Can you oppose the war and support the T roops

“He called you a hick. you should kick his butt.”

“Right as always Phagrus!”

“What does it mean to "support the troops" anyway?

Are you gonna put a magnet on your car?

Are you gonna listen to patriotic country songs?

For the most part, "supporting the troops" is a political term and doesn't really mean anything.

I'll give you an example. A few years back, Ohio National Guard members were promised a certain amount of college financial aid if they signed up. They signed up, but the money ran out and the promised benefits were never given.

The country supported the war, but in that case it was opposed to the troops.

And it's been pretty clear that we are undermanned in Iraq. So, we have troops fighting a war without the means to win it.

But Americans don't support an increase in troop levels. We don't support a draft. We don't even support spending more money on the effort. And we didn't support these things when the polls were massively in favor of the war.

So, Americans were fine with sending the troops there, but - for the most part - we bought flag magnets and opposed the troops.”

“LOL..times they have a changed. I remember stories of the greatest hero of World War I, a man named Alvin York. After returning to the United States was asked to be a spokesman for a number of companies. His reply,"Uncle Sam's Uniform is not for sale."

Today it is like a hooker looking for another trick.”

“The fact that someone would have to ask what supporting the troops means shows that times sure have changed.”

“LOL, kinda like the politicians who glom on to emergency services people during awards and commendations and then make negative comments about the laziness and waste the rest of the year...duplicity...kinda a second sense for a liberal”

“LOL...but I am sure he supports the troops, much like he did in 1971.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,226490,00.html”

“my parents didnt always agree with what i did and often told me so, in a very loud and clear manner. but i never once felt like i didnt have their support.

if you cant dissent, our founding fathers lose”

“I have no problem with dissent...but you know crash, even the North Vietnamese said that comments like Kerry's before the Senate (which we learned were made up for shock effect) helped bolster they attacks.

We have been over this before, you felt angry about my comments...sorry, but I have seen the effect of the Liberal Media in foreign countries. Additionally the mainstream media does not produce ONE piece of good news. You know I hope when we finish this war we can see the demise of these major medias (we are seeing NY Times et al dropping readership).

My Dream is for advertising to be given away on the major media evening news spots.”

“OH COME ON,,,MarkO i have listed ad infitum the evidence we had found WMD's this is a silly liberal playbook charge. You are better than this.

Want to know what Guts in opposition is? Check out Jeannete Rankin”

“people will always say "support our troops" with the implication that if you voice opposition to the war, youre not supporting the troops. of course, hardly anyone wants to be seen as not supporting them. thats called emotional blackmail. but when it comes down to it, the "support our troops" magnet-toting crowd cant come out and say they are against dissent, either.

one of the "good old-fashioned values" is to do what you believe is the right thing even if everyone else is telling you otherwise. the soldiers are fcking grown-ups. if theyre not mature enough to handle shutting out the bickering back home, they dont belong in the military. personally, if it was me in that foxhole, all the naysayers back home would just bolster my resolve to do my job better and prove them wrong.”

“now, having said all that, i do have a problem with this:

"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq"

kerrys an ass for saying it. that defineitely undermines morale and i think he should apologize for the remark
last edited: 10/31/06 4:04:53 PM”

“The silence from Pelosi, Reid, and the TT loony lefties has been deafening today, hasn't it?”

“the soldiers are fcking grown-ups. if theyre not mature enough to handle shutting out the bickering back home, they dont belong in the military. personally, if it was me in that foxhole, all the naysayers back home would just bolster my resolve to do my job better and prove them wrong.

You have completely missed the points. By undermining mission it undermines the troops value resulting in an early retreat (aka - tet offensive). The other point is that by overplaying the victories of the terrorists, and downplaying the victories of the American soldiers, you are doing EXACTLY what the terrorists want - to look victorious over the Americans. This sends us right back to the first point.

This is not about the troops "feeling good". It's about helping them WIN as opposed to helping them DIE by boosting the recruiting success and morale of the enemy -- and about preventing the past deaths to have been in vain due to an early retreat.”

““OH COME ON,,,MarkO i have listed ad infitum the evidence we had found WMD's this is a silly liberal playbook charge. You are better than this.

Want to know what Guts in opposition is? Check out Jeannete Rankin”
Xl400236
3:22:01 PM
10/31/06

Even Bush knows better than to make that claim. They found pathetic remnant crumbs of WMD, nothing serious or viable. Weird that you should repeat that canard.”

“We haven't found Osama. Does that mean he never existed?”

