Freedom Watch

“If there were really enough restaurants that didn't allow smoking to make everyone happy, then why would the so many people have voted for the smoking ban? Personally I hate smoking, but I have to admit that the ideal situation would probably be some restaurants/bars allowing it, and some not (mostly not, haha!), so that everyone could choose. I think the main problem is that since people didn't know for so long how bad smoking is, and since smoking has "always" been allowed in all restaurants, it seems normal and like a god-given right to be able light up whenever you feel like it.

Smoking around people who don't want to breathe it is incredibly rude and inconsiderate in my opinion, and before non-smoking places came about, there was nothing people who didn't like it could do about it except not go out. I think it's kind of like affirmative action...unfairness in one direction has been going on so long that people now want to allow unfairness in the other direction to even it out. I personally like the idea of smokers being treated with the same disregard that they used to treat non-smokers with! And plus, there are kids to consider, who don't have any say one way or another whether they're taken in to smoking, or non-smoking establishments.

Maybe if we have a ban on smoking for awhile, it'll have a balancing effect, and eventually no one will think it's strange for most restaurant owners to choose on their own to go non-smoking. Maybe the number of non-smoking restaurants will actually reflect the number of non-smoking people.”

“lyra, stop making sense!”

“If there were really enough restaurants that didn't allow smoking to make everyone happy, then why would the so many people have voted for the smoking ban?

Because people don't want limited choice. They want it all.”

“Lyra, it's not about weather smoking is right/wrong, or healthy/unhealthy. It's weather or not the government has the right to limit people's freedoms and rights of property.

If you allow a freedom you do not care about to be taken today it could be a freedom you DO care about that is being taken away tomorrow.”

“Lyra...it gets worse...in some areas they are starting to tell people they cannot smoke even outdoors. I am sorry but if tobbacco is SO DANG DEADLY (and I am not arguing it isn't) why not OUTLAW IT totally? OH that's right, it provides millions in taxes every year.”

“Thanks crash, I do have occasional, inexplicable moments of clarity.
;-D”

“and before non-smoking places came about, there was nothing people who didn't like it could do about it except not go out.

False. They could open up a smoke-free business.


... ka-ching!

If you really had a problem w/ it, you could be rich by now instead of griping about it.”

“Well, I tend to look at these sorts of things in terms of economics. Helmet requirement? Sure. Keeps my health care costs down in an era where they are already spiraling out of control. Seat belt requirement? Sure. Keeps my insurance costs down. Smoking ban so that less people contract cancer passively? I'm all for it. Sure, the restaurant owner get told what he can and can't do in his establishment. Guess what. It's a restaurant. He already has the govt. (local, state and federal) in there making sure he meets health standards on his food preparation. All kinds of permits and requirements. Just add no smoking to the list. It really shouldn't be a shocker. I think most of the griping is coming from bar owners who what to keep their daily alcoholics happy. Guess what. In CA those bar flys just step outside the front door or sit on a heated patio.
last edited: 12/07/06 12:26:45 PM”

“Guess what. In CA those bar flys just step outside the front door or sit on a heated patio.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban#Outdoor_smoking_bans”

“Not in this city. Davis has some crazy ban but then, that is not a sane town.”

“OK, so lets look at your reasoning Rosey and change it just a bit.

“Well, I tend to look at these sorts of things in terms of economics. Helmet requirement? Sure. Keeps my health care costs down in an era where they are already spiraling out of control. Seat belt requirement? Sure. Keeps my insurance costs down. Homosexuality ban so that less people contract AIDS? I'm all for it. Sure, the homosexual home owner get told what he can and can't do in his home. Guess what. It's a house. He already has the govt. (local, state and federal) in there making sure he meets building code standards. All kinds of codes and requirements. Just add no sodomy to the list. It really shouldn't be a shocker.

Or insert whatever you like that might be disliked by others.”

“Nigal has it dead on....the problem is that right now the ANTI SMOKING crowd has the GUN. I have found the problem is that eventually you find yourself looking down the barrel of the gun.”

“Oh come on, that is not even a close analogy. Plus, you are falling prey to an old myth that gays perpetuate AIDS. So do heteros, junkies, etc.

