Rails to Trails

“This will probably go Fuego, and there may already be a thread on it but I'm too lazy to check, so here goes...
This program sucks! I don't know if any others here know about this but in Indiana they have started converting many of our abandoned rail road beds to paved walking, and bike riding trails. Now I know the Monon trail in Indianapolis has been a general success, however the new one is not very popular with many land owners on the west side of Indy. This is a track of land that in many places was never purchased to begin with, and bisects many privately owned properties. Now the tracks themselves have been gone for over 10 years, and nature has vigorously started reclaiming the narrow gravel rail road bed. Now they are out surveying it all so bridges can be rebuilt and a "trail" can be paved. Most land owners in this area are farmers, and don't want anything to do with the added traffic crossing their land. I will now listen to you opinions before pressing my case further, just to show that I am trying to stay open minded to the issue.”

“I have no opinion either way on your post, so this will have to go fuego without me. However, I have yet to see a rain to trail that had any scenic value. Up here they are generally flat, poorly maintained, and not as much fun as pedaling my ass on the back roads. More than anything, I miss the trains. They should start a trails to rails program and return a little nostalgia to this area.”

“Another very good point Nimble. I don't understand how it is even interesting. arrow straight, and flat as a pancake. Scenery? Just how many miles can you ride with nothing but corn fields on either side of you before you go completely insane? This will not get used by the targeted group, and will end up as just another place for the local kids to get in trouble. What a waste of money. When they first pulled out the rails, and ties there were kids racing in pick-ups and 4-wheelers from one small town to the next down the tracks, sometimes at night! This was incredibly dangerous, because the bridges were only wide enough for one vehicle, and left very little margin for error. What do they think will, happen when they pave the thing and clear all the small trees back out? This is a farm community and everyone drives 4X4's. Do they seriously think that one or two steel posts set in the pavement on the trail will stop these types of vehicles from getting onto the trail at any and all road crossings? I know it wouldn't have stopped me at 16 or 17 from doing any of the things mentioned.”

“There are very nice rails to trails in NY. I haven't heard of any major problems with them other then deranged motorists occasiuonally racing down them or ATV's. I haven't heard one (yet) landowner complaint.

It's been a great place for families with strollers & kids on bikes, without fear of traffic. There is the occasional assault in isolated areas near shelters etc.

I like it for events. (example) In Lake George,NY you can park near the rails to trails & walk in to the battlegrounds for events & fireworks etc. Walk out to your car & avoid the major traffic jams.”

“I am generally supportive of rails-to-trails.”

“I worked on the Rails to Trails Program in Savannah....pretty cool. But like lots of things we need to keep it in perspective. I personally love some of the trails they have made.”

“I think it would be a good idea to bring back the trains to move freight as a move to reduce truck traffic on the highways and conserve fuel in the process. It'll probably have to be done at some point as the population increases and demand for goods goes up as well. I can tell how much more traffic and especially truck traffic has increased just in the last 20 years by using the highway a 1/2 mile from where I live as an example. Years ago, I used to cross that highway on foot to hike in the local woods and it was no problem. Now there is so much traffic and so many trucks you will stand there a long, long time before a gap opens up to cross and it's still dangerous. Instead, I just walk down a 1/2 mile and cross under a bridge now. When I drive down to Philadelphia the expressway is loaded with traffic and lots of trucks and the railroad tracks seem empty. It just seems like the rails should be playing a more important part in moving goods.
last edited: 7/28/06 6:44:14 PM”

“It's another big government pork project. But I like the trails and all this farmer whining is silly. They've already got real roads running through their farms and the few people hiking or biking aren't a threat to their livelyhood. So much grumpy kermudgioning.”

“rails to trails in Tenn is pretty popular with most folks.
Greenways seem to cause the most problems being so close to homeowners in subdivisions”

“I don't know if the farmers object up here in NW Wisconsin. I probably wouldn't blame them if they did. We've already got ATV trails, snowmobile trails and cross country ski trails. The first two are generally traversed by red neck drunks and the latter are extremely underutilized. For me they are excellent places to hike since the drunks aren't on them until after dark and the skiers only use theirs one season(albeit the long one)of four. We should build up the railroads and let the illegal mexicans take the place of the chinese of the mid-1800's. I fondly recall (this is merely to bore you) my mother tracing the feet of my 5 brothers and I on a piece of paper and sending the order for back-to-school shoes off to Sears (@ Roebuck) in Minneapolis. Every afternoon, until the school order arrived, we would anxiously await the whistle of the 5 0'clock train coming over the Yellow River train bridge from Minneapolis. Excuse me, I have to go puke.”

