Possible GSMNP Fall-07 Trip

“I need a good proposal for this fall or winter in the GSMNP. Saw this proposed on the other side..

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/hikertndude/GSMNPFall-07.gif

I like the path. It visits some of my favorite places, (and a few places I've never actually seen) -- but I don't see a real good way to do this trip in the days suggested.

It seems to be too many days (based on my availability), unless someone sees a way to route it for at least one LESS day?

PLUS -- it totally ignores CS #44. Grrr.

Any thoughts?
last edited: 3/26/07 1:44:59 PM”

“1) Pecks to Laurel in one day?

or

2) just try to find enough days in my availability to do it right?

3) and what about CS #44 and "Three Forks" area? GrRRrrr.

The other trip I still want to do would include the "Bone Valley" area somehow.. but same problems as OTHER proposal.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/hikertndude/GSMNPFall-07a.gif”

“How about anyone else? They got a route they'd been dying to consider backpacking?”

“I would be interested in another GSMNP trip. Mondays are easier for me to get out of work, but I know it is probably the opposite for everyone else.”

“Save a day:
Day 0 - Up to CS#44.
Day 1 - Off-trail to the Balsam Mountain Trail, about 0.5 mi. south of the AT, where the Balsam Mountain Trail makes a 90 degree turn to the east when hiking south. A trail existed across there once upon a time. Then on to the Tricorner Knob Shelter.
Day 2 - To Laurel Gap Shelter.
Day 3 - Out.

Alternative - Skip going to Tricorner Knob Shelter. Spend a night in the back-country before reaching the Balsam Mountain Trail.
last edited: 3/26/07 2:35:55 PM”

“I did that basic loop out of Round Bottoms but in the other direction and left from Cosby the first of July last year. We did it in a 5 night trip, it’s a really pretty area. We stayed at CS#44. It was the worst place I'd ever stayed in the park. It's a swampy, buggy place with horse crap and trash every where. And the water source was almost just as bad, a little more than a mudhole.

Sounds like you’re looking for a 3 day trip. Maybe from Balsam Mt Road to Laurel gap shelter to CS#39 and back to car. Fall is a great time to be out. Good luck.”

“When I stayed at CS#44 it was a beautiful site. And it had great water from a spring. I have some pictures for proof, but no easy way to scan them.”

“one of my favorite GSMNP routes is to start at clingmans, head south on forney creek trail to the lake and then head back up via noland creek and/or forney ridge trail

you get to see all elevations of the park but i'm not sure you'd be able to do this in winter, maybe fall but not winter
last edited: 3/26/07 3:23:44 PM”

“NowSlimmer - "Off-trail to the Balsam Mountain Trail, about 0.5 mi. south of the AT, where the Balsam Mountain Trail makes a 90 degree turn to the east when hiking south. A trail existed across there once upon a time."

You are RIGHT. I forgot about that! Let me pull my book tonight.”

“Was that the old Hyatt Ridge trail?
I've heard that the park cut out (stopped maintaining) the section from 44 to Balsam Mt Trail many moons ago.”

“humanpackmule - I believe you're correct. It must have been a continuation of the current trail that ends at CS#44.”

“(p294): A half mile beyond Hyatt Bald the trail curls left, descending to its terminus at CS#44. 100 years short of reaching the campsite, the trail passes the upper terminus of the Breakneck Ridge Trail (etc..)

CS#44 extends across the closed end of a bare shallow cove shaded by a sparse stand of tall, slender hardwoods. "wonderfully remote, high, and on the edge of the trackless Raven Fork Basin."

goes on to state further -- "site lacks flat plats suitable for camping."

However, "water is available from the cold, cold water of McGehee spring which trickles from a fissure nestled discretely in a rock hillock below the campsite."

and then looking at the map on p282: If you followed breakneck to three forks, and then traced the drainage upwater -- you /could/ end up at Tricorner by always bearing to the right -- but it looks like you'd be better off if you could drift left at first high elevation intersection (and find the AT quickly and easier) without bushwhcking for two days in the wilderness.

“NowSlimmer - "Off-trail to the Balsam Mountain Trail, about 0.5 mi. south of the AT, where the Balsam Mountain Trail makes a 90 degree turn to the east when hiking south. A trail existed across there once upon a time."

