Israel Strikes Back!

“Yeah, you're way off in your thinking. Do you hunker down someplace you KNOW is about to be blown to shlt or do you get your ass out of town until it blows over?

[scratching head]”

“Here's what it's like over there dealing with terrorists. (no gore or deaths)

A Paleistinain ambulance transporting explosives

A UN ambulance picks up Palestinian fighters and gets them out of danger They are not wounded and the UN is neutral, right? Riiiiight!

A young woman who was treated by Israeli doctors returns for a 6 month check up...with a bomb belt on.”

“Wouldn't the world be a better place if #&%!$s would quit doing these things?”

“Fair enough Nigal. I am trying to catch up on Lebanon, I let it slide after the "end" of the civil war.

One other question: Hezbollah is Lebanese and more importantly, appears to Be Southern Lebanon. So once again isn't warning civillians of attack odd? Or is this how war is conducted now?

And since Israel seems to be having some difficulty maybe they should shut the #&%!$ up?”

“I think people should be very careful about giving hizbollah a victory for holding out. What is the result if Isreal shows restraint in their attack WHILE destroying Hizbollah infrastruture and are still painted as the losers and aggressors? Next time Isreal will just roll in without the fliers or the concern for civilians.”

“Destroying their infrastructure means they lose the "Hearts & Minds" of Southern Lebanon. I believe Holding out gives Hezbollah power in Lebanon. This might freak out the Sunnis and Christians which in turn may re-arm their militias. I believe no one is looking forward to another civil war in Lebanon, with maybe Syria returning?”

““One other question: Hezbollah is Lebanese and more importantly, appears to Be Southern Lebanon. So once again isn't warning civillians of attack odd? Or is this how war is conducted now?

And since Israel seems to be having some difficulty maybe they should shut the #&%!$ up?”

Hezbolah is Iran. The Lebanese people are are not very fundamentalist and are probably closer to Qutar as for openness. Lebanon was charged with disarming and dissolving Hezboalh in the UN Res 1559 but for the last six years has done jack squat. Why? The Prime Minister yesterday praised Hezbolah for it’s strength and sacrifice. That’s like the Saudies praising Al Quada. Israel drops the leaflets and warns civilians so they have chance to get away. That’s the only reason. I’d say only the US and Israel do this. It’s so thing like Qada don’t happen where civilian women and children get hit. Very sad.

“Destroying their infrastructure means they lose the "Hearts & Minds" of Southern Lebanon. I believe Holding out gives Hezbollah power in Lebanon. This might freak out the Sunnis and Christians which in turn may re-arm their militias. I believe no one is looking forward to another civil war in Lebanon, with maybe Syria returning?”

Not too sound callous but fukc the hearts and minds of the Lebanese. It’s not about the hearts and minds of others. It’s about the protection of their country. Will Hezbolah gain power? I don’t think so. The Lebanese are not stupid people. I have faith they will remember why Israel came to town…Hezbolah. But then again, most Arab Muslims do tend to side with terrorists rather than Jews. So who knows?”

“Thats my point, Nigal. If Isreal plays to the sensitivities of Arab Muslims, and are still painted as the bad guy aggressors and are labeled as militarily weak, the next time they will just ignore the sensitivities of Arab Muslims.”

“Because Israel does not want the rest of the world pissing down their backs for being "mean".

Here's an interesting article about the terrible deaths of those women and kids. Something smells fishy.

Most of the world’s nations were in an uproar over an attack on a cluster of buildings in Kfar Kana that killed more than 50 civilians early Sunday, half of whom were children.

The condemnations came despite the fact that the IDF dropped leaflets into the village five days earlier, warning the residents of the impending attack and advising them to leave the war zone.

Israel initially took responsibility for the attack, since it was indeed carrying out strikes in the area since Hizbullah terrorists often store weapons caches in residential buildings and set up their rocket launchers between the buildings in areas with a concentrated civilian population.

