Think before you talk or act

“what an interesting christmas :(

I went to work today so I could get double pay. But while at work I get a phone call from a fellow employee and all she does is cry and says how she is going to kill herself.
I know she has a history of depression and drinks and has done this before but her girlfriend was home and she kept calling back.

this time she was home alone and called only that one time.
I had no number for her but only an address. so I call the police. They call back and say they can not find the apartment.
I go screaming there (made it record time I might add) only to find her not home. I learned this after I broke into her window and climb into it.

so i figured she went to the store or bar. as I was driving back to work (were I had left a newbie there alone which is a HUGE nono) I get a call from the police.

This is what happened.

she refused to open the door for them and crawled out the window and started running down the street. they caught her and had to handcuff and took her to the hospital.
he wanted me to go and talk her into getting treatment. so i agreed. I went back to the shelter and locked up (I lost two hours Of double time)

while driving home to drop off my dog and then head to the hspital the police call me back and wanted to know if I was still going.
I told him I really was not sure what they wanted me to do. I hardly knew her. I have no clue of any family or friends. other then the girlfried that was away.

he understood and told him to sit tight and see if she comes around

so here I sit christmas night waiting to see if i have to go to the hospital and help out.

when I see her I will slap the crap out of her. I am so pissed yet so upset for her.


so what would you have done?”

“I would have done what you did. You're a good person. Almost every person that succeeds in committing suicide has at least one attempt. A suicide attempt (or just the telling of the inclination) is a real cry for help.

Good girl Mapes!”

“i feel guilty for being pissed :(”

“You're the Boss. You've done great so far. And look at all the excitement on a dull day. Be happy!”

“Sorry you're going through this Mapes.

I'm actually quite surprised by the whole situation. Not how you handled it (you done good), but by how the authorities are handling it.

I used to work in a mental health facility and they worked closely with the authorities in the area. When they received a suicide call, whoever was on-call with emergency services at our facility would be the one to go and intervene. I've never heard that a person who is nearly completely unrelated to a person being requested to "talk" to someone in that state.

If they were a danger to themselves or others, they'd get "pink slipped" and sent to the hospital. End of story. From that time forward they'd be in the mental health system.”

“i am the only one that knows her. they are clueless. i can understand why they wanted me there. if only a familiar face”

“just my 2 cents... but what if you had stopped to think, then decided not to get involved and tomorrow she was found dead. I believe that would be much harder to deal with for you. You sound like a very kind person, one who puts lives before rules. I don't think you could have handled it any different then you did.”

“i was on the phone at one point talking to the police and the other line rang, i told him that i had to put him on hold and he said NO. I told him that i had to becuae it might be Patrice calling. he was like ok but make it fast

??”

“dont feel guilt for being pissed. suicide is the ultimate selfish action. people who do so are so wrapped up in how miserable they feel that they cannot see how they hurt others. if someone close to me killed their self, i would probably curse them and come damn close to not going to their funeral. somehow, she needs to come to the realization that life isnt always going to be roses, and sometimes you just have to muddle thru”

“You have a very interesting story, albeit unbelieveable. If she is contemplating or threatening suicide she will be involuntarily committed to a Mental Health facility. If she is under the influence of alcohol or drugs she will be admitted or watched until sober and the above can be done. Emergency facilities are not required to have a non family member involved in a patients care, in fact its a HIPPA violation. If she is not under the influence of alcohol or drugs and is not a threat to herself or others, the patient cannot be held against her will.
I did not use family memebers or friends to help me decide the treatment for a patient contemplating/feigning suicide.

If you slap her thats assault.

Happy Holiday!”

“A permanent solution to a temporary problem.”

“sounds to me like shes a threat to herself, and so can be held against her will”

“she was drinking heavy. i heard that in her voice after the first call early in the day

that is why i did not want to go to the hospital. i am not family. i really know nothing about her.

i guess they felt i was the only contection she had at the moment.”

“wtf is a contection? put the wine bottle down!”

“two plus two make a contection ya know!!”

“here's to giving a #&%!$ mapes. you are one of the uncommonly good ones that walks the walk.”

