Israel Strikes Back!

“i have a plan to invade this chick that works on my floor. whoooeeee what guy wouldn't.

dam wedding ring keeps getting in the way though.

well, that and her sobriety.”

“On the one hand you could jump her bones and be her man.....

But the reason why you cain't is on the other hand.”

“

Why our Far Left supports this is beyond me.”

“Why our Far Left supports this is beyond me. - SS

MarkO, care to explain?”

“


last edited: 7/25/06 12:18:33 PM”

“Holy antiques and V8 food have caused the whole thang.”

“Did you ever think how tough it must have been for Smurfette?


You know I love how opponents of Israel get around eventually to BLAMING Israel for each action...

Here is a kicker, my fire department responded to a big building that was burning. Luckily we had a PREPLAN to deal with it...I guess by RL's theory I need to arrest the shift who did the preplan?

LOL. Look Israel has been dealing with people wanting to wipe them out (kinda IN the Palestinian constitution) since Day 1. Regardless they still offer more freedoms and acceptance to EVEN arabs and moslems than ANY other...that is ANY other nation over there. A Palestinian in Saudi Arabia is little better than a non person.
last edited: 7/25/06 1:01:52 PM”

“Today's report from the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon shows that they are busily repairing damaged roads in Hizballah controlled areas right in the middle of the war. Roads the IAF bombed specifically to impede Hizballah movement.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr09.pdf

Maybe a couple of more UN observation posts getting blown to hell would be appropriate.”

“The UN....I say target the blue helmets (LOL) Remember in the 1980s when the Christian Phalngist were hitting the Refugee Camps... with Israeli support....they would literally roll right past the road blocks.

That is until a US MARINE convinced the Tanks to turn around (LOL)
The UN is a JOKE.”

“I saw an interesting stat. on the NBC Nightly News. During the past two weeks, 400 civilians died in the Lebanon/Israel War. During that same period, almost 600 civilians were killed in Iraq.

What I like is that the news media didn't focus on the really, really bad news of the week from Iraq. They decided to put a positive spin on things and only focus on the really bad news.

Compared to Iraq, Lebanon was the feel-good story of the week.

But anyone who thinks this whole thing was really about the two kidnapped soldiers is myopic.”

“So, reformed lurker, what about that linky? Or even an explanation in your own words...”

“IAF bombed UNIFIL outpost. Nice job! UNIFIL has been part of the problem for years and their efforts of working for and with Hezbolah is one of the reasons Lebenon is being attacked.”

“were they clearing the road between the armory and the gun positions? Road clearing is a UN responsibility isn't it?”

“http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL

Mutt, that's an article from the San Francisco Chronicle. But, I follow these things pretty closely and that's a widespread analysis.

BTW, the preplanned nature of the invasion doesn't make it right or wrong. It just means that this is not at all about two soldiers. It's a strategic move on the part of Israel.

And my overall question is whether this strategic move ultimately helps or hurt Israel and the United States.”

“What I love, BTW, is the fact that a year or two ago, we had an Israeli officer giving U.S. officials Powerpoint presentations about the invasion of Lebanon. And now Condi runs all around with boxes of food aid looking for peace. Those kinds of PR moves are meant only for U.S. consumption. They're meant to fool Americans who don't follow the situation closely. BTW, Mutt, I have no links for that. That is my own interpretation.”

“Reformed...I agree, if we preplan something then show it as an example it is evidence we intended for it to happen...since thought is now a crime I plan on arresting my entire ladder company for their preplan of businesses that burn (LOL).......
You are such a pregnant goldfish.....”

“BTW, just so I don't have to do this again, I'd recommend something called a newspaper. It tends to include information about what is actually happening in the world. And pretty cheap, too. Usually 50 cents. :)”

“Don't worry RL, XL is just a fascist who doesn't know he's a fascist, which is really, if you think about it, the root of fascism: stupidity. If you are too dumb to know what fascism is, and you tout its' ideals, yet deny that you are once, you are either insincere or stupid, XL being a shining poster-boy of the latter.

How's married life treatin' ya RL?”

“"if we preplan something then show it as an example it is evidence we intended for it to happen...since thought is now a crime I plan on arresting my entire ladder company for their preplan of businesses that burn (LOL).......
You are such a pregnant goldfish.....”

