasties in there.

If the wiring is the old style, you are talking BIG BUCK$$ for total replacement.”

“XL - but if she's going to gut the place anyway the electrical upgrade (past the breakers) won't be a big deal.

Ruby, you need to figure in those costs, too. Not just upgrading the panel and the feed from the pole outside.”

“I'm not sure I'd be scared of this house. What year was it built? YOu can probably do some checking to make sure this doesn't coincide with lead or asbestos use. Asbestos abatement prices have dropped dramatically in recent years. As far as the wiring issue, Ruby meet birch, birch meet Ruby. I'd get his advice for sure. Getting the carpet and replacing isn't a big deal, but is probably 10k.

If all you're talking about is 10k for carpet and 5k for wiring and breaker box then it might not be too bad. A $500 home inpsection would be money well spent. They're usually cheaper than that here but you need to notify them of the conditions ahead of time and also to check what all you want checked as far as appliances go. Also, don't wrap the new appliance cost into your home. Do you really want to take 30 years to pay off that frig that'll last about 10?”

“Built in 1958

Here's a link:

http://www.ruthnorlington.com/bin/web/real_estate?acnt=AR172319&ZKEY=&action=ACTIVATE_FRAMES&button=&tm=&linkout=http%3A%2F%2Fmccolly.com%2Flistings%2F%3Faid%3D003600024%26oid%3D003600014%26temp%3D1%26aname%3DRuth%2BNorlington%26aimg%3D1%26agent_hasfeat%3D4”

“Ruby, depending on how involved the service change is you could go as cheap as maybe $1300 to well over $2000. Either price will get you a working system. But the quality of materials will differ (as may the the work). Make sure the electrician is licensed and insured (verify his policy, trust me) try to hire a contractor who can pull his own permit (vs a homeowners permit) so he/she (not you) are liable for corrections of violations. Dont let anyone sell you on aluminum service wire, there is a reason that it has been banned for use inside of a dwelling. Many contractors use AL to keep parts costs down (they get more loot). Dont worry about union vs non, worry about licenses and insurance.

When are you looking at doing the work? I might know someone. BTW my cousin owns a big roofing outfit in Plymouth if you need some shingles.”

“Being built in 58 is cool your regular wiring oughtta be fine, it may not have a grounding conductor but there are safe and legal and cost effective ways to remedy that.”

“The animal waste is likely to have ruined more than just the carpeting. I know of situations that have necessitated removal of subflooring and drywall (dogs will hike their leg and pee on the wall).
last edited: 6/19/06 11:00:47 AM”

“HPM beat me to this. Great minds think alike, LOL)”
StoveStomper
8:46:34 AM
6/19/06

Must be, because I was thinking the same thing too. ;-)”
lumberzac
8:54:19 AM


another vote for this route.”

“Ruby - The link you posted takes me to a search page. There are 9 homes listed for $159k. What address?”

“I'm not worried about big projects.
I just think you need to expect the hardest most costly options to happen and then be pleasently suprised when they end up being easier than you expected.

Either way you go, good luck with it.”

“311 E 1300 N
Chesterton”

“Are you sure it has a well?
Some of those old farm homes
used gravity fed springs. Small
cistern up on a hill behind
the house. Probably OK but a
lot of banks won't finance a
house w/ this system.”

“Positive there is no spring. It's a totally flat lot. The nearest hills around are the Hoosier National Lakeshore dunes a couple miles away.”

“Ahh...

MLS# 157557

This link should work: http://www.mccolly.com/listings/detail.php?lid=11692181&auid=&oid=003600014&aid=003600024&temp=1125&aname=Ruth+Norlington&aimg=1&chome=&agent_hasfeat=4”

“If that link is it, it sure shows better in the photos than what you are describing.”

“The internet is not smellivision.”

“That's kind of my point. The house appears to be good structurally. It's just been neglected for a long time. A good gutting, cleaning, replacing most of the appliances, and servicing the boiler and AC will do the trick I think.

There's even a large treeless area that Jon is already lusting over for a pole barn.”

“Oh hell, I'd go for it.”

“What I'm trying to say, is by looking at the pics I don't see where the gutting comes in. Ripping up the carpets, laying down a sealant on the walls and subflooring to stop the smell, lay new carpet and you are done?