Still studying.
last edited: 3/26/07 9:42:10 PM”

“p287: "between these two peaks (Yonaguska and Hardison) is a delightful swag that once harbored the upper terminus of an old Cherokee trace leading up Dashoge Ridge from Three Forks."

My work is done. The rest is history. :)

(Chasing the drainage up Dashoge Ridge from Three Forks like a band of Cherokee might take us two days though... we need to plan light.)



100 years short of reaching the campsite -- LOLz just saw that typo.

I have no idea what weekend. Let's agree on how many days we need.
last edited: 3/26/07 10:08:18 PM”

“Also, I believe there was another trail that led to somewhere along the Hughes Ridge Trail.”

“The Old Hyatt Ridge trail still exists............in pieces. See my report on SP, under Great Smokies page. Its titled "Bushwhack from Hell" I have never been as happy as when I came out at #44. If considering from Balsam Mt trail to Hyatt Springs then be prepared. You have been warned, off trail in the Smokies (and the SE in general) can be difficult.”

“I'd try for 44 instead of 47. You know I love 47, but the magic of 47 is as a basecamp with exploring downstream. The site itself is a hole.”

“dayhiker - I'm surprised! What do you mean by a "hole?" I thought you folks enjoyed that place, CS#47.

The site is small, but it seems to have some enchantment. It has some real, nice healthy grass, which most sites lack. There are some great views with the creek rushing past. You can even watch the cascades(splashing water) in the upstream direction from the bridge. The old, metal bridge itself is unique. There are some nice rocks for cooking and for sitting. I have never encountered another campsite like it in the Park.

Maybe you meant CS#44 is a hole. However, I found it nice, too. There was a lot of good grass in the upper area. There was room to explore. I found a downed tree or two with seating space for several. Even searching for the spring was a great experience. It was mystic as I wonder what was beyond the hills that boxed in three sides of the site. Likewise, I wondered where the trails of old were hidden. Even the deer enjoyed the taste of the tender grass. But, without a Hooter's in the vicinity, I guess both places were holes to some folks.

Seek not, find not!
last edited: 3/27/07 9:01:31 AM”

“I love the location just not the campsite. It's tight with maybe room for 3-4 tents. There is little opportunity for firewood for a fire. You have to hang your food off a really bad contraption from the top of the bridge that I could get down if I spent about 30 seconds thinking about it and the trail runs right through the middle of camp.

I love the location though and hope to go back this summer for another water exploration trip.”

“I found lots of firwood across the creek, both along the switchback trail and off-trail. When I was there, they had one of the old, food storage poles with the barbs situated next to the trail at the back of the site across from the bridge/creek. The assist(lift) pole was too heavy for easy use, so I just ran a line over a barb, hoisted my food pack and tied the line over by the bridge.

Yes, the trail needs some additions. All the traffic passing by there necessitates at least a 4-lane trail! LOL.
last edited: 3/27/07 11:45:00 AM”

“The first time there we just hung our food from under the bridge.

Last time there I put my stove under the wood and still couldn't get it to start.

I do love the place though.”

“

”

“Nice pictures. Thanks.

Sounds like I need to show you how to collect dry, burnable firewood, or else, get you a bigger stove! Driftwood is great, but is not to be collected while it is still floating. LOL.

I see grass at the bottom of one picture. But from the other picture, it appears that you made camp across the trail, thus avoiding the grassy area and leaving it for cooking, a campfire and recreation.

I, too, would like to return there.”

“Hey!! I wanna hit bone valley and try to sneak in a 3-4 night trip finally.”

“You'll enjoy it, OPIE. I have not gone all the way up Bone Valley Trail, yet. But I rate each of the five campsites on Hazel Creek Trail amongst the top five campsites in the Park. And you can take a cart on the trail. It's the only trail in the Park where one is permitted. Some people take everything including the kitchen sink with them. Why? Because Hazel Creek is about the best fishing creek in the Park!”

“Ok, again no scheduled date/timeline as of now -- but clearly a lot of interest.

Day 0: Get to CS44.

Day 1: Get to Three Forks, and make a decision based on our progress.

A: If we think it is going to take two days to ascend the drainage up Dashoge Ridge from Three Forks -- then we skip TriCorner and proceed east (day 3) and south down the mountain back to our cars.