“too much credit given to me :(”

“I HAVE been that depressed. You truly can not see beyond the moment. You can not/do not know that things will be better or even different. It is the deepest and darkest time. You absolutely did the right thing. She has to be held for at least 72 hours against her will. Maybe she did not want to kill herself, but she DID want to die; maybe it was the only way she knew how to seek help. At least she got the help she needed. God Bless You for what you did.”

“even if she is held for 72 hours i feel like it is a bandaid. after that then what?”

“Well Mapel, I hope your New Years is a lot better than your Christmas! have fun in NY!”

“i will.
sorry for being a downer:(

I guess i am looking for answears where there are none.

it is an age old question: how do you help someone that is not ready to help themeselves

i did the right thing.

i am trying to get into the mind of a troubled person and i will never find what i am looking for there.

i am the sort of person that is not happy till i have saved the world. i know that will never happen. there is no right or wronge answear here. i did what i felt was right. right or wronge I will stand by my dicsion”

“Maple, while she is being held, they will try to get her to talk. They will try to get her to access the help she so desperately needs. I know you want to understand, so ask me. What is it you want to know?”

“What is it you want to know?”
Pamela
12:09:35 AM
12/26/06


good question.

i guess the question is how can someone get that low that they feel there is no happy ending.

guys i am a tad tipsy. please forgive me.
i want to save the helpless all the time.

i feel i am the voice of the helpless for the animals. when it comes to the humans...i have no clue

What is it you want to know?”
Pamela
12:09:35 AM
12/26/06

is there a difference between the humans and the animals??”

“In many things there is a difference of course. But yes, animals can get depressed and anxious too. Have you ever seen a dog after his master has left the house? He sits at the door for a bit and waits, he looks a little sad. Some dogs when left every day alone will tear the house up, they are acting out on their anxiety. Dogs are pack animals and should not be left alone often. Any pet when his master has died will mourn. Do they suffer the same kind of depressions that we do? I don't know.”

“pam you have email. sorry in advance :(”

“Maple, If your frind has been evaluatedthe choise are:

1.Danger to self/others- commitmant against their will to appropriate facility, for detoxification and other treatment as needed.

2.Not a threat but desires help. Get mental health consult and patient to Mental Health facility as an outpatient or residential if patient agreeable.

"how do you help someone that is not ready to help themeselves?" You can't, If someone is capable of understanding the situation, they cannot be force against their will. Change comes from withen! A person needs a "moment od Clarity"

Deppression is the the valley of the shadow of death. It is a scarry place. There is no hope,it is cold and dark. One can see a glimmer of sunlight way far above your head but its SSOOO FFFAAAARRR away. Life is slow motion. You're sad, very sad; to see everything you built for your life can be taken away. But you suck it up and get better or you don't.”

“I have little patience for drunks or suicides. I'd probably hand her a rope if they didn't accuse me of assisting a suicide. If you really want to go, go. I REALLY believe that 95% of all problems will settle with time, but it's YOUR choice.

My daughter ALREADY knows that if I get some terminal illness, I'll only put up token resistance & she's not to interfere.

I'd love to have a heart attack in the woods so my family doesn't have to find me though I would have sympathy for those that had to carry me out, therefore I always bushwhack.

With my luck, I'll just be paralyzed from a stroke & have some critter start knawing on me.........”

“Mapes, you should get quadruple pay for your actions......you shine like a Christmas star.........”

“Well done Maple.
My ex spent 3 days on suicide watch after she left me. (long weird story that I still don't understand) It is a band-aid. It boils down to them wanting to get help, and help themselves. If she comes to you to talk, listen. Then encourage her to seek professional help, or help her get started with it. You can't save the world, but you can be a ray of hope to those you come into contact with. Bless you for your heart.”

“Well Done Mapes, you made the right call...and as for Crash
“wtf is a contection? put the wine bottle down!”
crash bang

I must totally agree. I had a situation a few years ago where a friend (who was in the process of filing for divorce) called me and asked me to "check up on his wife" the next day (it was late Saturday night when he called). I asked why and he explained she made some "comments" I had to tell him that by law he had just informed me someone was going to commit suicide, and since she had shown a prediliction to do that HE needed to call her (the wife's) Psychobabblist and let him know about the call. He did...they went to the house at midnight and found her OD'ed. Luckily she survived that encounter.