“I've had good experiences with rails-to-trails routes. Several cities I've lived in have made good trail networks out of the old areas. Anything that gives people a chance to bike instead of drive can't be all bad.”

“I would rather have some sweet single track thru the woods and forests to ride on, and leave the tracks to the trains like nimblefoot says, my wife and I love a good train ride.”

“Amen, Bro.”

“Parts of the Elroy-Sparta train in Wisconsin are very senic. Great fun to go through those tunnels without a head/flashlight.”

“I have biked on several rail trails, and yes, they can be a bit of a bore. They are godsend for folks with little children and individuals that are intimidated by busy traffic. The Chief Ladiga trail near Anniston Al is a decent trail, but is only marginally scenic on its Northern terminus. Rural roads are plentiful here, which are the best. I do believe I would have no problem with a railtrail on my property.”

“There is an awesome Rails-to-Trails in Jim Thorpe, PA. It runs about 26 miles along the Lehigh(I think that's the name) River. Pennsy and I rode down and back (52 miles) in about 2.5 hours! He kicks a$$ in everything.”

“Glad to see some responses. A lot of the concern is for trespassing. Farmers and property owners in this area are pretty serious about running out trespassers. I have heard first hand accounts of vehicles being towed to impound with 4 slashed tires, and leaving the owner stranded many miles from home thinking their car had been stolen. This area is 20+ miles from any major city, which rules out large amounts of people from Indy using it unless they are serious bikers. There are no public lands that adjoin, or are even close to the new trail. There are also no towns larger than a couple hundred people. So what is the destination? The trail is propsed to run west out of Indy all the way to the Illinois state line.
My personal gripe: this trail forms my parents southern property line. With wooded acreage we have always had a rifle range in the back yard that was quite safe to shoot anything we could ever legally own. There are an abundance of raspberries, mushrooms in the spring, and deer, rabbit and squirrel that are all hunted and enjoyed by our family, and now much of this will be affected because these idiots will be building this sidewalk through our backyard. Is the state going to be held responsible because I had the M1 out punching some holes in paper and a biker that I couldn't even see takes one in the temple? Uh, no. This means we can't shoot here any more. In the summer (I know from first hand experience) people from larger towns drive out to the country, and just because they don't see a house in them thar woods must mean they can go do what they want in them, and take anything out of them that they please. "Huh? Scuse me? Get out." This happens in the fall too with slob hunters, and was a regular problem when the trains still ran. Fortunately mother nature has done an excelent job of reclaiming this strip, and it is now barely passable with a machette and the slobs have been generally leaving it alone. As soon as it is opened back up they will be right back again. Setting tree stands litterally with in sight of my parents house, on their land. Sound like what you would want your back yard to become? That is why I'm so angry about it.”

“So much grumpy kermudgioning.”
toejam
7:55:56 PM
7/28/06

LOL! I don't think I have aver been called a kermudgioner before... Thanks TJ. ;-)”

“part of my property was actually deeded access to the railroad which then was turned into a trail in the mid 80's. The Bearskin Trail in Northern WI. It is a very nice trail which I use almost everyday. It miffs me a bit to pay for the pass; since it's legally on my land... but it is a nice resource, so I bite back my rude comments when I give them my 15 bucks a year. The trail is used for snowmobiles in the winter, I don't use it then unless I'm on a sled. Because it's a straightaway they really open up their sleds just past the intersetion by my house. So I'd probably be run over.”

“Wow, paying to hike a trail that runs across your own land, that was stolen from you to begin with. That sounds like a little too large a chunk of pride for me to swallow...

That is like making the Native Americans pay property taxes for living on the rez. Wow.