B: If we think it is going to take one day to ascend the drainage up Dashoge Ridge from Three Forks -- then we camp at TriCorner end of day 1, and and proceed east (day 2-3) and south down the mountain back to our cars.

C: If we think it is going to take forever and a day -- then we abort.



In the meanwhile, I'll continue to study and read. Thank you all for your advice, and valuable information.
last edited: 3/27/07 8:51:56 PM”

“Edoc -- expect email from me.”

“TD,

I got mail from you but no questions or comments.”

“edoc -- Just verifying. I didn't completely understand WHERE your URL was from your earlier post. I wanted to read your TR to see what conclusions you raised.

See my report on SP, under Great Smokies page. Its titled "Bushwhack from Hell"


I've got lots of thoughts, and just trying to organize everything in my mind.
last edited: 3/28/07 10:15:09 AM”

“http://www.summitpost.org/trip-report/216341/Bushwhack-from-Hell-GSMNP-.html

Hikers from the western US have never seen woods as thick as they will see in spots in the Southeast.

Agreed. Porters Creek manway, Ramsey Cascades manway.. these are in my historical past.

What complicated this hike was the ridge was not a straight heading, it contoured SSE, then S, then SSE, and finally S to McGee Springs.

Let's put your hike in reverse, and help me determine a "good route" for getting from McGee Springs to the Balsam Mountain Trail, about 0.5 mi. south of the AT, where the Balsam Mountain Trail makes a 90 degree turn to the east when hiking south.

Nine hours after leaving the Balsam Mt trail, I walked into McGee Springs. It was a very long day.

I hear you! When we did Ramsey Cascades, I was so surprised at how long it took to even go a 1/2 mile at times.

The topozone link is centered in the first swale on Roses Ridge.

Can you email me that image?”

“http://www.summitpost.org/trip-report/216341/Bushwhack-from-Hell-GSMNP-.html

In the east I've been off trail in Smokies and all over the mountains of NC (Balsams, Roans, gorge, the Peak, Crabtree Bald, etc) Clinch and Beartown Mt in Va, Holsten and Chimneytop in Tenn, Letcher HP in Kentucky; many solo. Route from Balsam Mt trail to CS #44, down Roses Ridge, very thick; hardest hike I've ever done. See my TR. I don't mean to toot my horn but I have alot of experience, bushwhacking through thick Rhodos can be exceedingly difficult and frustrating.I suspect following the creek from Three Forks to Tri-Corner would be tough. Probably taking one long or into a second one. Once committed, it may be hard to bail. Don't let me discourage you, I don't know how much off trail experience you have. Bushwhacking in the east can really be beastly. I think many people underestimate its difficulty. Tell me when, I could possibly join you if interested.
last edited: 3/28/07 12:55:22 PM”

“I would welcome any help you can provide sir. I'll continue to be studying in preparation.

I think I might be able to talk my "guide" from the Ramsey Cascades trip into coming also.”

“sir is my dad.”

“http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/hikertndude/GSMNPFall-07b.gif


(part of an email from a friend of mine)..
Hey Chris ... (if you) mean going from Campsite 44/McGee Spring, taking the unmaintained trail along the ridge top which leads down to Three Forks, then taking Left Fork up to TriCorner shelter.. the trip down to Three Forks which in and out can be a long day hike. Just some short notes on the above trip: camping at Three Forks can be much colder than you would expect, since it is at the bottom of several valleys and running water is right next to. You also have to cross Raven Creek at it's head which is already very wide, so you will get your feet wet here. That being said, it is a gorgeous camp site with a large flat open area on the other side, there even use to be a cabin there, though nothing remains of it. The trip up Left Fork from what I remember is a lot of creek tromping and bouldering, eventually leading to heading up the side of the ridge but it never is terribly steep. It's a full days worth and the following day is a nice trail hike out.”

“Ok. My apologies. Found a much better version of what I need I think?

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/hikertndude/GSMNPFall-07c.gif

DOH. Would help if I just used the 1931 GSMNP map.”

“Interesting route. Could be tough, really depends on how thick the woods are. I've been off trail and it was wide open and suddenly become a jungle. Its a little nasty atop Marks, blowdowns galore. Once you drop off Marks, the old Hyatt Ridge trail is easy to follow with all the folks tramping and leaving survey tape.