When you say you need to gut it, I'm thinking "tear out all the drywall and flooring, all the cabinetry and existing appliances". Granted the pics leave a lot out, but I don't see the need for gutting.”

“It looks great! What a nice lot and the rooms are nice sized. No arguments over which boy gets the bigger room.”

“that's what we did. i know jack squat about handyman stuff but we went with the "semi neglected fixer upper with great potential" too.
i've done 90% of the work myself, learning as i go.
new floors, sinks, water softner, ceiling fans, a whole new bathroom, and wood furnace later and at this point i really don't know if we made the right choice or not.

I'll prolly feel better once the upstairs is done too.

i put up a pole barn too, that was the easiest task for me.”

“You would go for it HPM. Notice how closely cropped the photos are. The interior shots show specific objects.”

“Ruby I'd buy the place but I'd get those repair estimates and negociate as well as you can with the seller. I bought my fixer upper 14 years ago that was a diamond in the rough, I wanted deep draft waterfront and it was all I could afford. My initial investment was $52,000 and after years of sweat equity as well as real dollars it is worth around $250,000. It is not going to be easy nor cheap to fix it up I assure you. I'm working on a second place now that I'm currently renting. It had foundation failure, termites, bad wiring you name it. I paid $66,000 initially for it but since it is waterfront and after my repairs are finished I wouldn't sell it for less than $150,000. It can be profitable to buy that house but like I said your work is cut out for you. While working on this house I first had to uproot a family of cats that had claimed it as well. Tearing out termite eaten boards covered in roach poop earned me a respiratory infection from breathing in spores and staff infection from a cut in the process. Make sure you wear a mask, gloves, etc. to protect yourself. When you finish the pride you will feel will be worth it.
last edited: 6/19/06 3:08:05 PM”

“How long has it gone without AC/heating? One of the worst things for a building is to do without conditioned air. If it's been off more than a few months be sure to bring the temp up SLOWLY!!!! Nothing will screw up the finishes like drastically changing the inside air. It will make cracks show up that are hairline, it cause door and window problems from a change in humidity, the list goes on.”

“I would definitely negotiate w/ the seller like Bateauxdriver suggested.

Next week I'm shelling out $3200 for 720 square feet of concrete to be laid (layed ?). Then after that is done, I'm extending my patio cover in the back the entire width of my house. That's 5 grand, only because I am having them stucco, wire for light fixture and paint it. The only problem I'm running into is my HOA. They are throwing a fit saying that the shed I want to put up against the backyard wall is too tall. Now I have to go looking for another one.

If I had known that double paned windows have a tendency to mildew from the seal breaking and moisture getting in there, I wouldn't have gotten the house in the first place. I feel for the lady down the street. She has replaced hers 4 times and they never get it right. In Arizona, when you buy a home and something like that has been replaced, the warranty doesn't extend to the second home owner. My windows are fine, *now*, but of course if the inspector at sale time tells me they need to be replaced, I have to do it.:(
last edited: 6/19/06 4:48:58 PM”

“Ruby, to answer your original question: I have been an electrical contractor in the state of Utah for many years, not currently active as such, but still in the trades. I hung up my tools for a planner position in an electrical maintenance group in the aerospace industry. That said, in my area, just to replace the service alone would probably run you in the neighborhood of $1800. That would include a new meter main, a new 42 circuit panel, and a reasonable length of service entrance cable to connect the two. I'm assuming the service drop is overhead from a pole, rather than a lateral buried in the earth. If it's buried, in my area the contractor supplies the underground cable. That could run as much as another $250-500 depending upon the length of the service run, and whether or not your local utility requires it to be in a raceway, or they allow direct burial.

That estimate is dependant upon many things, but should get you in the ballpark assuming Indiana and Utah building costs are similar. Bear in mind that will only replace your electrical service and does nothing to answer to the integrity of your branch circuit wiring. A good rule of thumb is this..... calculate the cost to wire a new home of the same square footage, then double it to determine the cost of a re-wire.

Based upon the square footage and amenities of the house that you linked to, I think real estate prices must be fairly similar between rural Utah and rural Indiana. That doesn't take into consideration the fact that this place obviously needs much more work than is indicated in the listing. Right now in my area contractors are quoting ballpark figures of $100 - $125 per square foot for new construction costs. That doesn't include the land of course.
last edited: 6/19/06 5:42:59 PM”