Senior IDF officers told reporters at a news conference Sunday evening, however, that there is a contradiction between the time of the bombing and reports of the explosion. Air Force Commander Amir Eshel left open the possibility that Hizbullah terrorists blew up the building or that an unknown cause set off explosives which were stored in the structure.

He explained that recorded information shows that Israeli Air Force planes bombed the building between midnight and 1:00 a.m. and that the next attack was at 7:30 a.m. and was up to 500 yards away. Eshel said reports of the explosion that caused the civilian deaths came around 8:00 a.m. "It is not clear what happened" between 1:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m., he said.


http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=108783”

“All war is total.

If you decide to start one, better go all the way.

It's why Israel shouldn't have any little ninny 48 hour cease fire. It's why we should have a draft.

We've got Osama in some garden villa in Pakistan, the Taliban running free in Afghanistan, the U.S. military ceding large swaths of Iraq to the insurgents.

If the goals of these wars are truly necessary, we should spare no cost.”

“The US should declare war on anyone that doesn't take our foreign aid or buy arms from us.Oh, and be total about it.”

“Gotta keep the gun-runners happy.”

“What do I know? I'm just a burned out old demented hippie wino that spends his days putting runs in the stocking market.”

“Salebored and Mark,

I put the work "if" in my last post.

I think that three of the four wars that we are currently fighting are garbage wars that never should have been fought.

But, I do believe that if a war is important enough to fight, it should be fought with all resources.

Powell Doctrine anyone?”

“Lebanon is a republic in which the three highest offices are reserved for members of specific religious groups:

the President must be a Maronite Catholic Christian.
the Prime Minister must be a Sunni Muslim, and
the Speaker of the Parliament must be a Shi'a Muslim

The Hezbollah (Arabic: حزب الله‎ ḥizbu-llāh[1], meaning Party of God) is a Lebanese Islamist Shiite organization and political party, with a military arm and a civilian arm. It was founded in 1982 with the declared aim to fight the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon that lasted until 2000. Hezbollah is currently led by its Secretary General, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah.

Along with the Amal Movement, Hezbollah is the main political party and military organization representing the Shia community, Lebanon's largest religious bloc. It is also a recognized political party in Lebanon, where it has participated in government. The civilian wing participates in the Parliament of Lebanon, taking nearly 11% of the seats (14 out of 128) and the bloc it forms with others, the Resistance and Development Bloc, 27.3% (see Lebanese general election, 2005). It is a minority partner in the current Cabinet.

Throughout most of the Arab and Muslim worlds, Hezbollah is highly regarded as a legitimate resistance movement. According to a poll released by the "Beirut Center for Research and Information" on 26 July during 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah's fight with Israel, a rise of 29 percent on a similar poll conducted in February. More striking, however, is the level of support for Hezbollah's resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hezbollah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.

all from wikipedia.

Southern Lebanon is Shia and yes, Iran exerts strong influence over Hezbollah. But Southern Lebanons Infrastructure is Hezbollah. Support for them is strongest there.

I really don't think Hezbollah can lose here unless they are wiped out. Maybe.

Why am I getting this weird feeling of deja vu?”

“Once again Isreal can't sit back and allow what is essentially an armed incursions by a neighboring country as well as missile attacks.

If a drug cartel took over in Northern Mexico and became a participating member of the Mexican government and was systematically shelling US cities and making crossborder raids that killed US soldiers and took them prisoner, what should the US do in Mexico elects to do nothing?”

“It's very deja vu because it is following in the PLO's footsteps of trying to change from a total terrorist group to a terrorist group in political clothing.”

“I don't disagree with Israels response and have said so on numerous occassions. Just that they are between the proverbial and definitive Rock & a Hard Place.

Interesting point Nigal. It seems completely deja vu for Lebanon. Will Syria invade to protect the status quo? I mean after Israel leaves and if there is an upheaval?”

