Organic food

“Yes but we can all agree that cotton candy comes from heaven. Agreed?”

“and circus peanuts are another "food" that can not be organic in any sense of the word.”

“Yeah le Subtil, I'm giving cans of Crisco to some of my favorites.

Lyra, you are absolutely correct(arguement is futile.....kinda like The Borg)”

“Nigal, I will slap you silly!! ;-D

Well, I plugged scientific benefits organic into Google, and this was the first thing that turned up:
http://www.planorganic.com/organic%20attack.htm

They really hide that info well! heehee, jokes.

So what do you think about buying local vs. buying food from across the world, if you're not convinced that pollution is bad when it comes to organics? I try to buy food that's both reasonably local as well as organic...but I feel guilty about contributing to the air pollution still, because ain't too much growing up here in Vermont, LOL! There aren't too many fruits that are local, for instance. If I have a choice between local/conventional or organic, I try to figure out which would have produced less pollution to grow/transport, and if the produce has a thick skin or otherwise wouldn't cause me to ingest too much pesticide. You can imagine that a trip to the grocery store with me is a real day of fun, hahaha!!”

“He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. - I see no mention of steriods and pesticides here??????”

“lyra - Since it's been a while since I researched this, I just did some more. The most scientific of studies I've found come from Tufts University. It supports my view. In face, the bacteria levels are found to be much higher on the organics, and that is what is proven to kill people quickly. The pesticides are not know to cause premature death in people.

I'd love to see scientific peer reviewed studies proving otherwise. I'm sure that is out there somewhere.

Thanks in advance.”

“lyra - I went to your link - Pick one. The ones I looked at don't answer our question. Does an organic diet provide health benefits?

These article talk about crop yields and sustainability, etc.

Can you be specific with what we're talking about?”

“for example, here is a conclusion from one of the studies:

This landmark study shows organic produce has much less pesticide residues than conventional food.


LOL! That's almost a joke! No kidding! That does NOT mean it is more healthy than the conventional food.”

“Link for Tufts research?”

“http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22tufts+university%22+organic

bm - they've done a lot of research, so you'll need to look through more than just one source. They've also analyzed and participated in other studies done on a worldwide scale in many countries.”

“Jimmy San is a silly libbie!”

“BM- I'd like to point out too that most of the studies which conclude "health benefits" to organic foods only really show that there is more pesticide ingested. They don't take into consideration whether that negatively affects health and lifespan as balanced with other benefits of conventional farming. The point being reading the "titles" or "conclusions" of studies have to be taken into context of what they are studying.

As an analogy, drinking chlorinated city water puts more chlorine in your body. Too much chlorine can kill you. But, in lower quantities, it not only doesn't kill you, but it kills other things that can kill you. Understand? So it's silly to conclude that because children who drink city water are being polluted by poisonous toxins just because they have more chlorine in their systems. capiche?”

“Here is a perfect example of a misleading conclusion.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=32375

They conclude: "Organic foods protect children from the toxins in pesticides, while foods grown using modern, intensive agricultural techniques contain fewer nutrients and minerals than they did 60 years ago, according to two new scientific studies."

First off, the 2 things are not related.

Secondly, more pesticides does not necessarily equate to poorer health (see my previous post).

Third, nutrients may be lower in conventional farmed food over the last 60 years, but that says nothing about the nutritional value change of organic food from 60 years ago. For all we know, organic food is worse off, or at best, in the same boat as conventional foods.

Very misleading. Very deceptive.”

“I'm sorry. I can't find:


In face, the bacteria levels are found to be much higher on the organics, and that is what is proven to kill people quickly.

The paper on your link says:

“We just don’t know,” said Merrigan, PhD, assistant professor at the Friedman School of Nutrition Science and Policy at Tufts University. “With both organic food sales and organic acreage increasing, research has to keep pace. Currently, there’s little published research that shows how the safety of organic foods compares to the safety of conventional foods.” To address that gap, the First World Congress on Organic Food convened recently and called on organics expert Merrigan.

“The new research frontier is determining whether there are health and nutritional benefits of organic foods,” said Merrigan. “For the most part, the US government has not funded organic research. In 1997, the Organic Farming Research Foundation undertook an analysis of all USDA funded research and found that less than one tenth of one percent was spent on research directly pertinent to organic agriculture.”

Merrigan says it comes as no surprise that there has been little research comparing organic to conventionally grown food despite the strong consumer demand for this kind of information. At the First World Congress on Organic Food, Merrigan reviewed recent studies that found organic food to have fewer pesticide residues, higher levels of omega 3 fatty acids, and higher levels of some secondary plant metabolites that may play a role in cancer prevention. “This research is not conclusive,” she advised, “but tantalizing.” She called for a comprehensive set of credible, peer-reviewed scientific studies to highlight the organic “difference.”

