Organic food

“On another thread, Organic foods have come under fire, so I decided to post some relevent data here.

In regard to the assertion that the Organic market is weakening: USDA market evaluation for 2005

In regard to what the labeling standards and requirements are for Organic growers: ASDA Organics FAQ

For a list of the actual NOP requirements to be an organic food producer: National Organic Program standards

For me, the national requirement for a single standard for products labeled as organic means that a consumer has the power to choose food that was produced in a fashion he understands and accepts. Business is free to grow food conventionally, with all the newest chemicals and GE seeds if it would like to, and people are free to buy that if they're interested.

Personally, I look at those people as the canaries in my coal mine.

:)”

“organic foods are usually tastier

thats really all im concerned with”

“I agree Phaed. More choice equals more freedom. I do think the genetically modified foods and grains have a place, specifically feeding the maximum people for the minimum acreage in 3rd world countries.”

“Some Pesticides and Herbicides have been linked with ADHD and PDD in children, I think the less chemicals we consume the better.”

“My family and neighbors think that a switch to 'organic gardening' means I do not care to grow much. Truth is, Americans are patterned to a 'quick fix'. If a plot of deteriorated land is reclaimed for farming, it might take a few years to build up the soil to generate optimum yields if organic procedures are employed. Big yields can possibly be achieved the first year with chemical fertilizer but this results in a further deterioration of the soil and eventually to much lower or no yields.

The truth is, wheat yields of 50 bushels per are unnatural (pumped up with unsustainable amounts of chemical fertilizer, the equivalent of steroids), yields of 15 to 20 bushels per acre is much more realistic, same goes for most other crops.

Organic farming or gardening properly conducted will allow the greatest sustainable yield over the long term.

Most all farming will once again be organic soon and I will bet huge amounts of food scraps will no longer be taken to landfills (that may sound like a minor point, the food scraps thing, but it really is a major point, being a key indicator of how Americans view nutrient cycles).

Some say 'Organic farming cannot feed 6 billion people'. Well, neither can the intensive use of fertilizer and pesticides and mining of fossil water after the next few years when the fuel for the chemical fertilizers and pesticides, as well as the fossil water, are pretty well depleted.
last edited: 10/14/06 7:56:22 AM”

“When nitrogen/phosphorous/potassium only with to much water are added to dead soils big yields of 'unwhole' crops can result.

This is analogous to fast foods. To much salt/sugar/fat makes the consumer initially feel satisfied but leads to deteriorating health.

Ultimately, more people can eat and eat better with organic procedures, but not the current 6+ billion or the 9 billion soon expected at the dining table.

They say 'organic' is the choice of the elite and the wealthy.

Organic is also the only option available to most of the world's poorest people who attempt to grow their own.
last edited: 10/14/06 8:07:54 AM”

“all food is organic

inorganic items are generally not considered food”

“Would you prefer ,'natural gardening'? Organic is a bit misleading.”

“marketing tries to change our perception of food so we will either purchase more of it or pay a premium price. the label "organic" on foods is an attempt at the latter in my opinion. i have nothing wrong with foods grown without the use of pesticides, etc. i grew up on the stuff from a family garden.”

“How'd I miss this? :D

Organic is not misleading, IMO. It means no artificial or inorganics used in the farming process. And Organic farming is hella expensive. Getting certified alone costs @$5,000. But there are other costs.

In Maryland, for example, the soil has to be free of all chemicals. So, for instance, an Organic farmer can not use treated wood for fencing due to leaching. And of course no pesticides. So they either use untreated wood or a special metal type of fencing. Either option is more expensive.

The farmers I know loose half their crops to pests. Loosing half your fruits and berries to bugs is damn costly. Many also only grow in season. I'm not sure, offhand, what a Farmer in the North can grow in Winter but it taint much.

Slaughtering is also way more expensive for an Organic farmer. It's not easy finding a slaughterhouse that will take on organic & humane slaughtering. Because they also slaughter non-organic animals, they have to sterilize all equipment and take one animal in at a time. Therefore, they charge the organic farmer more.

That's what you pay for when you buy Organics.”

“all food is organic.

if it was inorganic you would not want to eat it.”

“Obviously you've never had a twinkie”

“there is no benefit to organics”

“right again, s-rge! organic farming is a commie-libbie plot to help the terrorists. organic farmers hate america!”

“actually I learned that on a liberal media news program - Dateline or one of those shows.”

““there is no benefit to organics”
fullmoonglob
6:46:57 AM
11/01/06

Tell that to my father on Thanksgiving. He has celiac disease, allergic to wheat products. We have to buy fresh killed organic turkey on Thanksgiving, because the process of freezing a turkey involves injecting the bird with wheat-based agent. If he eats a regular “non-organic” turkey it can result in destroying his liver and digestive organs.
last edited: 11/01/06 10:25:34 AM”

“good job lumberzac - you found an exception where somebody is allergic.

Can we use the allergy excuse for other things too, like if you're allergic to the sun we shouldn't use solar power? Get real dude.

now ... back to the great debate over the allergenic benefits of organic food ...”

“turkey is organic. wheat is organic.”

“are steroids organic? pesticides?”

“you said "organ"

hehehuhuh”

“I limit my food intake to things that are biodegradeable.”