“"Will Syria invade to protect the status quo? I mean after Israel leaves and if there is an upheaval?"

Very well could be but this is the very reason why Israel needs to be able to do what they started to do. I laugh my ass off when I hear the talking heads on tv demanding a cease fire and a call to negotiate. Hezbolah has never made it a secret it's main goal is to destroy the Jews and Israel. How the phuck do ya negotiate with that? It's like asking Bill Gates to please leave the computer industry. Killing Jews is what they do and they won't stop.

BTW- besides Al Quada no other terrorist group has killed more Americans than Hezbolah.”

“Get your moneys' worth guys, the billions we as taxpayers have put into region, at least comes back in the form of a good argument.”

“Hezbollah seems like a perfectly rational group to me. They have to make up a big deficit in terms of military strength, so they use guerrilla and terrorist tactics to even the playing field.

That is certainly immoral, but it's not irrational.

And with a rational player there will almost always be the possibility of productive negotiation.

One of the problems we've had during the past decade is that we've chosen the people to negotiate with. We liked Fatah and the Palestinian Authority, so we negotiated with them, but the average citizen was walking with their feet to Hamas.

Same thing with Hezbollah.

If we ever want a solution to this, we have to make a deal with the devil.”

“so you believe that we, and Isreal, should agree that Isreal has no right to exist?”

“It's looking more and more like it wasn't even Israeli fire that killed some 50 people in Qana last weekend...

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm

I've been hearing some interesting stories coming from the region. There is a manufacturer in northern Israel that had to shut down his plant due to the rocket attacks and electricity problems. A competitor in the south called the guy up and told him to bring his workers down to his plant to work. He said his people would run first shift and he and his company can run a second shift.

I also heard that cabs are charging up to $1,000 to take people out of south Lebanon.”

“Isreal is still striking back?

That's pathetic.
C'mon, it only took the Empire only 124 minutes to strike back and they even got Luke's hand too.

Amateurs.”

“but the rebels weren't backed by the UN, err i mean the conflict wasn't observed by the UN”

“Israel/Lebanon: Israel Responsible for Qana Attack
Indiscriminate Bombing in Lebanon a War Crime
(Beirut, July 30, 2006) – Responsibility for the Israeli airstrikes that killed at least 54 civilians sheltering in a home in the Lebanese village of Qana rests squarely with the Israeli military, Human Rights Watch said today. It is the latest product of an indiscriminate bombing campaign that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have waged in Lebanon over the past 18 days, leaving an estimated 750 people dead, the vast majority of them civilians.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/30/lebano13881.htm

I'm sorry. I can find examples of Hezbollah abuses but none regarding human shields? Were some posted here?”

“I'm sorry. The human shield angle smacks of pure propoganda but I am keeping an open mind about it. What i could not ignore was a disproportionate amount of "news" stories centered on a quote:

Hezbollah Uses Human Shields
A day after criticizing Israel for "disproportionate" strikes against civilians, U.N. humanitarian chief Jan Egeland accused Hezbollah of "cowardly blending" among Lebanese civilians.

"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," Egeland said.

"I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/007096.html

Google the phrase in bold:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Hezbollah+must+stop+this+cowardly+blending+...+among+women+and+children%2C%22+&btnG=Google+Search

A "decent" news outlet from the google search:

LARNACA, Cyprus — The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of "cowardly blending" among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205349,00.html

However, Google Jan Egeland and you get some context:

UN humanitarian chief blasts Hizbullah

The UN humanitarian chief accused Hizbullah of "cowardly blending" among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.

During that visit he condemned the killing and wounding of civilians by both sides, and called Israel's offensive "disproportionate" and "a violation of international humanitarian law."

"Consistently, from the Hizbullah heartland, my message was that Hizbullah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," he said. "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291989232&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I think there is a huge difference between "Human Shield" and "blending", no? If anything, the cartoons posted show a difference. I'm not saying blending is right, but what does it mean? Fighting in civillian clothes? Fine. That's wrong. But its a big jump from that to using humans as shields while in combat.