OK. The links between smoking and cancer were once "tantalizing". So believe what you want, I guess.

IMO, to believe chemical/processed food is better for you or as safe as the stuff we have been eating for millenia is not the way to go.

And safety/healthy isn't the only point of Organics. Pollution/sustainability may be as important.”

“BM - I'm pretty sure there was more than one article in my link.”

“As to what kind of benefits, your earlier post on this thread (assuming that's you) is "There is no benefit to organics." I'm arguing for all sorts of benefits, not just personal health...animal welfare, environmental, etc. Is your argument really that there aren't any benefits whatsoever?

Yeah, that first link wasn't a good one...it's hard to get full scientific studies off the internet, it seems like you have to pay most of the time. These links refers to some studies, but don't contain the whole studies themselves:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=10587

[url]http://www.soilassociation.org/web/sa/saweb.nsf/848d689047cb466780256a6b00298980
/026180ac27c270d880256f5700566a70!OpenDocument[/url]”

“Yes. There was also an Organic Chemistry paper. LOL!

My wife has an MS in ag, food, environment from Tufts. I'll go with her current research that concludes "Organics Good, Convential Bad".

Enjoy!”

“BM - Fine. Go ahead. I'd just like to see some of that proof too. Sorry it's too much to ask.”

“I understand.”

“


CAFO's are breeding grounds for disease. Is this healthy?

Current Avian flu and pathogenic E. coli originated in CAFO's. So did vCJD. We keep playing Russian Roulette we will lose.”

“one word: spinach”

“irrigation runoff from CAFO's

search irrigation runoff E. coli and maybe throw in CAFO for fun

Gotta go.
last edited: 11/01/06 2:33:37 PM”

“organic food is one of the deadliest human creations to infest our great nation since the birth of John Kerry”

“This says they figured out that the e. coli contaminated spinach wasn't organic:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-ecoli29sep29,1,62428.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california&ctrack=1&cset=true”

“You realize you're arguing science with a guy who doesn't believe in evolution.”

“y2 - nobody has argued "science" yet. I'm still waiting on that scientific peer-reviewed study that shows people who eat organic food are healthier than people who eat non-organic food. I wish somebody were arguing science with me.”

“Well you're not going to get that are you.

a) the organic food business is in its infancy
b) if it were easily provable then no one would be eating foods covered in pesticides.
c) for years people thought there was no harm in smoking - it took many many years to find out otherwise.
d) typically this is a ver slow process involving the build-up of chemicals in the body. You many need to wait 20-years or more to find out the results of a new chemical pesticide introduced today.
e) Humans have "evolved" or even "existed" for most of their time on earth eating foods not growing using hormones, steriods and madn-made pesticides
f) some just feel organic food tastes better
g) some take the view that it's better not to risk putting these chemicals in their body rather than finding out in 20-years time that they've been slowly killing themselves.
h) some feel that a natural way of life is better for them, and at the very least following this lifestyle can lead to an imporved sense of wellbeing.

Overall I think the comparison with smoking is a good one - we're just further down the line with that one.
last edited: 11/01/06 2:58:20 PM”

“so what you're saying is you don't know - there is no proof it's better for you

I agree with that assessment.”

“but there will never be enough 'scientific' proof to satisfy someone who thinks that evolution is a big lie and that global warming is a huge scientific conspiracy in collusion with socialists who hate freedom and would like to see America brought to its knees?”

“Y2, you just wrapped it up!

Let's meet in D.C. for a drink with Bearmagnet and whomever.”

“I sound a little flippant, but its a serious question.

I figure you associate organic food as a wacko leftist thing implying that huge agro-businesses are hurting those that eat the food.

By advocating that organic food might be better for you it would be condemning the high-intensity farming methods that the market has developed over the past 100 or more years - this could lead some to think you're a socialist. ;op
last edited: 11/01/06 3:15:19 PM”

“good plan MarkO!”

“Immigration runoff? I only use orgasmic fuel in my scooter and grow carrots in hydroponic plastic beads. Piece of pie out.”

“Tufts University? Isn't there an hemorrhoid pad called that?”

““Obviously you've never had a twinkie”
bearmagnet

LOLOLOLOL. That was very funny.




OK. The links between smoking and cancer were once "tantalizing"
Bearmagnet


Well that is just another fine logical mess you’ve got us into, bearmagent. Nyuk…nyuk…nyuk…

1. The links between smoking and cancer were once "tantalizing".
2. The links between smoking and cancer have been shown.
3. Therefore saying these links are "tantalizing" causes me to believe in the links between organic food and higher levels of omega 3 fatty acids, and higher levels of some secondary plant metabolites that may play a role in cancer prevention.


Bearmagnet, once again, your logic is a wonder to behold.

Spontaneous Generation was once a "tantalizing" theory.




"Overall I think the comparison with smoking is a good one - we're just further down the line with that one.”
Y2


Well of course you do, Y2. Once again, your open-minded beliefs are not surprising because they never change.