“the fact that we're bickering about this constantly boosts the terrorists' morale.

and while those may not have been your points, those are points i have heard or read made before”

“the fact that we're bickering about this constantly boosts the terrorists' morale.

If the right stopped, would the left stop undermining the war? I doubt it, and that is the problem afterall. All we're saying is "stop".

and while those may not have been your points, those are points i have heard or read made before

I've heard that we never landed on the moon, but I'm not going to seriously entertain that argument.”

“hit the submit button before i was done
last edited: 10/31/06 10:08:28 PM”

“ All we're saying is "stop"

shut up, be happy, then, eh? thank you sir, may i have another?

screw that. youre making baby george washington cry”

“I didn't say "shut up". I said "stop", meaning "stop undermining the war effort".”

“i know what you meant.”

“You've all brought out a very important point. The whole world can read this bickering and laugh at the 'great ugly american' in all of us.”

“youre right, sb. if i dont uncheck fuego, the muterroristslimes win”

“Well according to MarkO the death of a hundred thousand or so Americans from WMD's is crumbs....K.

The truth is (as I have referenced herein) comments contrary to the war effort by our media and politicians are support for the enemy. THe North Vietnamese admitted to it. Granted that is just HISTORY to libbies. But then libbies can change history as they see fit.

With all the thought control going into your opposition to food additives..and their long term dangers it amazes one when we see Americans really dying, from the Direct Effect of your complicity with the enemy, that there is not transfer of logic...

Then we pull out the FEELOMETER and here is how it translates.

Control (BY MOMMY GOVERNMENT) of citizens choices is good, support of the opposition party President is BAD.”

“So let me get this straight on sKerry. He wasn't calling troops dumb for lack of education but, rather he was saying that Bush who never saw the inside of a school unless it was a private one and then went on to graduate from Yale dumb and uneducated?

Yeah, we're just stupid enough to buy that. If a conservative said anything like this they would call for him to resign.”

“MarkO...yeah and President Gore or is it Kerry knew that too.....(LOL).

The really funny part will be either

A. Libbies win and now have to contend with the "Surrender in Iraq/Abandon the Troops", "Impeach the President", "Amnesty for Illegals" Bunch. Which they realize will piss off 70% of the American voters. Or not doing that and having the 30% of the fringe that is their party go bananas.

B. The Libbies...LOSE..OH MY GOD, that would be a horror. If they lose how do they explain it? I mean other than the usual "IDIOT VOTERS" line”

“XL, you're really in a frenzy as the election approaches.

Isn't there a right-wing fascist pig board where you can go.

We're backpackers here.”

“We're backpackers here? Huh, could have fooled me. Check this link and see all the great backpacking threads.

http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/index.php?title=bush&age=9999”

“

MarkO approves of this message.”

“Oh stop it, ya little scamp!!

How many sons do you have, GreasSpot??”

“MarkO..you know Halloween ended yesterday?


Isn't there a right-wing fascist pig board where you can go.

You know when a suspect uses the "you abusin me. Or You Rodney Kinging me." Line I see that as I AM WINNING...so thanks for the love. Its frightening isn't it. This is almost (GOD I LOVE THIS) like the middle of Wacht Am Rhein...if you don't win..it is over.”

“You're talking nonsense.......again, er......as usual”

“White House-and Dems-want Kerry apology

By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - A few Democratic candidates joined Republicans Wednesday in pressing John Kerry to apologize for a comment critics said appeared disrespectful of U.S. troops as several Kerry campaign appearances were canceled.

"Whatever the intent, Senator Kerry was wrong to say what he said," said Democratic Rep. Harold Ford, running for Senate in Tennessee.

"Sen. Kerry's remarks were poorly worded and just plain stupid," said Montana Senate President Jon Tester, a Democrat trying to unseat GOP Sen. Conrad Burns. "He owes our troops and their families an apology."

"I'm sorry he did what he did. But I think the issue ... we want to make sure it doesn't confuse the subject of the war in Iraq," Democratic Rep. Ben Cardin, running for Senate in Maryland, said on CNN.

The White House didn't back down from its call for a Kerry apology. White House press secretary Tony Snow said Kerry "put gasoline on the fire" of an already sizzling midterm election campaign. And the Republican National Committee released a Web ad, to be e-mailed to GOP activists and state party officials, called "Apologize."

"Sen. Kerry may have botched the line, but what he said was insulting to the troops, and what he ought to say is, 'Look, I botched the line, but I'm sorry for giving offense,' " Snow said on CBS's "The Early Show."