To strip away the sarcasm a bit. LOL! Preplanning is a must! If you don't preplan for every contingency you will be caught with your dick in your hand such as Israel was with the Yom Kippur War. They were completely taken by surprise and it cost them 2,000 dead and some thousands more wounded.

did Israel have a plan in place? Hell yeah. They'd be stupid not to. Now were they sitting around saying "Come on. Come on and do something. Give us a reason!". No, of course not. If they were they would not have sat around for 6 years after having left Lebanon, thus fulfilling their part of UN Res. 1559 while at the same time Hezbolah was not only NOT disarmed and disbanded as the resolution called for but they enjoyed a massive build up and complete freedom of movement provided by UNIFIL.

This is why I LOL when people complain about Israel's "disproportionate reaction". Yes it is disproportionate. Disproportionately low.”

“LOL. Buddah have you ever spent time with a woman where you didn't have to pay for it (LOL)....apparently you don't even have a grasp on the term fascisim. And reformed the great thing about most newspapers is if you miss one the other one has the same thing or the major evening news has pretty much the same slant.....”

“I had to go El Fuego...I know that the fighting between Israel and Hezbolla is a complicated issue but WTF is up with Israel bombing the UN site, Red Cross relief areas, people evacuating in caravans, water suplly systems, airports, etc?? Is this a war of Israel against Lebanon or Israel against Hezbollah?

Usually I'm in support of Israel but now I think they're a bunch of heartless, overly aggressive, #&%!$-stirrers. I'm sick of Israel's tactics in this war.”

“Sorry, Buddha, but sometimes the water in my tank gets a little murky and I get frustrated. Bubble. Bubble.

Married life is great. K and I bought a house in April and have all of our stuff moved in. So, we finally bought this computer, hence my reappearance on TT.

We are having a party this Sat. if you or any of the old Michigan Mountaineers crew wants to join us. Just email me at eriehiker@yahoo.com.”

“Twinkle there were always some thing I never understood about the attempt to "civilize" war. First if you are a peace keeper and rounds are coming in...GET OUT...you have no purpose there.

Second we all have seen WAY to many places where the HEZBOs are hiding weapons and military targets under the protection of Red Cross and civilian targets (heck the heroic Islamic Terrorists hid weapons in Mosques in Iraq).

In that case those people need to understand that you are abusing the protection and now it is a TARGET.

Twinkle you know I have seen WILLING human shields being used in situations. My answer is the term accessory. And the response is "sucks to be you"”

“Thanks RL, your argument is as I thought.”

“What seems strange to me is that the real problem in the Israel vs. All Neighbors War is the lack of effective governance in places like Lebanon, Palestinian Territories, etc.

In Lebanon, we had a weak-but-getting-stronger central, elected government that was trying to get enough influence to take control of the entire government. We also had a reasonably functional economic system there.

That government was only in existence for about a year. I don't see what was wrong with letting that government work on the problem for awhile.

I think that, ultimately, the U.S. goals in the Middle East should be order first, democracy second, morality/ethics third.

The free flow of oil from the Middle East supports our Democratic way of life. Order protects that. It should be the most important goal.”

““I had to go El Fuego...I know that the fighting between Israel and Hezbolla is a complicated issue but WTF is up with Israel bombing the UN site, Red Cross relief areas, people evacuating in caravans, water suplly systems, airports, etc?? Is this a war of Israel against Lebanon or Israel against Hezbollah?

Usually I'm in support of Israel but now I think they're a bunch of heartless, overly aggressive, #&%!$-stirrers. I'm sick of Israel's tactics in this war.”


Hi Twinks! Always like to get your opinion on these types of things. You always bring a new slant to a discussion.

On the UN outpost:
If we look at the history of UNIFIL in Lebanon we can find:
* UNIFIL observers have frequently revealed the whereabouts of IDF counterinsurgence ambushes to the terrorists;
* UNIFIL observers, happy to augment their meager incomes with fat Iranian-funded wads of dollars by moonlighting for the Hizbolla terrorists, have served as artillery spotters to help direct terrorist fire against Israel;
* UNIFIL observers during the past 6 years have closed a blind eye to the massive construction of bunkers in South Lebanon, as well as the massive stockpiling of deadly weapons intended for use against Israel;
* UNIFIL observers have given free passage to terrorists on their way to infiltrating or attempting to attack Israel.
* UNIFIL observers have kept the terrorists updated and abreast of IDF movements.