Overall I think the comparison with spontaneous generation is a good one - we're just further down the line with that one.




Why are y’all worried? We’re spending billions of dollars for the FDA to protect us.

WHAT… US WORRY?”

“y2

I figure you associate organic food as a wacko leftist thing implying that huge agro-businesses are hurting those that eat the food.

Nice display of your logic, or lack thereof. Nothing I have said indicates that. It is simply a product of your bias and name-calling mentality.

I have simply asked for a scientific study. The result: your panties in a bunch. I didn't think it would be that difficult for something that has been "proven scientifically".”

“Very good points, Y2! Z-snap!

Just because there isn't scientific proof to back something up, moonglo, that doesn't mean you can't know it. If you've experienced better health with organics, then why would you wait around until somebody proves that you really did? That's like waiting around for a scientific study to prove that breathing air is good for you, and suffocating in the process.

And if you're agreeing that there's a dearth of studies on organics because it's such a young industry, then how would you possibly be able to "prove" your case, stated as "There is no benefit to organics"?

And for the record, I'm not arguing with you as such, since we all know that's pointless...I'm just stating my point of view in case anyone reading is thinking of trying to go organic.”

“lyra, did you even read my posts???

Just because there isn't scientific proof to back something up, moonglo, that doesn't mean you can't know it. If you've experienced better health with organics, then why would you wait around until somebody proves that you really did?

I already agreed with all that.

If you're here just to argue, please just say so. I am simply asking for proof. If you don't have any, fine! Don't get all defensive.

Funny how when the right asks the left to educate them with facts, they get defensive.”

“That's true, I do have quite a reputation around here for arguing with people just for the hell of it.”

“regardless of your reputation - you're arguing things with me that I did not disagree with - and, in fact agreed with early on in this thread”

“I think Sarge and lyra should just do it and clear the air of all this sexual tension.”

“I'm just trying to figure out why she's so defensive.

For the record, and I don't mean any disrespect, but women who eat all organic have smelly farts, and that is just too much of a turn off. Although, I am sure Lyra is a beautiful lady.
last edited: 11/01/06 4:03:45 PM”

“Arclite in left-wing bias conspiracy claims shocker!
last edited: 11/01/06 4:10:03 PM”

“mullgoonflob, you are different.”

“I never really took the time to contemplate lyra's farts and the quality thereof...




This will give me something to do next time I'm stuck on a buss.”

“Just like you arc, moonbat is here not to debate or hear the other side, but attempt only to refute and spout your bias. I call it bias b/c you seem to have a mission to refute the Organic side. It's prejudiced and seems, IMHO, based on some irrational fear.

I try, for some reason, to give my POV and you pop in with your feeble attempts at insults.

Is that not a definition of Troll?

I'm out of here but one last piece of "bearmag logic": H5N1 evolved in CAFO cows b/c they were fed a grain diet. look it up


Enjoy.
last edited: 11/01/06 4:20:43 PM”

“Just like you arc, moonbat is here not to debate or hear the other side, but attempt only to refute and spout your bias.

bearmagnet - Wow, I even came right out and asked for information FROM "the other side", and you say I'm not here to hear the other side? What have you said that would make anyone think you want to hear the other side. I actually have been on this thread expending a lot of energy trying very very hard to hear facts that I THOUGHT the "other side" had. It wasn't until "the other side" wasted all my time and FINALLY said they didn't have any that I stopped trying to get the information. This would have gone a lot smoother if WHEN I ASKED FOR INFORMATION FROM "THE OTHER SIDE", "the other side" would have simply said, "you know dude, I don't have any, just going on gut instinct here."

I have spent a lot of time discussing organic food with a friend of mine. To say I don't want to hear "the other side" is just your over active combative imagination.”

“I call it bias b/c you seem to have a mission to refute the Organic side. It's prejudiced and seems, IMHO, based on some irrational fear. - BM

Could it be based on facts? Obviously your viewpoint is not, so what is it based on? You seem to be here with a mission to refute the conventional side. It's prejudiced and seems, IMHO, based on some irrational fear.”

“I find it interesting that out extremist friends on the right here see this as some sort of threat rather than an expression of personal choice influencing a free marketplace.”

“y2 - again, did you even read my posts???

“I'm not the one asking for proof! I already know for myself that it is beneficial.”
lyra
1:31:47 PM
11/01/06
ignore this user
“that's great lyra - nobody is telling you to stop

the point is that according to the science I have seen in the past while researching this, it contradicts your conclusion. I'm not saying it's not beneficial to you, but statistically speaking, it's benefits are not statistically significant. that's an important thing to note, don't you think?”
moonglo
1:35:14 PM
11/01/06

I'll await your very non-American John-Kerryesque apology now ...
last edited: 11/01/06 5:03:11 PM”