Can you oppose the war and support the T roops

“History time all you bright eyed "Wanna be 60s kiddies" It may sound good to say "I dislike the killing and what not but I Still support the troops. But it ain't so. It is patently feel good. It allows you to feel like the flower children of the 1960's (you know the crap we see on TV) but still feel theoretically patriotic.

So lets turn to history. How did it really turn out in Vietnam when the heroic Jane Fonda's and John (I have a hat) Kerrys did their thing....


Source: Quynh Dao, a member of the Australian-Vietnam Human Rights Committee

The Australian, 29 apr 05

MANY myths and half-truths about the Vietnam War whipped up by the communist propaganda machine have been allowed to persist unchecked in discourse about Iraq. Today, on the eve of the 30th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, perhaps some lessons can be learned from this painful chapter in history.

A point of view held by the anti-Vietnam War movement in the 1960s and still taken as fact by some people today is that the Vietnam War was a civil war, not one fomented or directed by the communist north, which, in turn, was being instructed by China.

With that belief, the anti-Vietnam War movement denounced US involvement in Vietnam as an act of interference. The Vietnamese Communist Party's official biography on leader Ho Chi Minh and the Chinese Communist Party confirms that the communists in the north received instruction from China and were supported by the rest of the communist bloc with aid to foment the war and to spread Marxist-Leninist ideology.

The Vietnam War should thus be seen, rightly, as a fight to preserve freedom and democracy by the people of South Vietnam against communist invasion.

The anti-war movement supported the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam (the Vietcong) portrayed by communist sympathisers in the West as independent from Hanoi. Party documents now reveal it was a product of the north.

As such, members of the anti-Vietnam War movement let themselves be deceived by the communists. Some influential people in the West, wittingly or not, abetted the communists in their deception.

Novelist Graham Greene wrote The Quiet American in 1955 in which he denounced the US and South Vietnam as engaged in acts of terrorism against the Vietnamese people. He could not provide any verifiable detail about one such alleged incident which he asserted was true.

At the time Greene wrote, thousands of people in the north were slaughtered in the so-called land-reform campaign initiated by Ho Chi Minh under the directives of Chinese advisers. Greene was happy to ignore that campaign.

Noam Chomsky, the leading anti-war intellectual, vowed "to speak the truth and to expose lies" as a reason for his pro-Vietnamese communist stand. As he made this passionate avowal, North Vietnamese poet Nguyen Chi Thien was imprisoned for doing just that, writing the truth about the communists. Nguyen was imprisoned for 27 years.

The Western media turned what was a military success on the part of the non-communist forces in the south to a political victory for the communists. The Tet Offensive of 1968 was an unmitigated disaster for Hanoi. Yet it was pictures of US carnage that were publicised to a war-weary audience.

The media also relayed ad nauseam the picture of a South Vietnamese soldier shooting a Vietcong, in civilian clothing. The message was loud and clear -- this is the kind of atrocity that the South Vietnamese army did to their own people, with the backing of the US. The Western media did not report the massacre of 4000 unarmed civil servants and civilians in the city of Hue, committed by the communists.

Nguyen Ngoc Loan, the South Vietnamese officer in the picture, passed away in 1998. Neil Davis, the Australian war correspondent killed on assignment in Thailand, set out the background to the killing when interviewed for David Bradbury's 1980 documentary Frontline. The Vietcong shot by Loan had, not long before this picture was taken, led a team of communist terrorists who killed the family of a South Vietnamese officer, including his 80-year-old mother, his wife and his children. How often is his background explained?

Following their victory in 1975, the communists, hailed as liberators by their sympathisers, put more than 1million people in concentration camps, appropriated property, nationalised all means of production, evicted people from their homes and stripped people of their savings. Before the end of the war, South Vietnam was at par with other developing countries in the region. Now, after 30 years of "liberation", Vietnam ranks with the poorest and most corrupt countries in the world.

After 30 years of peace, intellectuals, artists, Buddhist monks, Catholic priests, tribal people, even communist war heroes, are subject to arrest, torture, harassment and imprisonment for peacefully demanding freedom and democracy.

What is occurring in Vietnam sparks protests from human rights organisations around the world. Amid all of these voices of protest, the deadening silence from the anti-war camp is telling. Those who supported the communists still refuse to see the stark evidence.

It was the pressure from the anti-war elite that forced the US administration to pull troops out of Vietnam. The hasty US retreat made South Vietnam prey to a ruthless enemy still fat with Soviet largesse and left behind it a trail of indescribable human suffering culminating in the boat people tragedy.