Once you leave Middle Fork I doubt there will be any water. And its 2000' vertical to the Marks summit. When I came down Roses Ridge, I was running out of water but luckyly found the headwaters of Thickett Branch. That hike was epic. Great trip. Aside from the AT thru hikers at Tri-Corner, I saw 6 people in 4 days. As Colonel Kurtz said, "Oh the horror, the horror."”

“A good friend of mine has pointed out that the entire trail description and map exists thru "Hiker's Guide to the Smokies by Dick Murlless and Constance Stallings".. so I've purchased a book from Amazon.com.”

“What trail description? Old trails can often be followed by the old treadway, etc but in other places is gone. On Roses Ridge, at the Marks/Hardison saddle and in the 2 spots where the ridge drops to the SSE, there is no trail just at a wall of Rhododendron. I'm not sure where the Hyatt Ridge trail dropped down the ridge. Suspect it circled around the north side of the peak but its hard to tell. If questions e-mail me.”

“Theres no way to tell what route from A to B will be easier/better. Thats part of the adventure! On Clinch Mountain last winter it took me over an hour to go 1/3 mile,; through laurel and blueberries with snow in my face. Man it frustrating.”

“What trail description?

Oh, I totally understand. Quite often ridge tops aren't as passable as you'd think, which is why we always take creeks.

Old trails can often be followed by the old treadway, etc but in other places is gone.

There is a "trail" heading along the ridge due west from 44 down to Three Forks. It's mainly just a swath through the rhododendron. This still persist because fishermen still occasionally go down there.

The main thing I learned from the 1931 GSMNP map is that a trail existed at one time -- which tells me that with a little more research this proposal is doable. Whether we choose to follow the creek or follow the ridge will continue to be debatable.. In the meanwhile, I'll be trying to finalize "the plan" and get it posted on the trips page.

I keep thinking back to our Ramsey Cascades trip -- there we times that we were not even on the ground (riding the RHO up on top rather than try to wade through it). In general, I've seen two choices -- 1) follow the creek by swimming, bouldering, or 2) follow the "path" in some DENSE foilage.
last edited: 3/29/07 7:53:12 AM”

“Three Forks sounds popular. On this board, and others, many people comment on going down there. As to the path, just have to see what is presented. Bushwhacking off Reinhart Knob, I had to alternate between the drainage and ridge. I followed the path of least resisitance.

As to Ramsey Cascades, do people travel above the falls? How far? Never been over there.”

“As to Ramsey Cascades, do people travel above the falls? How far? Never been over there.

Yes -- that's what I was trying to say before.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/hikertndude/GSMNPFall-07d.gif”

“you left out the Mt Cammerer manway”

“Mt. Sterling Manway!”

“LOLz. Yup. I only listed the ones that I had done.

By the way guys -- also got this email today on the proposed trip: Chris! How you been man? What are you plotting these days? Breakneck Ridge trail is still there, but hard to find and follow. The route you have highlighted beyond the big pool at Three Forks probably disappeared at least fifty years ago. Somebody at least has tried it recently. When the subject came up on the Griztrax (http://www.griztrax.net/) message board of most difficult off trail hiking encountered in the part, a guy who goes by whitebeard posted this:

"My vote for the roughest country in the Park is the climb up Middle Fork Ridge (not Middle Fork, which isn't bad) but Middle Fork Ridge from Big Pool. A friend and I gave up after we determined that we had gone less than a mile. That was after five hours of some of the worst rhodo I've ever seen."



Also – check out this link on that board--> http://www.griztrax.net/hiking/Smokies/HyattRidge/HyattRidge.html


last edited: 3/29/07 11:48:20 AM”

“Ha! Maybe there was something behind my remarking that a day might be saved by hiking through all those "Rhododendron Hells!"
last edited: 3/29/07 12:10:24 PM”

“I'm getting excited.. it's shaping up to be a really good trip.. Now I just need to figure out what weekend to have it..”

“TD, have you thought about the possibility of someone getting lost ;)”

“LOLz.. we don't have to worry about that Ewker -- if they get lost on this trip.. NO ONE would ever find them again.

Hey!.. have you thought about going? (evil grin)”

“it is a possibility that I would go..just depends on when it is. I am planning on going to The Gathering in Oct. http://www.aldha.org/gathring.htm

It will be at Gettysburg, Pa..I would like to do a couple of tourist days there before or after the event”