Red Cross relief areas

I have not heard anything about this.

people evacuating in caravans

I have not heard this. Linkage?

water suplly systems, airports

This is controlling infrastructure. I have not heard about bombing water supplies but it wouldn't surprise me. The airport and the roads have been bombed to cut off the enemy’s supply lines.

Israel has gone far and away above the rules of the Geneva Convention in order to limit civilian casualties. They drop leaflets and give plenty of warning to civilians so they can get out before Israel attacks. It would make little sense to warn the people only to bomb them as they try to get away. Israel is very mindful that the world is watching very closely and they are not going to give the world any more reason than they must in order to get things done before the world demands they stop. We must also keep in mind that the terrorist modus operandi is to embed themselves within the civilian communities in order to use them as shields and if they do get bombed they can use the casualties as propaganda and sympathy. And let us not be one sided either. Do you know how many thousands of rockets have been fired into Israeli towns and cities in order to hit ONLY civilians?

Is this a war of Israel against Lebanon or Israel against Hezbollah?

It is Israel against Hezbolah. As long as Lebanon stays out of the way their military will not even be evolved.”

“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/23/AR2006072300737.html

BTW, everyone should read the article above from Monday's Washington Post. While everyone is focused on this little spat between Israel and Lebanon, Pakistan is going full bore ahead with its nuclear weapons program.

And remember that it was Pakistan that supplied Iran, Libya and North Korea with nuclear weapons material and know-how.”

“THe government in Lebanon (recently elected) has as its platform the destruction of Isreal.

Now if say Mexico elected a President and Parliment who openly stated they would "DESTROY America" I am sure we would laugh it off.

If next week Brownsville and El Paso started getting shelled. We would be pissed. But if one morning we find that they are kidnapping American citizens in cross border incursions...then some action would be called for. This is all part of the real Constitutional requirement of Defending the borders thing that is so pesky to both parties in Washington right now.

But lets say the Mexican government claimed these actions were part of a splinter group. They claimed they did not have the power to stop it.

I am betting that with few exceptions (Violin being one (LOL)) there would be a call to enforce our safety.”

“Hey Nigal, the two incidences I referred to that you've not heard about were reported last week on the BBC World News: bin/search/results.pl?scope=all&edition=i&q=Red+Cross+hit+in+Lebanon" target="_blank">http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=all&edition=i&q=Red+Cross+hit+in+Lebanon
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5184122.stm

I suspect that because Israel has been at war since its inception its civilians are better prepared for air strikes, i.e., bomb shelters. I don't know if the situation is the same for the Lebanese civilians. Also, if this is a war against a specific target, the Israeli army which is quite savvy and technologically armed most likely could approach the Hezbollah targets in a much more precise mannaer. No, I think it;s an all out war against this country. Too many civilians are being killed by the Israerli forces for what I belive are intentional reasons.

Yes, Hezbollah is targeting civilians also. But is the Hezbollah not a terrorist regime lurking within Lebanon? Like the US trying to get at the Taliban in Afghanistan? Like the US in Iraq?

The military is already involved!”

“I am writing a SF novel that has the destruction of humanity in our solar system beginning with a disagreement between Pakistan and India over ownership of an asteroid that results in a Nuclear exchange on Earth between those two countries.

But like your post, my post has really nothing to do with this thread either.”

“Why does the U.S. look the other way when it comes to Pakistan and nuclear weapons, or support of terrorists?

The cozy relationship goes way back to a time when Pakistan was courted since India claimed "non-aligned" status and would kiss up to neither of the cold war opponents.

India refused U.S. military presence......geez, maybe they had enough of England's dominance for all those years.

To '50s maddog cold warriors this meant.....well, you're either with us or against us!

The U.S. just had to have some place close to the U.S.S.R. so they sold our souls to the terror-lovin' devils in Pakistan.

May 1, 1960 Francis Gary Powers took off from Peshawar for a spy mission of nearly 4,000 miles over Russia.

The rest is history.

Oh yeah, the Mexicans are gonna get us!”