Are we going to let this happen to Iraq? Troop withdrawal should be a process that happens gradually to allow the precious new democracy in Iraq time to build up its national security and strengthen its governing institutions in the face of fundamentalist savagery.

Building a democracy is a long process. While 80 million Vietnamese people are now doomed in slavery, the chances for the Iraqi people to live in a society that respects freedom and is based on the rule of law is within reach.
http://www.kmike.com/Vietcong.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So I knew this in 1980, why didn't the rest of the world know it?

Well maybe they did not spend 4 years in college with a young man who grew up in South Vietnam, watched his father fight valiantly with US Special Forces Troops then watched as the North Vietnamese came South, watched as the liberators raped and murdered his family (LOL they um also killed the sympathizers) an was lucky enough to get out before he was caught.”

“The world according to XL.

Actually the Anti-Vietnam War movement started in October 1945.

U.S. seamen protested the use of U.S. troop ships to transport foreign(French, with many former Nazi SS troopers in that number)troops to attack a country that had assisted the U.S. in its war against Japan.

A lot of hell was raised in the Spring of 1954 when the French were on the verge of giving up and Vice President Richard Milhous Nixon issued a public statement saying that, "...U.S. troops might have to be sent to fight because the Vietnamese were not fit to govern themselves..."

From the link below:
In 1952, with the support of his father's political machine, Kennedy won a seat in the Senate. Containing the Communists abroad became a focus of his career. Kennedy, who had toured Asia as a Congressman and witnessed colonial oppression firsthand, believed that offering young nations freedom and development aid could stop the spread of communism.

When Senator Kennedy addressed his colleagues on that day in April, 1954, he delivered an eloquent plea for American support of self-determination in Indochina. "No amount of American military assistance," he said "can conquer an enemy which is everywhere and at the same time nowhere," he warned.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/35_kennedy/printable.html
last edited: 10/12/06 9:34:53 AM”

“He was right. They will not be conquored. They will (are), on the other hand, be detered.”

“Thank you I hope that will help assuage the thought of MILLIONS dying at the hand of the Communists. LOL...God you remind me of the stories of the Citizens of the Towns around the Concentration Camps who said they "didn't know what was going on".

Stay ignorant, look for any way out.”

“Crap, moonglo.

Jack was correct.
If Indochina has recieved help instead of death from abroad things could have been much different.

But then again, Wall Street would have been disappointed.
War is a gravy train.....a racket.
Thirty years of pouring human lives and money down a rat hole created lots of millionaires.”

“Anyone notice the Deficit is down 22% or so?

Wow so the tax cuts and business growth must not work.”

“marko - if you disagree with something I've said, just say it - instead of whining about nothing.”

“"....was being instructed by China."

That's a crock of #&%!$.
The Viets fought a border war with China in '79(?) and have been tradintional enemies for hundreds of years.

"MILLIONS dying at the hand of the Communists."
True enough, but......

Let's not forget the millions in Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos who died at the hands of Johnson/Nixon/Kissinger, or was that slaughter of civilians somehow justified?
Did those rural Laotians who died in their beds from B-52 night strikes have to die because they might have been communists?”

“LOL...thats right if you fight on the same side you will never have a border war (LOL)....oh God that is rich MarkO.

And I like the way you rationalize the genocide of the Communists. LOL...so you think the fact that we bombed the German Cities and Japanese Cities in 1940s makes our soldiers as bad as say the Nazis and Japanese Soldiers...LOL..>Good rationalization.”

“War was declared on Germany and Japan, ya dodo.

I am not rationalizing any sort of genocide, YOU ARE.

I feel as though all GENOCIDE SHOULD BE CONDEMNED......get it??”

“They will (are), on the other hand, be detered.”
moonglo
10:32:43 AM
10/12/06

THAT is the crap.
There, how's that, whiner?”

“So we've been attacked on American soil by the terrorists recently? Really?”

“Please explain Genocide and when it should be stopped. If we must destroy a nation to defeat it in war (Granted the last time we meant it was World War II) is that Genocide.

If a nation or group declares that they intend to destroy us is it correct to go to war or do we have to wait until a percentage of our nation has been killed to decide they really mean it?

Finally Germany never attacked us...or Italy for that matter. Heck the only reason I can figure Italy was in the Axis powers was that...well We had France. But still we invaded Italy, heck we invaded France, Belgium, Luxembourg man we even invaded North Africa, (what the heck did they do to us?)

