Died of Thirst...Needlessly?

“Survival course, GUIDED by guides with water, who watched a student die of thirst...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269688,00.html”

“and 100 yards from a water sorce the guides knew was there...”

“all this is doing is bringing publicity to the organization...hell, now i want to go do it”

“If I want to kill myself in outdoor action what do I need a guide and pay 3000$? Hell, I surely can run into the desert on my own. Can not be that difficult. And a couple of month on the will find my dryed out, shriffeled little body. I sure make a nice mummy. Or I run into the Alaska wilderness, without a map and only a handful of rice.”

“Assisted suicide?”

“That is THE most disqusting thing I have ever read. I cannot believe that they won't be at least investigated for this murder.”

“I don't think volunteer participation in dangerous activities is murder. He signed a waver, could not hack it and died. We all die. Nobody killed him.”

“There has to be a point where they say someone needs aid if its available.”

“Did he say he wanted help? There has to be a point where someone says he wants/needs it, rather than being a bloody macho until the bitter end. No?”

“One must question the sanity of those that volunteer for such things.”

“I don't mind if people want to do insane things, why not? Have fun!

Nobody has to sign a 'waiver' befor doing the 'tough guy contest' in Wales ("we bring you as close to death as possible"), to participate in the 'cheese rolling race' in Gloustershire (England), climb the Matterhorn (Switzerland) with sneakers on, or run with the bulls in Pamplona (Spain). No need to get a health form signed by your doctor, stating that you're pyhsically and mentally fit (requiered for paticipation in a NOLS course!). If you get gored to death by a bull - well, that's part of the fun, isn't it?
Who do you want to blame? You want to investigate? You want to sue somebody? Whom...the bull? The Spaniards? The Matterhorn? The Welsh? ...hahahahah! Everybody knows the Welsh are nuts.

Want to do something stupid today? Cool! Visite Europe or anywhere outside the US. Feel free and...have a nice day.”

“Nobody has to sign a 'waiver' befor doing the 'tough guy contest' in Wales ("we bring you as close to death as possible"), to participate in the 'cheese rolling race' in Gloustershire (England), climb the Matterhorn (Switzerland) with sneakers on, or run with the bulls in Pamplona (Spain).
Euro Hike
1:19:28 PM
5/04/07

But do you have to pay for the privilege of doing these things? These folks paid over $3 grand for this trip. There are signs of sever dehydration. From the reports I have read these signs were ignored or set aside. I do not think the program is guilty of murder. Nor do I think they should necessarily be held liable for his death. I do not see "blaming the victim" but I do see an abdication of the leadership and trust placed in the staff.

Here is where I think things should be changed. At the point where the leadership feels the life of the person is in imminent danger there should be intervention. Particularly when the participant is not in a capacity to refuse. At that point, the person is off the trip. They are evaced to medical care. They do not return. Period. No refunds. No pro rata. No recourse. That's it.

I think hiding behind the release is a legal maneuver which, in fact may very well not hold up in court. In the ministry that I direct I have waivers and releases signed as a matter of course. But we have all been told the waivers and releases are not binding in court is the court and/or jury want to find extenuating circumstances.

I think when death is a near certainty, there becomes an obligation on the part of the leadership team of a commercial program to give first priority to saving the life. But then the rest of the burden does indeed belong to the participant.”

“mmmm...I admit there is a point to it Ramblinrev.

But then, there are those who climb Mt. Everest as part of a commerical, guided program. They pay looooots of money for that privilege. Lots of money! The chances are pretty high up that a customer will die. A couple of them actually do so every year. There is a reason why it is called the 'death zone'. Money is good, the more the better, but hey, it won't keep you warm and you can't drink it when you're thirsty.”

“Money is good, the more the better, but hey, it won't keep you warm ”
Euro Hike
12:58:03 PM
5/04/07

Well if you had enough paper money, you probably could cover yourself with it and it would have some kind of R value. ;-)”

“BOSS should be charged. This is a survival course right? Any sane person would hike at night-time and early morning, and rest when the sun is at it's strongest.

So, this wasn't a "Survival" course...it was a death-march.....”

“stanlee, you are absolutely correct!

And I don't care what kind of money he paid, they were responsible for him; they had water for emergencies and they totally missed the signs of his SEVERE dehydration. What kind of training did THEY have?”

“The learned not to participate in any more BOSS expeditions!!!! And hopefully other "adventure travellers" hear about this.”

“It makes me wonder if anyone guiding that expedition had any kind of medical background. I'm a medic and just reading the account, its obvious this guy was in trouble early. Another question, was there anyone monitoring the participants health during this exercise? Simple things such as checking vitals and evaluating his alertness and checking the skin turgor would have clued these people in that this guy was in danger. Maybe these people didn't kill him but they most certainly didn't save him. I think they need to take a hard look at their program and see how they could have changed the outcome without sacrificing the goal of the course. Someone I knew from high school died on Everest after falling 40 feet into a crevice. He was raising money for a disease that killed his mother and sister. He knew it was dangerous and in that situation, there was no one to blame...an unfortunate accident. I guess at some point you are ultimately responsible for your own wellbeing.”