And don't think Jan is all that happy with Israel:

UN aid chief says Israel has 'created a generation of hatred'

United Nations humanitarian chief Jan Egeland accused Israel on Wednesday of committing "catastrophic mistakes" in its attack on Hizbullah, which have caused civilian casualties and alienated the Lebanese public

The UN's under secretary-general for humanitarian affairs and emergency relief coordinator, Egeland called for an immediate cessation of hostilities. "The rockets have to stop. The terror has to stop. But please remember that for every civilian killed in Israel there are more than 10 killed in Lebanon. It has to stop on both sides." He charged that Israel had used "excessive" and "disproportionate" force in violation of international humanitarian law, and dismissed Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni's contention that proportionality is measured in relation to the threat posed by a force

Egeland reiterated his condemnations of Hizbullah's tactics. "Armed men should not cowardly hide among civilians. It will inflict civilians casualties," he said, calling Hizbullah's cross-border kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers "a mega-catastrophe."

But, he stressed, "Civilians must be protected, and when there are many more dead children than armed men, something is fundamentally wrong, not only with how the armed men behave and where they seek hiding, but also in the response."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292006828&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


To tell you the truth, I'm really not sure what I think
last edited: 8/02/06 12:16:27 AM”

“I think if one group wages war on a country they have no right to complain if that country wages war back at them. Don't #&%!$ because your opponent has a greater ability to rain down destruction upon you than you can against them.

Whether they are "blending in" or using non-combatants as "shields" is just semantics. Hizbollah is using the civilians as shields to protect their command and control and their weapons and supply caches”

“Bear I'm not going through this all over again so here's a post I made on another board that applies here also:

It's a frickin' war people. You dopn't put on kid gloves when you go out to illiminate a threat. We did that in Iraq and look at us today. Still fighting. Israel must fight more swiftly and more forcefully because unlike America they only have a limited amount of time until the UN, the EU and the rest come down on them and force them to halt. Let's not forget it was HEZBOLAH that started this #&%!$ by committing an act of war against Israel.

From a Lebonese blog:

But why a similar bur, an error? A premeditated massacre? A source generally quite informed tells us his version:
“Hezbollah, wedged by the 7 points suggested by the Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, who put a plan of deployment of the Lebanese army on all the territory and primarily at the South Lebanon, and thus the disarmament of the militia of the party of God, wanted to ruin these negotiations. It put in pace a plan machiavelic by creating an event which would enable him to cancel this project. Knowing very well that Israel will not have a state of heart to bombard civil targets, militants of Hezbollah installed a base of launching of rockets on the roof from a building in Cana and y piled up crippled children in the firm intention to see a counterpart on behalf of Israeli aviation and to create a new situation, using the massacre of these innocent to take again the initiative of the negotiations. ”
Adding: “they have uses Cana which was already a symbol of a massacre the innocent ones, they fomented a Cana 2”.

From Newsvine:

"The unanswered questions continue to pile up regarding the Qana incident. I am not saying that it definitely is not Israel's fault, nor am I saying that the deaths of children and civilians is anything but tragic...however, some things definitely need to be answered before I will be convinced that part or all of this tragedy is not the result of some Hizballah media shenanigans.