From years of working with recovering and practicing alchoholics and addicts I have found very similar things. First there is a desire to CONTROL one's own world. Since controlling our world is pretty much impossible we see each failure as an example of how unworthy we are. The Alchohol and Drugs are but a symptom of a deeper pain. And since alchohol can make a person do stuff they wouldn't normally do...we get to a point where death is apparently the only way out.

It is realizing that life is not WHAT you are but WHO you are that will heal the disparate view we often carry.

Mean is right though...I can treat them all I can, but until they WANT to get well there is nothing I can do.

I have had to medically treat a number of attempted suicides, and council threatening suicides (I was all there was at the time). One of the neatest things I have ever seen is the one who wants to end it all when they do get healed and come back to thank you. Not a big ratio, but it will make it worthwhile.

Mapes, you are one heck of a friend to do what you did, and you done good.”

“Maple leaf:

How does some one get that low?

That's a very complex question around which there is considerable controversy. So here's my take on it, as a depression prone individual on medication.

1) the brain chemistry gets messed up. The brain is an amazingly complex piece of gear. It is subject to all sorts of chemical reactions which govern mood and sensory feelings. Pamela wrote about depression being a dark and cold place. Those were not metaphors. One's eyesight is typically dim and one is frequently "always cold". Those are subtle signs of depression when no other condition would account for them.

The brain chemistry can get messed up for a variety of reasons.

Substance abuse, including alcohol, sexual abuse, substance/sexual addiction, emotional wounding, failure to bond, adult failure to thrive, lot's of things contribute to depressed emotional, nerve, sensory systems. It is a complex process that requires (IMO) an interdisciplinary approach to treatment.

How do you help someone who does not see the need for help? You can't. They believe there is no alternative to their situation. My college age son called me from the school counselor's office and asked me to come pick him up and bring him home for a while. He said he was struggling with suicidal thoughts. They were threatening a forced admit to the local behavioral health facility. I refused and told him it would be better for him to self commit than to force a commitment, but I was not going to enable him to avoid treatment. He did self commit and acknowledged later that it was an excellent choice.

Do not second guess your actions. They were appropriate. But there is only so much you can do. Unless you have the skills, training and permission to participate in part of the interdisciplinary treatment you can not do much more than what you have already done. Suicide threats should always be taken seriously and acted up on appropriately. You did that.”

“Do not second guess your actions. They were appropriate. But there is only so much you can do. Unless you have the skills, training and permission to participate in part of the interdisciplinary treatment you can not do much more than what you have already done. Suicide threats should always be taken seriously and acted up on appropriately. You did that

rev hit the nail on the head there, mapes. remember what he said”

“I think we have all established that yes Maple did the right thing, but the question remains... What now?
Now you should continue to try to help her get help. If she does not have any immediate family around you may be the only person she has as a guiding light. Try to get her to talk to you, and seek the help she so clearly needs. You can only do so much, but at least you will have tried. The effort my make all the difference in the world.”

“Ya did the right thing Mapes as you almost always do. :) Don't feel sorry for being pissed either. You got dragged into someone else's shltstorm and you did the right thing. You were compassionate when you should have and now you naturally feel a bit put upon for having been dragged in.”

“i agree with mg. just knowing that someone cares enough to try could be just the small ray of hope that she needs to start nudging her life in the right direction
last edited: 12/26/06 8:42:27 AM”

“Mapes, as for the what now? For me it is the "watch, Wait, pray" line. Failing to grasp your incredible purpose and true blessings in this life is a failing we all too often fall into.

But it is like treating any other patient, until the patient is willing to get well they will remain sick. Is it an attention thing...or real? With some I have found it is truly an attention thing. One girl I know found she could get attention by the "I just want to end it all." People would be sorry for her...yadda yadda yadda.

Well one night she called one of my friends who called me....15 minutes later she was in the back of an ambulance going to the Regional Mental Hospital. When she got out, she changed the tune to the WHINE of the WEEK.