“AH the peacful religion of Islam....

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archives/008799.shtml”

“Chick Filet makes the best fries.”

“I like fried sushi.”

“I couldn't follow your links. Can you repost them?

“I suspect that because Israel has been at war since its inception its civilians are better prepared for air strikes, i.e., bomb shelters.”


Yes. In 1986 Israel enacted a law that stated all new houses and living dwellings must include a concrete reinforced room with a steal door.

“Also, if this is a war against a specific target, the Israeli army which is quite savvy and technologically armed most likely could approach the Hezbollah targets in a much more precise mannaer.”

Israeli Mossad is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world and they do do surgical strikes with smart bombs. You can take down a 5 story building while leaving the house next door standing. All of this can not over come the terrorist’s tactics though when they force civilians to store missiles in their basements. It does not help when Hezbolah block civilians from leaving these areas because they need them for shields. Israel does NOT want to kill innocent people and they are doing all they can to avoid it. This does not mean it can be avoided altogether. And as I said before it would completely against Israel’s best interest to conduct blatant war crimes while the world is watching. They want as clean a war as they can conduct so they can reach the objectives they want.


“No, I think it;s an all out war against this country. Too many civilians are being killed by the Israerli forces for what I belive are intentional reasons.”

Israel is not against Lebanon. Only Hezbolah. There are many Lebanese people who are waiting in exile, cheering Israel on hoping they will finish the job so they may return home. One Lebanese woman who is a Christian has been very vocal and she went on CNN to speak about how she hopes Israel finishes it. Before she even got out of the CNN studios she received a text message saying her Lebanese citizenship had been revoked.

Also if you do some study on the Israeli occupation of Lebanon you’ll find that many Jewish commandos lost their lives in order to save many, many Christian Lebanese civilians who were targeted by the Muslims.

”Yes, Hezbollah is targeting civilians also. But is the Hezbollah not a terrorist regime lurking within Lebanon?”

Yes. Much like Al Qada lurking within countries around the globe.

“Like the US trying to get at the Taliban in Afghanistan? Like the US in Iraq?”

No. The Taliban was the Afghanistan government. Hezbolah is not the ruling government in Lebanon. Israel is fighting Hezbolah, not the official government or military of Lebanon.”

“All well debated points. I, however, am still against Israel's handling of this whole affair. But then again, war is a messy affair.”

“OK, I was able to get to this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5184122.stm

Yes, this looks bad but did you not notice that their coverage was completely one sided and their biggest source was Al Jizier? I absolutely hate the "biased media" card and refuse to play it but at the same time it has to be pointed out that the BBC is hardly considered to be unbiased towards Israel. Read as many different sources as possible and get as many different views as you can. And by saying this I am not attempting to dismiss your links. As I said, it is impossible to conduct a bloodless war and bad things will happen in the proccess but that does not mean Israel does not have the right to defend itself.”

““All well debated points. I, however, am still against Israel's handling of this whole affair. But then again, war is a messy affair.”

And that's fine. I respect your opinions. And in the end it is their war, not ours...yet. Countless nations have went to war for less and conducted themselves much worse, including the United States.”

“Twink....this is not an Affair...this is called a WAR for Survival.”

“Also, if this is a war against a specific target, the Israeli army which is quite savvy and technologically armed most likely could approach the Hezbollah targets in a much more precise mannaer. - Twinkle

Twinkle Toes isn't the only one confused about Israel's strategy. From Stratfor:

The question that is now most pressing is figuring out exactly what Israel is up to. Hezbollah's strategy is fairly clear-cut: Now that the war has started, it cannot maneuver in the open, for fear of Israeli air power; therefore, it is holding its positions, absorbing the airstrikes and engaging Israeli troops as they approach. Hezbollah continues to fire rockets at Israel. The longer it fights and the more resistance it offers, the more of a psychological blow it inflicts on the Israelis and the more it improves its credibility as a fighting force and its influence among groups resisting Israel. In an ideal form, the Israelis would be drawn into Lebanon, forced into an occupation and forced to fight the kind of counterinsurgency in which the United States is now engaged in Iraq.