I guess you are getting angry becuase you see your logic is so flawed...or maybe it is the thought of those small children being "Reeducated in South East Asia" after the Glorius LiberalSocialist movement won the Vietnam War.”

““So we've been attacked on American soil by the terrorists recently? Really?”
moonglo
7:54:48 AM

And you can accurately attribute this to American foreign policy, rather than some common-sense thing like increased national security or national awareness?

Do you have some special insight that the rest of the republican party doesn't? Because if they could prove that, there'd be no more debate.”

“Republicans say that all the time. Maybe if you watched something other than Katie Couric you'd know that.”

“phaedrus - In case you didn't notice - Many attacks on American soil *since* the war have been thwarted - And, many threats by AlQ have been made but NONE have come to fruition.

But yeah, maybe you're right.”

“We can run the list of attacks (EXTREMELY COSTLY) on Non Military targets (would that fall into Genocide there MarkO) before the Invasion of Iraq....Now I know our military troops are in harms way in Iraq...but have we been attacked anywhere else?

Granted I know this is redundant...but I still want an answer on the question , "How many countries need to be attacked before it is a WORLD WAR?" Does France have to surrender and then we can declare it a World War?”

“Does France have to surrender and then we can declare it a World War?

LOL!

France and England are literally under attack (physically). I don't know why this doesn't make the news .... ok, yes I do - SNAFU.”

“LOL the same reason Youtube put the hilarious Clinton/North Korea video on controlled access....Censorship only exists in the Libsocialist world. ....LOL...God George Orwell was so accurate.”

“you can oppose the war and support the troops.

can you hate a government and love it's people? even a government of the people? a democracy? sure you can. by participating in a democracy you accept the fact that you won't be 100% fully represented by the actions of the whole (i.e. you won't get everything you want all the time but will get some of the things you want some of the time.)”

“The answer is 'maybe'.
The bulk of the far left is so eat up with BDS, the answer for them is 'no'.”

“For once I agree with Jimmy san.

The problem is if you really accept it, or allow it to manifest to the point where you are either on purpose or inadvertantly putting the lives of American troops at risk.”

“a lot of far right/left wingers think (if you can call it thinking) that if you don't want all the things they want all of the time that you are either a fascist or a moron or both. there is a total lack of respect for the right of an individual to participate in a democracy in the context of anything other than that of a lemming.”

“I'm a right winger Jimmy san, and I have NO problem with the left wingers participating.

What I have a problem with is the way they try to circumvent the nicely laid out methodology developed by our founding fathers. The name calling, they lying, the
MSM infiltration, the obnoxious protests (not protests in general, just the way they do it) - all out of line. That is my problem, as a winger.”

“Personally I don’t give two shlts who supports our troops and how or why. I support them 100% but at the same time I do recognize the mistakes we have made in this war.”

“Eat it, winger.”

“Hey XL, ya blood-thirsty bastard!!

Whew, I just walked back from Katmandu!!
Its a long way to Katmandu...........................Kitchen.
They have a dynamite lunch buffet for 7.95 American.

XL, all (well, most) of what you have cited is moslty true though it dose have a conservofascist bent to it.

This, for instance, is quite true.
After 30 years of peace, intellectuals, artists, Buddhist monks, Catholic priests, tribal people, even communist war heroes, are subject to arrest, torture, harassment and imprisonment for peacefully demanding freedom and democracy.

If they had only listened to Jack the incidents desribed in the above paragraph could have been avoided.
The U.S. Government, not the American people, drove the Vietnamese right into the arms of communism.
The struggle, played out all over the colonial world, was about ending the "white man's" exploitation of Asians, Africans and Latin Americans, etc.
It was #&%!$heads like Dulles and Truman and others in between who caused this mess with STUPID and ARROGANT foreign policy.
Foreign policy was driven by the wants of the commercial interests in those colonies.

Jack was right.
In 1952, with the support of his father's political machine, Kennedy won a seat in the Senate. Containing the Communists abroad became a focus of his career. Kennedy, who had toured Asia as a Congressman and witnessed colonial oppression firsthand, believed that offering young nations freedom and development aid could stop the spread of communism.

That article fails to mention colonial oppression.
last edited: 10/12/06 11:26:43 AM”

“Yeah, that worked well for North Korea.”

“Hey XL!!

(sorry to keep pickin' on ya, pal!)