““there is no benefit to organics”
fullmoonglob

I can see a benefit in keeping steroids,
antibiotics, and hormones out of the food chain.
I can see a benefit in keeping pesticides and herbicides out of the food chain and the water table.
But, that's just me.

That said, a lot of the things I read say a greater threat to the enviroment is the transportation and distribution of our food. Meaning, for example, eating oranges flown in from South Africa is a bigger burden on our planet than eating an apple grown down the road at a local orchard.

Buy locally!”

“moonglo, you stated that there was no benefit to organic farming. I gave an example where there was one. By no means am I saying that all farms should be organic, but there are situations where there is a market for them that more “industrialized” farms are inadequate.”

“steroids are organic. some pesticides are organic.”

“semantics...

But they're not allowed in food labeled "organic", correct?”

“semantics...

exactly”

“some steriods are organic”

“Right with you le. Buying local trumps Organics shipped halfway round the World Or even cross country.”

“ster·oid (stîr'oid', stĕr'-)
n.
Any of numerous naturally occurring or synthetic fat-soluble organic compounds having as a basis 17 carbon atoms arranged in four rings and including the sterols and bile acids, adrenal and sex hormones, certain natural drugs such as digitalis compounds, and the precursors of certain vitamins.”

“But they're not allowed in food labeled "organic", correct?””

“The term "organic" when applied to food in this manner refers to the growing/farming methods...synthetic pesticides/fertilizers (containing metals) aren't used. Even mainstream dictionaries include this definition of organic: http://m-w.com/dictionary/organic (see 3a).

Why does it matter what we call it, anyway, if we all know what we're talking about?”

“Even if the term "organic food" seems redundant on the surface, the metals artificially introduced to the foods in the conventional farming process leach into the food, so that the food then contains the metals, and we ingest them. So couldn't we say the foods themselves aren't even 100% organic anymore (using the scientific, more conventional definition)? Granted, science wasn't my best subject...LOL!
last edited: 11/01/06 11:38:34 AM”

“I think I said that lyra. Some seem to just be looking for a fight.”

“Well bearmagnet, let's just ponder what will happen if people who don't care about the health or environmental benefits of organic farming don't eat organic food...hmmm. heehee!! I mean too bad for the earth and all the rest of us, but eventually we'll be left with a master race of smarter people like us.
;-D”

“Okay that was mean, I'm 99% kidding.”

“No you're not...........you're mean as #&%!$!!

>8^@”

“Great point, Lyra.
I'm think I'll stop off at McDonalds after work and buy a few gift certificates for my favorite TT'ers.”

“lumberzac - you are correct”

“i think it's good that people be informed and have choices, but the term "organic" is a marketing term to justify selling a product at a premium and nothing more... not necessarily food either. it's an old marketing trick. if you want to make more money divide your product up into "basic", "enhanced", and "premium" ("original", "gold", "titanium"... etc, etc, etc) so you can target your customers better and charge them more. it's not about your health to these frankenfood pushers, it's about making money and capturing market share.”

“Well at least I have some company, MarkO (ahem, le Subtil)! ;-D”

“How many local small organic farmers do you know, jimmy?

I explained some reasons on how organic farming is more expensive. And to add to that, they are very concerned about sustainability and offering healthy food. These farms are way more labor intensive then non-organics. And basically, you have no idea what you're talking about.
last edited: 11/01/06 12:02:00 PM”

“where is the scientific peer reviewed PROOF that an organic food lifestyle is beneficial over a non-organic food lifestyle?

why aren't you scientists pipeing (sp?) up on this?”

“If you've ever gone from eating conventionally farmed goods to all-organic and felt better, there's your benefit...one of many. Why do you assume the burden of proof is on organic farming, and not conventional? The more drastic measures are taken by conventional farming, by far.

If you're really interested and not just trying to criticize something you don't understand, you should research it, try it, and visit organic farms. The best way to find out about something is to do it yourself.”

“lyra - what makes you think that I (or others) haven't either (a) tried it, and/or (b) researched it.

If I hadn't researched this topic, I personally wouldn't be discussing it. I'd be reading the thread, that's it.

So right back atcha. Why haven't you researched it?”

“I know I always feel much better after a five gallon bucket of trans fats. Does that count?”

“I'm not the one asking for proof! I already know for myself that it is beneficial.”

“that's great lyra - nobody is telling you to stop

the point is that according to the science I have seen in the past while researching this, it contradicts your conclusion. I'm not saying it's not beneficial to you, but statistically speaking, it's benefits are not statistically significant. that's an important thing to note, don't you think?”

“oh i am just talkin' #&%!$. sorry. gawsh, it's a fuego thread.”

“It's strange that we've both "researched" the same thing, seen opposite statistics, and come to opposite conclusions! So no, I don't think it's important to note that organic farming isn't significantly beneficial, because I believe the opposite.

If you personally have come to the conclusion that dumping a bunch of toxic chemicals into not only your own body but into the soil, water, and bodies of animals that don't have anything to do with it is a better choice, then too bad for everyone. It's more than just a personal decision, it affects the entire planet.”

“It's not so strange. There are a lot of biased sources out there. that's why I asked to see something showing scientific results proving the opposite of what I found.

can anybody help me out here without going round and round about why we shouldn't look for more scientific proof?”