BTW. There are a number of land owners who have refused to allow the surveyors on the property. We haven't gone that far though.”

“Some rails to trails are great. Some are totally fantastic. There was one in Nova Scotia I rode a lot when I worked there for a summer. I personally prefer the unpaved ones, but there are a lot of people who make gret use of paved ones.

Still, just because they can be great doesn't mean every one is great. I'd have to see how this one actually hurts the interests of the owners and occupants of the adjacent land - and what it offers others before taking a position.”

“Here is the link.


http://www.indianatrails.org/BnO_Trail.htm”

“They didn't steal anything from me. I only bought this house 3 years ago. But I did move up from Chicago in '89 and I have a great deal of appreciation (and willingnees to pay) for all the beauty up north. I live in the tourist capital of Northern WI. and this trail gives me and my kids an opportunity to get around, by bike in a safe manor. We can't safely ride our road, the tourists are dangerous, but we can use this trail as a safe and beautiful passage all the way from Minocqua to Tomahawk. I like that. I'm not saying it's a good thing for everyone, I'm just saying it's good for us.”

“What I like about rail trails is that they can connect local systems of hiking trails to create a much longer and more challenging route.

In the Detroit area, we have lots of nice state and county parks and game areas that are slowly but surely being connected by these things. So, you can take the 5 miles in one park and connect it with the 5 miles in another park and suddenly you have a pretty nice 12 mile hike.

I especially like the "underground" rail trails. Usually what happens is that the state or governing agency takes possession of the rail bed. These pretty quickly become open to hikers. Then there is a period of years of planning before the paving and publicizing begins.

So, it becomes something of a game to see what sections are legally and physically hikeable. And even more of a game to find the bushwack paths that connect to the more hard core hiking spots.

What I find kind of funny in Michigan is that all state land that is not state park or under special rules is open to camping during the fall, winter and spring. So, some of the rail trail beds are legally, technically open to backpacking - a rarity in the southern parts of the state.”

“I see the benefits for people who live in or near urban areas, but they are building this trail through an area with mostly tar and gravel roads, and the further west it goes you will find loose gravel, and even dirt roads.
Perhaps I should have been less broad in my initial statement. The B&O Line project from Hendricks County and on West sucks. There, thats better.
On their web site they actually seem to think that this will cut traffic congestion, and save on air pollution. WTF? I know of no one who would actually pedal 20+ miles each way to work on a daily basis. I can see it now...

(from a living room in Russelville, IN)

"Hey honey, I'm going to the mall to pick up a few things. I'll be back later."
"OK Dear. Be carefull."
(3 days later)
"Honey I'm home! I found the cutest shoes, but I smell so bad the polish is starting to peel off them..."

F'n idiots.”

“I think rails to trails programs are great. The onethat my family uses often is north of Lake Ponchartain. Yet it is paved and pancake flat and lacking scenery in many areas but hundreds of bikers and walkers use it every day. I often see people with their groceries in a basket on their bike after shopping and heading home. This seems like a not in my backyard issue. If it were the AT ruiing in your bavkyard wyou would feel the same and I'm not sure that I wouldn't either. I used to shoot across the river at an old drum that washed up in a flood. One day a developer bought the land and now trophy houses sit on that land. I was pissed as well. I'm still pro rails to trails though.”

“Interesting Lurker. I wish that were the case here. Look at the link above, and you will see that the closest that this will pass to anything with camping is at Turkey Run. The park entrance is still about 3 miles from the trail.”

“Interesting Bateaudriver. How far from a major urban area were these bikers sighted?”

“I lived for a few months on the B&O route in DC, Falls Church if I recall correctly. It was an incredible resource, I am sure many thousands of people use it daily. I'm on periphery of another project in its infancy in AZ, it will be absolutely awesome if this one can come together, tremendous potential. I agree with the statements that some portions of some trails probably aren't all that scenic, but it's better than nothing, and no program is going to be 100% awesome. Overall I am a big supporter of the idea.

Re: the statmenet that the land was "stolen" from the landowners. Can't buy that, in very few places were rails laid without some form of legal authorization, either from the Federal Government before the underlying land was settled, or via easements or fee purchase from the then-owner.”