She was such a drag that I finally had to tell her I wanted her to start with one PURELY POSITIVE statement before she ran down her list of life's greivances.

Rev....I am sorry about your son. Been there, if I can help e-mail me. All I can tell you is that the worst thing we can do is think we have to go this alone. We end up making ourselves like the POW in solitary. We have to learn to look for that "Tap on the Wall" to remind us we are human. If I can help please let me know.”

“There are three things to be wary of in regards to the "be there" idea. They are "enabling" and "codependency" and "friendship burnout."

people who are dressed frequently feel that "no one cares" about them. These are emotional wounds that can be rooted in past experiences. When they discover that some one does care, they can latch on like a terrier and drive the friend banana bonkers. This in turn can create resentment and anger in the person being latched onto, leading to a burnout of the relationship and launching the person back into the "no one cares" mind set.

Alternately, the caring person can try to do all sorts of things to help, and because helping feels so good, they can begin to actually reduce the depressed individuals ability to make their own choices and live their own lives.

There are some things that can be done but they require time, patience and a willingness to be disappointed but endure. The person who is threatening suicide usually does not have a healthy sense of boundaries and what are appropriate expectations. They often have never been allowed to have boundaries or they suffer under the curse of boundaries that are so strict and inflexible that they become oppressive. There is an excellent book out there by Townsend and Cloud called Boundaries. (Unfortunately, due to my training and faith I am not aware of good non-Christian resources. But perhaps for the moment any resources are better than none.)

Her problems are not your problems. But by demonstrating problem solutions in healthy ways you can be part of the process that brings her back from the edge.”

“Well said Rev.
Even if it is just a cry for attention you have to be careful. Depending on the stability of the person, they may be willing to go all the way in faith that someone will show up and save them in the nick of time, and then everyone will pour out emotion on them. This is possibly the most dangerous of the attention getter types, as they are willing to do what ever is necessary, even if it means they lose their life trying. If at first they don't succeed, go bigger next time. I know about this type first hand. And believe me it is hard to tell them from the real thing, but regardless, they need help.”

“I think the hard part of helping is identifying the root cause of the problem. Often finding the "major symptom" can allow you to get help from more of a Peer point of view. Often times I have found the people hit a wall and "just can't go on". From their perspective there is NO way to survive (they have lost hope). With a well oriented peer connection they will find people who can Empathize with their problem as well as offer them either solutions to the problem or the strength that they are not alone and others have successfully surmounted this crisis. It is frequently one of those, "when one door closes God will always open another, but we often spend too much time lamenting the door that is closed." situations.
The advantage of Peer assistance is that they have the person who is able to tell them they have been through a similar minefield (maybe not exactly the same) but that you can find the other door, or even a window if you take the time.
Rev, I think the hardest thing to do is Let Go of the painful past mistakes. I don't think I have ever seen someone truly let go of something without their claw marks from grabbing it back, being all over it.

The hard thing about dealing with Loved Ones is that you are often way too close to the situation to be able to calmly and unemotionally deal with the crisis. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen Negotiators/Counselors ask to be removed from a scene because they had a personal connection to what was happening.

Rev, I had to come to the conclusion I would never get a straight answer from my son. He, like me (when I was his age), had way to many preconceived notions of what "success" is or was. Luckily there are people less attached to the scene who can deal with him, and then let me know what is truly going on.”

“Best of luck with that XL. I can't immagine how difficult that has to be as a parent.”

“As a survivor of a close relationship ended due to terminal depression, my advice is that there is only so much that you can do. Professional help is necessary, no matter what the circumstances or outcome of evaluation. That's the advice you can give your acquaintance but you cannot follow it for her. You have been kind and supportive, but take care of yourself and don't make this your problem. That might sound cold, but don't take it the wrong way. This is truly out of your "circle of control".

Ramblinrev's commentary is very appropos.”

“There are trainings and techniques that can be learned by ordinary folks without a lotof medical knowledge. These do _not_ take the place of medical assistance, nor is it an admission of failure to be on medication for medical problems.

Finding the root issue is sometimes like looking for a needle in a haystack, and sometimes like recognizing the big bright neon sign that is so much a part of the person's landscape they don't even see it any more.