* The Time Gap: The IDF photos and records indicate that the building was hit (either directly or the launchers next to the building) between 12 and 1am. The building did not fall until 8am (seed) - seven to eight hours after the bombs hit. There is no explanation for this gap in time. If the building collapsed as a result of the bombs, why were there dozens of children in the building 8 hours later? And if the building did not collapse as a result of the bombs, why did it collapse?
* The Banner: within a few hours of the building collapse, there was a large rally in Beirut against Israel and the US. The rally featured a 30+ foot long poster featuring a picture of Condi and the words ""The massacre of children in Qana 2, is the gift of Rice. The clever bombs..Stupid". According to one comment that I have seen on Israel Matzav (by someone claiming to be a professional printer), making such a poster would be an all-day affair. In other words, for such a large, high-quality poster to be ready and in place within hours of the Qana incident, production would have had to start before the building fell down (hmmmm).
* Mr. Green Helmet: Check out these posts by EU Referendum (caution: graphic pictures). Apparently the same two guys (one in a green helmet, one in a white tee shirt) manage to show up in just about every picture, holding mangled children in different poses, with different anguished looks on their faces. Not only that, but at least one of them was also on the scene in Qana 1996. Although it is possible that this one guy was Mr. Hero Rescue Worker, saving the day and recovering all of the bodies, one might also posit that he is on Hizballah's PR team, and was conveniently on the scene to give the waiting reporters looks of anguish to capture on film and publicize throughout the world
* Children in the building: According to this Lebanese blog (English Google translation), Hizballah took a bunch of handicapped children, put them in the bomb shelter of this building, and then placed a missile launcher on top of the building for Israel to target. Dead children = good PR for Hizballah and more support for their cause from the Lebanese people.

More on this being not what it appears to be.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Article...omacy/8997.htm
http://yaakov.newsvine.com/_news/200...na?r=386208683
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/200...-this-man.html”

“I'm not happy with any of this. Hezbollah has deliberately fired rockets from areas where Israeli retaliation would be most likely to harm civillians. They seem to be calculating that Israeli retaliations can only cause so much civillian damage before international outrage causes the US to shut Israel down. Their actions make the most sense to me if they think having Israeli missles kill civillians is a good thing.

On the Israeli side, I think the long term policy of massive retaliation has done more harm than good - inside and outside the country. I hope it doesn't turn out that they have palyed into Hezbollah's hands. Zionist terror before and after the founding of Israel helped set the stage for what is going on now. Israel scored a wonderful coup when they last invaded Lebanon, and then screwed everything up by over-reaching.

I'd rather see Israel come out of this in the stronger position that Hezbollah. Right now it looks like the Iran/Syria/Hezbollah alliance has gained more from it - I hope that is reversed in the coming month. There are plenty of Sunni's who would love to see Hezbollah squashed, and that probably includes most of the Sunni governments (with Syria being the one big exception). Hopefully, this will work in Israel's favor.”

“As long as Isreal continues to exist as a country then I can't help but seeing that as a victory for Isreal and a loss for hizbollah.”

“OK. Semantics or not, right or wrong, what ped said. I can't see anything else but Hezbollah gaining from this. When the vast Majority of Lebanese Christians voice support for Hezbollah than Israel #&%!$ed up. And the Lebanese Sunni are also backing Hezbollah.

On July 27, Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon said that Israel had given civilians ample time to leave southern Lebanon, and that anyone remaining could be considered a supporter of Hezbollah. “All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah,”

So Southern Lebanon is a "free fire zone". It's fighting terrorism with terrorism.

They have probably helped breed a whole new generation of terrorists in Southern Lebanon. Israel will continue to exist but at what cost?”

““As long as Isreal continues to exist as a country then I can't help but seeing that as a victory for Isreal and a loss for hizbollah.”
Hyway
4:06:22 PM
8/02/06

By that logic, the guy who falls off the Empire State Building and hollers out "so far so good" 1/2 way down is winning.”

“Oh no, you mean they can't go back to the good old days of missiles raining down on their cities, hizbollah soldiers infiltrating their country and killing their citizens and every extremist muslim group in existence holding the position that Isreal has no right to exist?

The poor bastards.”

“The fact that some people here still attempt to equate the actions of a terrorist group with Isreal (or any other country for that matter) is mind boggling. Wake the F up. How you cannot see any difference speaks volumes. Yes, it's sad when "collateral" people die. But if you have a way to coexist with, bargain with, or war with a people bent on on your destruction (PERIOD) then by all means let us hear it. Dancing in a happy field with unicorns and your fellow man would be nice, but face some reality, please.