“I live in a northern suburb of Detroit, nearly devoid of sidewalks, both along major roads and the residential areas. What sidewalks we do have aren't really connected to other sidewalks. So, in order to jog a few miles or ride my bike or take the dogs for a walk, I will almost always be walking where cars are driving.

Unless...I go to the rail-trail which is just a couple miles away. There, I have many, many miles of trail I can run, bike or whatever. And, in the winter, I can xc-ski, too. It's not a wilderness experience, by any means. But, it runs through mostly residential areas so there are tons of trees, flowers, marshes, herons (my particular rail-trail runs right by a heron rookery), deer, and lots of other local flora and fauna.

That rail-trail is busy, year round. It's filled w/ singles, couples, families, etc. It's a very nice way for a group of people, especially those with children, to hike together and not worry about traffic coming from either direction.

As RL mentioned, it also connects a handful of local nature trails. I've run the 2.5 mile hilly nature trail, then run the rail-trail the couple miles to a trail at the nature sanctuary and back.

And, it's a nice way to commute. I haven't done it often, but on a few occasions I've rode my bike the two miles from my house to the trail then was able to hit a few different towns. If I had more reasons to hit those towns, I would do it more often. I do know other people who have used it for the same thing, in order to avoid using a car.

So, I am a big fan of the Rails-to-Trails program and will continue to support the idea.”

“Sounds like the biggest advantage is in urban areas and it makes perfect sense. There are better places to ride/hike in rural areas and, hence, rails to trails just don't get the use. I want my train back, dammit, lol.”

“Nimblefoot, I see what you are saying, but sometimes rural farming areas have the fewest hiking possibilities.

Large forested areas often have state and federal forests or private forest reserve land.

But in farming areas the land is mostly private and inaccessible. And these areas lack the population needed to fund and maintain large hiking and nature parks/preserves.

So, a rail trail is the perfect answer. It allows public access to the wide open views, but the total cost of the land is fairly low.

But these things are most successful with local support.”

“BTW, I would love to see a program in which farmers get a tax break for opening their farm paths to the public.

It would be something like the forest reserve program or the hunting access program here in Michigan.

Of course, it would have to be voluntary. It wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.”

“We'll go quite a ways to ride a rail trail with our 3 yo if we think it has some scenic value, something we've done many times from Rhode Island to Iowa. They've definitely promoted small ice cream shops' business. Vandals typically don't like being caught so using the trail to vandalize neighbors is counter-intuitive. I have noticed in some parts of Northern PA the real estate agents are more likely to tell you exactly how far the place is to a rail trail than what kind of heat it has. One problem I have with "rails to roads" is that (as someone working on developing a footpath extension on a countywide scale) many people think all trails are rail trails now because that's what gets the publicity. That's especially become a problem in dealing with some bureaucracies. The KTA has taken to calling old fashioned trails "footpaths".”

“Most of you are stating my very point.... in urban, and suburban areas rail-trails are great, but they have IMHO extended it too far from the city, and are now just intruding upon farmers open pastures.”

“I, personally, love the rail trails. I run on one every other day. It’s nice to be able to run some distance, and not have to worry about traffic, uneven pavement, or even dogs. Every time I’m out on one, I see lots of other people out for exercise or relaxation. Folks are friendlier, almost everyone says hi. I've met new friends.
I can rollerblade on several of ours. I don’t skate outside much (because I run) but our speed skating team practices regularly. I don’t know any other place outside that would be smooth and safe enough for that. I occasionally ride my bike there; it’s nice to be able to get up to speed for some distance without stopping all of the time.
But the biggest thing in their favor, IMO, is that, unlike hiking trails, they actually serve some transportation purpose. A person can get to the grocery store or something like that without getting out on the streets. Here in Michigan, pedestrians or cyclists are not really allowed the rights out on the streets they deserve.
I can ride from my house to the nearest beach on rail trail. It’s through mostly rural land, but it’s a lot shorter than taking the roads.

I have a limited amount of money I spend on subscriptions and memberships. I let several of my hiking advocate group memberships expire so that I could support the rails-to trails conservancy and the greenways initiative. Simply put, I think it will benefit our world more.