You might actually appreciate this, if it doesn't make your head XpLode!

In the summer of 1976 I was working on a swimming pool in Burke, Virginia and me and the boys went to a nearby shopping center in search of lunch.
I spotted my dear old Dad's bread truck at the curb and, "hey, let's go say hi to my dad!"
He was delivering to a Chinese restaurant there and he introduced us to the man who ran the joint.
The boys and I shook hands and said "hello" like nice boys.

My dad tells us that Mr. Loan was former police chief of Saigon and it dawned on me...........that's the guy in the photo!
Wow....oh well.....not thrilled but let's let bygones be bygones.
After all he was doing his job, nasty as it may be.

Now you can kiss me.
last edited: 10/12/06 11:46:20 AM”

“This guy?

”

“Yup, Ole Turtlehead hisself!

That very hand.

Creepy,
But life goes on and this old world will keep on turnin'.”

“that picture has always given me the chills”

“the video is readily available also”

“Who knows, maybe the guy had it coming to him? lol?

I remeber seeing the film clip on pbs when I was a kid. It shocked the hell out of me. It was the first time I'd ever seen someone actually get killed.”

“I've seen the film on TV........creepy.

That whole chain of events was put in motion by a stupid decision in 1945.”

“ahhh ... now it all makes sense

The decision to stop communism from spreading is what led to that "creepy" scene on t.v. - so those on the left want to thwart all attempts to prevent that from happening again. Anybody trying to prevent communism or socialism from entering our country are immediately dismissed as somebody who can't remember history. Interesting.”

“yeah, i have seen the video too, of course. the scary thing is that in the scope of atrocities both past and present you know it's not even close to pegging the horrible meter.”

“The U.S. government made it about communism.

They could have done the smart thing like Kennedy said and actually helped the Vietnamese gain independence.
Instead they helped the French resist it and the rest is history.

In '45 the Indonesians started their struggle for independence as well.
The Dutch, who had their foot on the neck of the Indonesians for over 300 years, tried to make it about communism but there wasn't much of a communist movement there. The British were involved there too.

Those struggles were for naught.
The petroleum is still flowing from Indonesia(that's what Japan wanted in 1942)and Vietnam is still one of the world's largest producers of natural rubber and the number two exporter of rice after Thailand.

Brutal colonial rule is what led to communism just as brutal feudalistic(is that a word) control in Russia and China did.

Read some history, Sarge.
last edited: 10/12/06 12:42:28 PM”

“I don't believe in the justifying of communism as you do.

Personal responsibility. Read up on it.”

“Coming from a man who won't even take personal responsibility for his own views and seeks to hide in anonymity.
last edited: 10/12/06 12:47:28 PM”

“I saw that it was you posting, Y2, on the main board, and I bet myself $100 you wouldn't be posting substance, but instead personal insults.

I won!

I'm only anonymous from those I don't trust.”

“"I don't believe in the justifying of communism as you do."

That's stinkin' lie, moon.

There's a big difference between pointing out reasons for something and justifying it.

You have earned your place on Buddha Bear's Axis Of Idiots list.”

“How dare I point out the hypocracy of a man lecturing others on personal responsibility when he won't even take responsibility for his own views.
You can shut me up just by being willing to stand up for your beliefs rather than hiding in the shadows.
last edited: 10/12/06 12:59:50 PM”

“So if you weren't justifying it - then why did you mention it? (honest question - help an idiot MarkO - try to do it without your standard personal insults if you can)”

“How am I insulting you by asking you to stand up for your views 'moonglo'?”

“How dare I point out the hypocracy of a man lecturing others on personal responsibility when he won't even take responsibility for his own views.

Are you the net nanny? You're not even American. I do take full responsibility for my own views.

You can shut me up just by being willing to stand up for your beliefs rather than hiding in the shadows.

What are you even talking about? More than anybody on this board I stand by my beliefs. Who does more than me? You've got to be kidding. I've been ridiculed for doing too much of standing by my beliefs, and all of a sudden you think I'm doing the opposite? Still not used to the gravity on this side of the planet I take it.”

““"I don't believe in the justifying of communism as you do."

There is your insult, azzhole.
I merely answered it.”

“Oh, the comment that came after "read some history, sarge"? That one? Is that the one you were "merely answering"?

Got it.

You still didn't explain it.”

“You stand up for your views to such an extent that you hide on an internet chat forum?”

“Personal responsibility is apparently best served by threatening people on the internet.

You're a riot, Sarge.”