But for sake of argument, let's go with the parallel you are trying to draw between a private homeowner and a restaurant owner. NOT THE SAME. The restuarant is MAKING MONEY by feeding people. When you are a legal, money making operation, you are subject to greater requirements. Don't like them? Find a new business.
last edited: 12/07/06 12:58:25 PM”

“Homosexuality ban so that less people contract AIDS?

how about just a buttfcking ban? i wouldnt oppose that”

“For those who feel as I about population, cigarettes should be free and helmets should be ban.”

“most of us will make it past our twenties thanks to a "Nanny Government".”
bearmagnet
10:36:17 AM
12/07/06


Tell me you're kidding.”

“Oh and Hey Lyra, how you doing?? Rawr!!
last edited: 12/07/06 2:16:17 PM”

“For those who feel as I about population, cigarettes should be free and helmets should be ban.”
salebored
1:01:22 PM
12/07/06

You're saying the gene pool needs some chlorine, eh? Lol.”

“can i get some freedom fries with my freedom watch?”

“I have freedom pants. Elastic in the waistband and crotch.”

“Hellooooo Stickypoo, how YOU doin'! HAHA, Sticky...I like that.

I second that emotion, CB! Freedom fries, but not fried in trans-fats, spankyouverymuch.”

“I have mixed feelings on this. Ultimately I a public smoking ban goes too far. I think there should be a balance between public health and freedom for business owners. I mean if workers can go get another job, owners can get into another line of business.

I am OK with requiring non-smoking areas for places past a certain size.

It was also great to be in a bar in New York City to hear live music and not breathe any cigarette smoke, it bothers me that customers who wanted to be able to smoke while they heard music didn't have that option and business owners didn't have the right to gratify that desire if they wanted to.”

“I am sorry but if tobacco is SO DANG DEADLY (and I am not arguing it isn't) why not OUTLAW IT totally? OH that's right, it provides millions in taxes every year.

Don't leave out that it provides B-B-B-BILLIONS in corporate income every year.”

“How about tax breaks for businesses that are smoke free, or something along those lines? I enjoy a good cigar, so it would be nice to go to a cigar bar somewhere and hear some live jazz or folk music from time to time.”

“There is, or was, a joint in D.C. called Blues Alley where I saw jazz bands back in the '70s.

In spite of lots of smoking going on the room would be virtually smoke-free.

They had "smoke eaters" hanging from the ceiling that removed the smoke and made it a pleasant experience.”

“I am a fan of Responsibility...if you want to use something...you suck up the responsibility...the problem is that there are a slew of people who want the priviledge without the Responsibility so the GUVMENT has to handle RESPONSIBILITY.”

“Like turnin' your kid over to the cops when ya don't feel like handling it yourself..........exactly!”

“most of us will make it past our twenties thanks to a "Nanny Government".”
bearmagnet
10:36:17 AM
12/07/06


Tell me you're kidding.”
StickmanWalking
3:14:27 PM
12/07/06

Course not. FDA/EPA/USDA.

Three Big nannies that mostly keep food, drugs, chemicals, safe or products banned completely.”

“No MarkO...you turn your kids into the COPS when they BREAK THE LAW (see breaking and entering is a CRIME)...and you know what...it worked!!!!

But then my children see the police as someone who will also help when they are in need. LOL...

BM..(rather ironic...)Lets not place too much pride in three of the most incompetent ineffective and moronic agencies in the Government

Under the USDA we have had major outbreaks of Ecoli and other diseases....(lack of competent inspectors or lack of care) the corrective measures have come AFTER the problem. Corrections have come when the People took action.
The EPA????PULEEEZE....these guys are good if you are a BIG target, and only slightly more effective than the Department of Education.
As for the FDA, LOL why is it people go to foriegn countries to get meds they need? the FDA has screwed up more medical discoveries with red tape than anyone. the Amazing thing is so many humans made it BEFORE the MOMMY GOVERNMENT......”

“Without those agencies, you would be without regulation. you think food poisoning motrality is bad now? Or mortality form approved drugs?