Also, IMO, the trespassing and property value issues are mostly overblown. On our R/Ts anywhere a property owner was concerned about trespassing, a nice fence was put in. If you look at a realtor’s magazine, being close to a r/t is touted as a selling advantage, and I think it really is. If I were house shopping, that would be one of the things I’d be looking for.”

“And again, I see it as an advantage if you were with in 10 miles or so of the city, a state park, other trail intersections etc. but this is not the case. I'm curious, how far is it from your house to this beach, and how often do you ride there le Subtil?”

“But, that is the case with me, I live in a pretty rural area.
The beach is 15 miles and through 2 small-ish towns by road, ot 8.4 miles by rail-trail. I might ride there 4 or 5 times in the summer. My kids use it for that a lot more - maybe weekly - or at least they did before they started driving (btw - we felt much better letting them ride there on the r/t than we would have on the streets.

Our r/t goes 30 miles, all very rural except for the one end in town. It still gets used, and is usefull. Another unpaved section goes almost all the way accross the state.

I just don't see any downside.”

“We have Rails to Trails sort of near where I live...although I've never used it. It looks pretty neat, although it goes right along the interstate for a few miles. I can think of several other places I'd rather ride besides a few feet away from the interstate...as in practically anywhere!”

“Even ON the interstate? lol”

“Yeah you wish!! ;-) Okay maybe not there...LOL.”

“It is reasuring to hear that it is getting used at that distance. Perhaps this one won't be a total waste then. I don't know. I still don't want it in my back yard though.”

“We have a local rail trail called the Kiwanis Trail.

What I like is that the businesses have started to cater to trail users.

There's even a church that encourages users to come in for the toilet facilities.

It's very nice of them and I suppose a few people might start going there because of it.

Rail Trails help bring people closer to God, or at least the porcelin god.

So, I guess it's decided, rail trails are best in rural areas.”

“Did you mean urban?”

“This means we can't shoot here any more - meangreen

Ah, poor baby. Don't be such a self-absorbed NIMBY a**hole.

I don't understand how it is even interesting. arrow straight, and flat as a pancake. Scenery?

Lots of people like pastoral scenery. Again, only thinking of yourself.

Do they seriously think that one or two steel posts set in the pavement on the trail will stop these types of vehicles from getting onto the trail at any and all road crossings? I know it wouldn't have stopped me at 16 or 17 from doing any of the things mentioned - meangreen

Yeah, I believe it, judging from your attitude. It's worked remarkably well on the Katy Trail. There's very few instances of motorized vehicles on the trails.

I know of no one who would actually pedal 20+ miles each way to work on a daily basis. - meangreen

Damn you're ignorant. There are many people who commute using some segments on the Katy trail. I know of a person who purposely bought a house off the trail so he could commute the 12 miles from Rocheport to Boonville on his bike.

in urban, and suburban areas rail-trails are great, but they have IMHO extended it too far from the city, and are now just intruding upon farmers open pastures.

What a crock. People will flock to the rural parts - a lot of people like feeling they're miles from anywhere.

Meangreen - it's obvious to me you're just self-interested and bitter about change. Grow up.”

“I am self interested. It's my property! And I AM the most bitter motherf*#ker you will never meet. If somebody was F'ing up property that had been private to you for generations you would be self interested too.

"so he could commute the 12 miles"

I said 20+ each way. What grade did you stop your edjamacation at?

Did you even bother to look at the area I am talking about? I even put a nice link to it. That means you take the little pointy thing and move it across the screen till you get to the word written all funny like, then you click that little button under your finger there. Give it a second. There, now you can see where I'm referencing (Oh sorry, big word) what i's a talkin bout.”

“Well, it's certainly amusing that at 26 you're still an intellectual and emotional adolescent. Good luck with that.

I do hope your property isn't violated, but I have to admit, I'm laughing my a$$ off at your "plight". It's always good to see a retarded NIMBY get kicked in the nuts!”

“You know, I wont argue that I'm a NIMBY. That's why I live in the f'n sticks to start with. But atleast I'm mature enough to talk about an issue with out stooping to a bunch of posts that are nothing more than name calling. Who needs to grow up?”