I know this is cliche, but "I got shosen last every time for the baseball team in gym class" may seem like a petty issue, and may not appear to be something to just "get over" but it can dig very deeply into the psyche of sensitive people.”

“XL... I hope this does not sound like a personal attack as I have no knowledge of the situation or history or anything else. But often when we do not get straight answers from people it is because some where they learned that honesty is not safe. This can come from obvious sources or from what appear to be honest attempts to save some one's feelings. My wife and I have have a disagreement over a basic "little white lie" scenario. "Does this dress make me look fat?" I believe the most appropriate answer is the bare unvarnished truth. "Yes" (if indeed it does) because then I am giving her the opportunity to change clothes rather than wander around in unflattering clothing. Her thought is "don't hurt the person's feelings". Well, if the doubt wasn't there, the question wouldn't have been asked. To give the little white lie implies the truth is not acceptable.

Schools reward for politically correct answers not true opinions. I don't know how old your son is now. But it is never too late to begin to make honesty safe. As he comes to feel safe with straight honest answers you may very well begin to see that happen.”

“These are two REALLY good books that helped me out. They are Christian. But they let me know that I wasn't alone, they are two of the resources that helped me find my reason to live.

Encourage me
Dr. Charles R. Swindoll

Victory over the Darkness
by Neil T. Anderson

This is a site on myspace that one of my myspace friends sent in a bulletin this morning. She sent it because she knows that suicide rates escalate during the holidays.
HTTP://WWW.MYSPACE.COM/SUICIDEHOPE
Please read what is there, it is very well written. Suicide is not so much about dieing as it is about ending the pain of living.”

“Rev, I had to take control a few years ago. He had been through all the "feel good" programs, and had learned the value of being a Victim. Kinda like the Menendez Brothers who killed their parents and then their attorney pled for a break becuase "They will have to go through the rest of their lives without their parents."

As for little white lie honesty....um there are things that require rigorous honesty and things you can "be positive". The "Does this dress make me look fat?" can be answered by "No its the exra 100#s you are carrying." or "are you sure that dress is your size?"

There is a big difference between shooting them in the arse "emotionally" and offering constructive criticism. The people who are frequently the most negative and cover it up by being "HONEST" are some who really have problems. A lot of times I try to use the Golden Rule (can being postive get me some gold (LOL)no seriously) and treat them as I might want to be treated.

Right now my Son is going through the 17 (upper teenage) stupidity years. Becuase of some birth problems he has some socialization issues....but he has improved DRAMATICALLY since even last year at this time.”

“"learned the value of being a Victim"

A great many people have learned that lesson. And it is a powerful lesson to learn. I allows us to get away with all sorts of things because "I had a rough childhood." We can rationalize anything and everything.

I like the idea of being positive as long as it does not mask a deception. I agree that whenever some ones uses "honesty" as an excuse to say something they are usually being anything but. It's like the person who says something "For your own good." I usually look for the vested interest the speaker has in what is being said. I like the folks who just simply speak straight and plain. At least you know where you stand.

The only times I am asked "Does this make me look fat?" or similar questions is when the garment has not been worn for the past three years. Not on a new purchase. and my usual response is to the effect of... "I don't think it does you justice." not "Oh no dear.. it looks fine."

I am glad your son is making progress. That's great. As far as the teen age stupidity years are concerned, be thankful they are taking place in the teenage years and not waiting till the 30's. It's a whole lot harder then.”

“Rev, how much (in your professional experience) of the Victimhood craze, that seems to be sweeping the country and the world, is more a case of wierd sort of Co-dependency addiction?”

“"learned the value of being a Victim"

It is still being taught everyday everywhere! I tell my kids, it is not what has happened to you, it is what you are doing with what happened to you. Life IS hard. Deal with it. I will help by giving you the tools I can give, the coping means, the resources. It is now up to you, you have to decide to sink or swim. Life can be beautiful if you choose it to be so; but it's a work in progress.”

“Go Pam!”

“Thank you MarkO, but I can only say it because I have been there and done that. It's not easy when you have been victimized as a child and your brain chemistry is afu. You have to work hard to leave it behind and embrace your future instead.”