The man across the table from you wants to kill you. Nothing you can do or say will change his mind or stop him from trying to kill you: no UN resolution or spanking; no treaty. Go ahead, bargain away. Coexist. Show us how it's done.


The old adage is as true today as it ever was: DON'T BRING A KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT!”

“I mis spoke - Hezbollah did not threaten Israel's existence. So Israel's response is in question.

And semantics is everything in Propoganda, no? So there is a big difference between "Human Shield" and "Blending". Much like "collateral damage" is a beautiful euphemism. Makes it sound like saying "oopsy, I knocked over my fork while reaching for the roast beast" and not "I just wiped out 15 women and children to kill a terrorist"

If Israel is allowed to wage war the way they see fit then we should abandon any false pre-test of "war crimes" and never bring anyone to trial for acts commited during war.
last edited: 8/02/06 3:51:34 PM”

“how many Isreali reporters are running around in southern lebanon? Who is investigating and reporting on these "war crimes"? I don't know about you, but I think I will wait for less bias reports on what is happening on the ground in lebanon before I decide Isreal needs to be executed.”

“I don’t buy the whole, “They’re just breading more terrorists by fighting terrorists.” line. Sometimes the right thing is the hard thing. Why is it America is justified in going half way around the world to fight a country for harboring terrorists who attacked us but Israel is a sad sack of bassturds for defending it’s very borders?”

“hyway - hrw goes to the sites of alleged crimes and has some of the best experts in the world working for them (ie - explosive experts and their ilk)

nigal - I never said there was a difference. Well, maybe there is a difference - Israel has a harder job. I'm not saying I know the answer to the question but I'm not sure Israel should be shooting anything that moves in Southern Lebanon. And I'm pretty sure the US is not conducting it's war that way.”

“I admire Israels loyalty to its IDF folks. That would make me happy to know my Gov would back me up like that.

Israel will back down when they have met their long term goals. They have wanted and needed a reason to seek out and destroy the stockpiles of rockets, this was a great chance. They ought to exploit it and keep on keepin on till they feel they cant continue. This will be their last chance for another decade or so. The IDF is smart enough to take every opportunity (or make opportunity) to defend itself. the world was in a tizzy when Israel bombed the nuke factory in Iraq in 81 (hell even Reagan was furious) But they did want no one else would and had to do.

Or we can do some peer mediation and an intervention where we talk about our feelings.

Let the Merkavas roll...”

“I mostly agree with Birch on this one.

Hezbollah seems to be winning this war so far. That can't happen. Israel has to win.

And since they are already fighting, Israel should get as much as it can.

But I think that Israel will be in a weakened position when all of this is over.”

“Hwy: Funny how you defend your logic by refuting it - suggesting there are criteria for victory other than the fact that they are alive now.”

“My point is that Isreal isn't trying to wipe every muslim from the face of the Earth so they don't have to define victory as the destruction of hizbollah. But Hizbollah agenda is to wipe every jew, if not from the face of the Earth, then at least out of the middle east. So in affect, hizbollah is losing. No matter what world opinion of Isreal is, it doesn't erase Isreal.”

““My point is that Isreal isn't trying to wipe every muslim from the face of the Earth so they don't have to define victory as the destruction of hizbollah. But Hizbollah agenda is to wipe every jew, if not from the face of the Earth, then at least out of the middle east. So in affect, hizbollah is losing. No matter what world opinion of Isreal is, it doesn't erase Isreal.”

In a nutshell: "If the Arabs put down their weapons there'd be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons there'd be no more Jews."”

“nigal, you screwed it up.

"If the Arabs put down their weapons there'd be no more war. If the Jews put down their weapons there'd be no more Jews."”

“Tomato Tomoto. =)”

“Here's a nice video of Hezbollah fighters using houses to hide rocket launchers...

http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/files/cowards.wmv”