Israel's stated goal is the destruction of Hezbollah's ability to wage war. This means shutting down Hezbollah's rocket attacks, engaging and destroying deployed forces, destroying Hezbollah's support infrastructure -- and doing this so thoroughly that Hezbollah either will not recover its capabilities or will take years to do so. Israeli forces also must do this without being drawn into an occupation that Hezbollah and others could draw out into an extended counterinsurgency operation. In other words, Israel's goal is to shatter Hezbollah without an extended occupation of Lebanon.

Thus far, Israel's strategy has focused on an air campaign. Supplementing the air campaign has been a substantial mobilization of ground forces and a very shallow insertion of these forces along the southern Lebanese frontier. This is where the mystery begins.

Historically, Israel has tried to fight wars as quickly as possible. There are three reasons for this. First, Israel is casualty-averse and fears wars of attrition. The rapid destruction of enemy forces has always been a principle. Second, large-scale mobilization is extremely expensive for Israel economically. Wars need to end quickly, so as to keep the costs of mobilization low. Third, Israel has a dependency on the United States. An example is its need for additional precision-guided munitions and for jet fuel. The United States normally supports Israel but usually wants to see cease-fires put into place as quickly as possible. Therefore, Israel typically has to end major, conventional combat operations as quickly as possible. In previous wars the Israeli model has been sudden, surprise initiation of war or -- when not possible, as in 1973 -- rapid seizure of the initiative, followed by rapid termination.

But to this point, Israel is fighting a very different war. It essentially has been conducting an extended air campaign without significant engagement on the ground. Now, Israeli commanders, heavily influenced by American thinking, have been attracted to the air option: It holds open the promise of destroying the enemy without exposing Israel's forces to extensive casualties. The war can be conducted in an environment in which air power is immune from defenses.
[snip]
People we have contacted in Israel keep talking about Israel having some surprises. We already are surprised by the amount of time between the initiation of the air attack and the initiation of a major ground offensive. If the Israelis have more surprises waiting, it will be interesting to see what they are. However, at this point, unless Israel wants to abandon the goal of rendering Hezbollah harmless for an extended period of time, it would seem to us that a massive raid in force, followed by destruction of infrastructure in detail, followed by withdrawal, is the most realistic option remaining.

One other possible explanation for events (and perhaps this is the surprise) is that Israel has been taken aback by Hezbollah's abilities and resilience, and that the Israelis are not certain they can attain their political ends militarily. In other words, the cost of imposing defeat on Hezbollah might be seen as so high, or perhaps unattainable, that the outcome of the war must be something of a stalemate. If that is the case, the balance of power in the region has shifted dramatically and Hezbollah has, in fact, won a victory.
[snip]”

“Here’s something of spiritual interest. Against million to one odds a first century copy of psalms was found in a bog in Ireland. The book was open to Psalms 83. This is significant to the religious because Tehillim 83 is one of the main psalms that the Jews and Chassidic Gentiles have been reciting during prayer asking for Israel’s protection. But of course to the non religious it is coincidence with little significance.

CNN Story

What Tehillim 83 says”

“Here is an interesting view from some Lebanese people who support Israel. Be sure to watch Brigitte's interview.

American Congress for Truth”

“So are you saying that God let this manuscript sit in the mud for 1000 years just so he could bring it out now over a simple little incursion into lebanon or that God created a 1000 year old manuscript, opened it to the right page then stuck it into the mud after listening in to the Irish Engineer's prayers to learn where he would be digging mud the next day?”

“I mean, if God wanted to help, why doesn't he create a satchel charge and bury it under a Hezbollah weapons cache?”

“I find the psalm book story a bit suspicious. Don't you? I'd very much like to see the dig site documentation. I don't doubt that a book was pulled from a bog but given the timing of the discovery and the nature of the supposed open page....just seems a bit fanciful. Not completely impossible but very, very suspicious.”

“Well if we consider the fact that 1st century writings are so old, rare and fragile I would doubt someone would take one and stick it in the mud to make some type of religious statement. Is it real? Hell I don’t know. What’s it mean to me? Not too much. I was saying Tehillim 83 before they found it and I’ll be saying it long after.

I don’t normally go for the long reaching connections but sometimes things do happen at very weird times in very weird ways.”

“The BBC is an eminently credible source. One might disagree with it at times, but no one is credible if the BBC isn't.”

“BBC

LMAO!!!!!!!!!”