Then think about it with zero regulations. I mean, that's what we want right? the freedom to pick our poisons? You'ld have people dropping left and right from #&%!$ in food, #&%!$ drugs, pesticides from hell.

It's kind of what Nigal was saying. We want to be protected to a point but we each have a definition of when it goes too far.”

“REALLY...so bear when was it that people were dropping dead left and right? I mean I know there have been problems but you are saying with out MOMMY government the food manufacturers would intentionally try to kill their customers?????

LOL...I can see it now (fade music)
BIG FOOD PRESIDENT: Well Johnson how many customers did we kill today?
JOHNSON:Only two thousand, I am sorry.
PRESIDENT: MY GOD, tell those incomptent people I want a minimum of five thousand a day dead. ULTRA BIG FOOD took out forty five hundred yesterday alone. We will never prosper if we don't kill at least ten percent more than they do.

FADE BACK IN......

LOL RIIIGHT BM, without mommy to protect us the market would kill us all......
last edited: 12/07/06 3:41:52 PM”

““Oh come on, that is not even a close analogy. Plus, you are falling prey to an old myth that gays perpetuate AIDS. So do heteros, junkies, etc."

I was merely trying trying to show that it can and always does lead to the erosion of other rights and how the taking away of any rights can be justified to a sheepish society. If the people of Ohio were sheepish enough to fall for the lies they were fed in ads about smoking, then they would be sheepish enough to believe gays spread AIDS.

I know this can be a hard concept for someone who can't drive a car or ride a motorcycle without the government's help.”

“Yes XL. That's what I was saying. Thanks for simplifying it. You're right. We would be much safer with zero regulations.

Oy Gavult.”

“Didn't you know bear? You can ALWAYS trust private business to do the right thing...”

“New Jersey is going to follow Chicago and ban foie gras. Not just the production of it but the buying and selling also.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/10/05/ruhlman_bourdain_foie/index_np.html”

“Didn't you know bear? You can ALWAYS trust private business to do the right thing...

Just like the government?”

“that lousy government and its stinkin laws and regulations. next thing you know, a man cant rape and murder in his own home. outrageous!”

“It's quite a stretch to compare laws against violent crimes to smoking bans. If you feel comfortable making that leap, more power to you my friend.”

““Didn't you know bear? You can ALWAYS trust private business to do the right thing...

Just like the government?”

The simple fact is that the federal government fails at everything it attempts. Nearly everything the government tries to make better ends in disaster. If the federal government were say a car manufacturer we'd be paying BMW prices for a Yugo quality car.”

“well, stickman, im not making any bigger leap than those here who think that a regulation here and there leads to a soviet state”

““well, stickman, im not making any bigger leap than those here who think that a regulation here and there leads to a soviet state”

I don't remember anyone saying that. My biggest point is this; Erosion is a slow thing be it rocks in a river or our freedoms.

Question to everyone:

Have you ever known the federal or state government to strive for less regulations and restrictions and strive for MORE freedoms?”

“its called striking a balance. more freedom for one person often means less freedom for another person. more freedom for the restaurants to make their own smoking policy means less freedom for my lungs to have clean air.”

“what it boils down to is this: the restaurants stand to lose money if there is a ban, we could lose (erode) our health if there is no ban.

im taking health”

“Exactly. And guess what, if the food's good, people are gonna keep going even if they can't snmoke inside. If it's just like any other place, well, there are tons of those type places...”

“But one can't work under the assumption that they even have a right to clean air in a private establishment. In a governmental building maybe but not private.”

“I'll fight smoking bans as soon as all the states allow liquor stores to be open on Sunday. That is a serious infringement of rights, IMHO.”

“I've found the solution. The government should just issue these to every citizen.
”

“a private establishment is still a public space”

“it may be unconstitutional and it may get overturned and if it does i aint gonna flip out over it like people are flipping out about the ban.

im really playing devils advocate here, i see the points youre making, theyve all occurred to me. its not like theres one side of the argument whose points are all completely valid and the other side who has no good points. for me, its a close call, and i fall on the side of health, and i still would have even if my dad had not had lung cancer”