At issue is Kerry's comment, to a group of California students on Monday, that people unable to succeed in the U.S. educational system would likely "get stuck in Iraq." Kerry says he merely botched a speech line written to be critical of Bush, while Republicans seized on it as evidence of troop-bashing by the Democratic party's 2004 presidential nominee.

The backdrop for the fiery exchange evoked memories of Bush and Kerry's bitter 2004 race for the White House, and injected last-minute fireworks into a taut midterm election fight between Republicans trying to cling to control of Congress and Democrats striving to win it back.

With each party looking for any advantage in a race expected to turn in large measure on the unpopular war in Iraq, Kerry campaign appearances in Iowa, Minnesota and Pennsylvania were canceled.

A spokesman for Democratic congressional candidate Bruce Braley in Iowa said Braley had decided independently to cancel an event with Kerry scheduled for Thursday. Braley, who is running against Republican Mike Whalen, said in a statement that the White House and Kerry should stop bickering and focus on how to change course in Iraq.

Meredith Salsbery, a spokeswoman for congressional candidate Tim Walz, said Kerry made the final decision but acknowledged campaign officials were worried that the controversy would distract from his effort to unseat incumbent Republican Rep. Gil Gutknecht (news, bio, voting record).

Kerry spokesman David Wade confirmed he no longer would appear at a Philadelphia rally on Wednesday for Democratic gubernatorial candidate Bob Casey.

"We made a decision not to allow the Republican hate machine to use Democratic candidates as proxies in their distorted spin war," Wade said.

Kerry, meanwhile, sought frantically to contain the damage — to his party in next week's elections and his own potential repeat run for the White House in 2008. He and some Democrats viewed the fracas as a key test of a lesson learned in the 2004 race — that he responded too slowly when hit with unsubstantiated allegations about his Vietnam war record from a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

Kerry's office released a supportive statement from retired Lt. Gen. Claudia J. Kennedy, the first female three-star general in the Army and a supporter of his 2004 bid against Bush. "When it comes to Iraq, he's right to stand up against baseless attacks, and right to keep fighting for a better course for our troops and our country," she said.

Sen. Chuck Schumer of New York, head of the Democratic campaign effort, called the White House attacks on Kerry an effort by Bush "to divert attention from his failed Iraq policy."

"Instead of going on television attacking John Kerry and everyone else under the sun, the president ought to be sitting at his desk coming up with a plan for Iraq," Schumer said.

The head of the Democratic party also downplayed Kerry's remarks. "Kerry made a blooper. Bloopers happen", Howard Dean told reporters in Burlington, Vt.

Snow said Kerry — not the White House — was the one who "whipped this up into a big issue."

Bush, campaigning in Georgia Tuesday night, said Kerry's statement was "insulting and it is shameful" hours after Snow unleashed a harsh attack on the Massachusetts senator.

Kerry told a hastily arranged news conference in Seattle: "I apologize to no one for my criticism of the president and of his broken policy."

But he also said the comment was "a botched joke about the president and the president's people, not about the troops ... and they know that's what I was talking about."

What Kerry said Monday at a campaign rally was this: "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq."

A Kerry spokeswoman, Amy Brundage, said later that the senator's prepared text had called for him to say: "Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."

Sen. John McCain said Wednesday he wasn't sure "how you could construe" Kerry's comment as a joke. Calling Kerry "my friend," the Arizona Republican said, "I've found that if it is just a botched joke then apologize and move on."

"As it stands, he owes an apology to the men and women who are serving in Iraq out of patriotism and love of country, not because of any academic deficiencies," McCain said on ABC's "Good Morning America."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061101/ap_on_go_pr_wh/white_house_kerry”

“Together, we have helped raise millions of dollars for Democratic candidates, including: Akaka $21,000+ Brown $197,000+ Byrd $160,000+ Cantwell $275,000+ Cardin $75,000+ Casey $586,000+ Feinstein $53,000+ Ford $302,000+ Klobuchar $115,000+ Lamont $28,000+ McCaskill $281,000+ Menendez $188,000+ Nelson $261,000+ Pederson $103,000+ Stabenow $47,000+ Tester $74,000+ Webb $345,000+ Whitehouse $62,000+ Ballenger $28,000+ Boswell $32,000+ Brown $24,000+ Burner $27,000+ Carney $66,000+ Derby $18,000+ Duckworth $209,000+ Fawcett $25,000+ Kilroy $32,000+ Klein $35,000+ Lampson $83,000+ Massa $44,000+ Mitchell $31,000+ Murphy, L $64,000+ Murphy, P $126,000+ Perlmutter $22,000+ Sestak $128,000+ Stender $11,000+ Walz $25,000+ Weaver $28,000+

http://www.johnkerry.com

*********************************************

Very nice list of fellow Dems that think our troops are stupid too.
I find it so funny that the ones in Bold gladly took Kerry's money and are now turning 'against' him. LMAO Typical Dem values.
Please VOTE these clowns out!”

“IMUS TO KERRY: 'Please stop it. Stop talking. Go home, get on the bike'...”

“Just asking the question, and not suggestion anything or making judgements;

Is it not true that the majority of the soldiers are less educated than the general population?
Isn't it true that some portion of soldiers enlist because they have few other educational options?
I thought I'd seen this message right in recruitment advertising.”

“How could I have missed Casey $586,000+? ;-)

I glad that Kerry spoke up with the Dems TRUE feelings about our troops.....
and these are the 'leaders' that want to be in charge of these troops.
VOTE Repub!”

““Just asking the question, and not suggestion anything or making judgements;

Is it not true that the majority of the soldiers are less educated than the general population?
Isn't it true that some portion of soldiers enlist because they have few other educational options?
I thought I'd seen this message right in recruitment advertising.”

I went and did some looking. I found an article on About.com that states you can not even get into the military without a high school education. GEDs do count but you have to score from 15-30 points higher than the minimum points on the ASVAB tests to get in. Even then the max they can recruit from GED holders is 1/2 percent in the AF to 10-15%.

So even your Joe Blow high school drop out must score higher than the diploma holders.

Military service was once held as an honor and a source of pride for a family. Many who serve are there because they want to serve the country. I have even seen a story about a businessman who is a millionaire who is serving.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/genjoin/a/asvabminimum.htm”

“I served in the Air Cavalry. Our unit was primarily ground scouts, 19D. We're talking hardcore grunts. We went in before the Marines, and trained like it. We were dished a lot of crap in training and exercises, but the scouts asked for MORE. Nothing was too tough.

Most of these guys had at least some college education, and were going back to finish. None of these guys were dumb. They had the most hardcore of jobs, but weren't as Kerry categorized them.

If they couldn't hack it in school, they never would have hacked it out there. Scouting isn't as simple as going on "hikes" to enemy territory. You have to master many skills under much pressure - something a high-school flop cannot do.

Kerry is clueless when it comes to the military.”

“Military service was once held as an honor and a source of pride for a family. Many who serve are there because they want to serve the country. - Nigal

The libbies can't understand that, Nigal.
Their deep seated fundamental belief is that Military service is contemptible and only for red state hicks (to use a name MarkO likes).

Of course most are smart enough to know stating this in public is political suicide.
That's why I'm so glad dumba$$ Kerry made the Dem's feelings about our troops crystal clear.”

“Thanks for the civil answer, Nigal.
Now that you mention it I do recall reading how the standards have been raised over the years.
And, I agree totally, what JK said was just plain dumb. And then to roll over and apologize without a defense. And, this seems typical of the Ds. That's exactly why I can't vote D even though the Rs have done so much I disagree with.”

“The fact remains that many if not the vast majority are recruited with the idea that they can get educational opportunities not normally available to them because of their economic status.
The military has been a step stone to higher education for decades.

Our president is trying to make political hay out of Kerry's comments at a time when his party's popularity and job approval are at record lows for any president and his party in recent history.

Its election time......

Back on thread topic:
I just spoke to a staff member whose son was killed at age 22 in Iraq about 2.5 years ago.
He was a Marine sniper killed by an enemy sniper.

She has been opposed to the war from the very beginning as I have and she respected her son's wishes to join and his eagerness to be involved.
This kid believed that he was making a positive difference in the world.
She supported him in every way possible when he was deployed.
I would feel the same way for any of my sons who wished to be involved though I am relieved that none of them want to.

There has been an awful lot of nasty and shamefully hateful talk about decent citizens who are opposed to this war.

To say that one "cannot oppose the war and support the troops" is so far from decent that those of you who say so should be ashamed.

We didn't talk about the war or her son but about her bid for a seat in the state legislature.
She is not a lawyer or a business person but a citizen who is concerned with state and local issues like education, health care, public tranportation and the environment.
This woman wants to work in the interest of our community.”

“John Kerry Gives Demos Botched Campaign
U.S./ Politics/Elections

The Democratic Party is the political equivalent of the Keystone Cops, or the gang that couldn’t shoot straight. In football terms, the GOP has presented them with the ball on the one yard line and instead of pushing it in, they run the wrong way.

The Democrats are an amazingly incompetent group of politicians, always presenting to the American people the most liberal and extreme members who do not represent mainstream American values. The latest gaffe involves idiotic U.S. Senator John Kerry (D-MA) who supposedly misspoke at a rally in California and instead of criticizing the President of the United States, criticized the brave men and women of the military. He told a student rally in California that they would get “stuck in Iraq” if they didn’t study hard. A political firestorm soon erupted and Kerry later claimed that it was a “botched” joke about Bush. Regardless, it was heard by U.S. troops as an insult and Kerry should have done the respectful thing and immediately apologized. Instead, he went on the attack and claimed he learned the lessons of 2004 by responding to criticism vigorously.

Sadly for Kerry, he is as clueless as ever. He played the 2004 campaign the wrong way and he played this incident the wrong way as well. Unfortunately for Democrats, the Kerry episode is a distraction and will serve to stop Democratic momentum and help energize the GOP base voters. Republicans can now take the high road of supporting U.S. troops and lauding them while blasting their opponents, whose 2004 presidential nominee made an insulting and ill-considered remark, whether it was botched or not.

In 2004, Kerry lost the presidential race because he was the wrong candidate at the wrong time. The right Democrat could have beaten Bush in 2000 and 2004; however, Democrats continue to nominate liberal losers like Al Gore and John Kerry, both relics of a bygone era and representing the most radical face of the Democratic Party. By inserting himself into the news now, Kerry is just reminding Americans about the last campaign, one in which the Democrats lost as Republicans painted them as weak on battling terror, pro tax increases and out of step with mainstream American values. Kerry is the perfect representation of the elite northeastern Senator who is more liberal than the average American. He is also pure and simple a political fool and he showed it once again yesterday. He could have handled the situation with class, but instead he handled it like a stark raving maniac.

Democrats need to lock up John Kerry for the next week. Today he is canceling political appearances around the country and going back to Washington D.C. He is the last person who should be campaigning for Democratic candidates. For one, he is a loser, who is also pretty reckless in his comments and has very little political skill. He reminds Americans once more that the Democratic Party is left of the country and shows why the Democratic Party cannot take advantage of so many GOP opportunities, because they are ill-equipped. The Democrats are represented by relics, people like Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry and Howard Dean. The Democrats desperately need new leaders who will energize the American people and represent their values more accurately. The Republicans have made mistakes, but to capitalize, the Democrats need to have the right leadership. John Kerry is not the right type of leadership and if the Democrats don’t realize their mistake, their gains in this mid-term election will be muted and their chances of finally re-taking the White House in 2008 will be slim to none.


Jeff Crouere is a native of New Orleans, LA and he is the host of a Louisiana based program, “Ringside Politics,” which airs at 8:30 p.m. Fri. and 10:00 p.m. Sun. on WLAE-TV 32, a PBS station, and Noon till 2 p.m. weekdays on several Louisiana radio stations.



http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=8722”

“Hey StoveStomper, what was your M.O.S.??”

“MarkO - The same could be said of those who support the enemy with their talk. The soldier's parents who DO support the war have children who die also, sometimes directly because of the MSMs propaganda. Nothing the right is saying is killing the children of those who don't support the war who are there anyways of their own free will. Things the left is saying is killing the children of those who do and don't support the war who are their of their own free will.

If you have a problem with mommies crying, maybe you should stop supporting the terrorist propaganda.”

“I am really p.o.ed at the Libertarian Party there is SOOOOO much they could do to attract the disinfranchied Reagan Democrats and true Conservative Republicans (no, not the Moral Majority which was neither). Its like NO one wants the job.

One thing I get hit with a lot is the "How come the house got so damaged?" after a fire.
I recently got grilled about a fire (by a county "leader") at a house. It was a house off the main roads, the fire occurred due to substandard wiring (installed by the owner) and it occurred at 2 in the morning. No one was home, and in fact the fire was called in by a neighbor who saw the flames shooting out the front window.

Because of the spread of the heat and fire we had to ventilate (i.e. CUT A HOLE) in the roof. The County official felt that was unnecesary. He also more or less accused the department of falsfying our response report.

I had to speak as to origin, cause and fire spread. I also got grilled about what else we could have done. The final question was,"What else could have been done to limit the damage?'

I thought a minute and said,"Well if the wiring had been performed by a qualified electrician that would have gone a long way." I then went on to explain that when we get a call it is already a lost cause. No matter how much water we spray we aren't going to turn the Black back to its original color.

The sad thing was this wanna be politician just about accuses me of lying, then as we walk out of the meeting he turns to the media and starts complimenting us on the job we do.”