R.I.P. Fallwell

“mapleleaf

That sounds very interesting. My only concern in tgat you realize if yiou want to determine if the guy is a "hater", ou should be tryimg to figure out what those quotes meant to Jerry, not us.

i'm not religious, and certainly wasnt a follower of Falwell or anyone else - but if youre going to condemn a man when hes dead, at least keep his words and actions in their original spirit and intent instead of reinterpreting them for youself.”

“you seem to be missing the point. he talked to his followers. he talked they listened. they did what he wanted. he says that he speaks for GOD. so no matter what you and I think these are HIS OWN WORDS. not mine.

what does the word punish mean?

Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted or disobedient behavior..

think about the very first line. if you are told that something deserved to be punished, would you treat it with kindness? he prayed on peoples fears. that is what i disliked about him. at no time have i said that i was dancing on his grave. nor would I.
I have said that he will be judge by his god for his own words.

im not sure what you are defending? what people thought of him or his own words?”

“the point is to determijne ehrther or not he was a hater

the olnly way to do that be analyIng his words is to determine what his original intent in saying tham was, not how you or I interpret them.

I am only defending his words in how he meant for them to be understood by his audience, not what people thought of him or what you thought of him or anything else.”

“ok i had to read what you wrote twice.
you have contradicted yourself.”

“I think ive discovered your confusion.

Your interpretation of the whole punishment thing gave it away.

My parents were christians. They, and pretty much ALL christians believe that EVERYONE deserves punishment thats why they need christ.

to single this guy ou as a hatwr for believing that same thing all christians believeis unfair.”

“wanna tell me how you think i contradicted myself???”

“Is anyone the least worried at how much trust and belief that humans put in the PEOPLE representing God rather than God?

I mean I remember seeing an advertisement for Jimmy Swaggart it said, "Come to the @****#& Civic Center and see HIM!!!' With Jimmy's photograph.....

I find it kinda scary that we are willing to put so much trust in MEN (generic here) regardless of what they claim. Trusting in people will always let you down....”

“mapes, you'd have better luck squeezing blood from a rock than get a straight answer from this sarge-esqe troll.”

“thats the second time youve said i didnt answer your question

can you throw me a bone and tell us which one?”

“thank you Xl. that is what I have been trying to say all along.

corey i understand what you are trying to say. Thank you for being civil here on a very touchy topic. i will stick to my guns and say it is all in the way you and I translate things.

im just not into people telling me what I should think. maybe thats why i shy away from religion. i do not talk about as a rule. you can believe in it all you want, but do not turn your nose down at me if I think other!

I went to church with my ex once, when I heard the priest say "If a jew knocks at your door, do not open it"

sorry but I got up right then and there and said i will never return to a place that turns away anyone just becuse they do not think the way you and I do. oh and yes I did say it outloud. real loud!

I know there is a god. he lives in my heart and yours. my church is on top of a mountain. in my garden. in my car right after someone almost kills me. call me a libbie, call me a tree hugger. but what do you care? it makes me happy.”

“lq this is not sarge. he is trying to understand and I suck at using the right words. my fault.
sarge would be full of hate. i do not get that from corey”

“Mapes...heck Corey too...I see the misunderstanding..it comes from Man's interpretation of God's word.

I truly believe that Christ would not have suffered as he did and died as he did if we were all predestined to go to Hell. I do not believe he came down to die for a select group.

What turns me off is the ministers who either A. Make me feel useless unless I GIVE to THEIR CHURCH or B. Tell me HOW they think I should live.

My question is (and athiests skip to the next thread) God knows us, he knows our faults and our strenghts. I see no reason why he would want to "TEST" us. Jeese thats like running a test on something you know the answer to.
Rather I see "the Bad stuff" as being part of our natural consequences in life. Bad stuff happens, not becuase God is some vengeful 7 year old with a Magnifying glass over an anthill, but becuase that is WHAT happens in the natural operations of MANKIND and the EARTH.

It is our choice whether each disaster, or Intense Learning Situation as I like to call it, is a reason to give up or a reason to learn something we will be able to pass on.

Ministers of the WORD OF GOD who preach anything from the negative emotions are giving into their inner failings. For that reasons I see all of them as Men, fallible yes, so each has to be considered in the context of his life and experience.

Did Falwell cause us to question WHO and WHAT we are? Yes. Do you agree? Don't care. Jerry did do some excellent stuff in his time. And you know what...unlike other "ministers" no one died as a result of his speeches.”

“I agree with all that mapleleaf. afir enough

by the way, to be fair to that priest, you might have done him fair if you listened to the rest of that

if I remember correctly its a direct quote from the bible and it refers to a specific incident where the jews would try to convert christians, basically saying its better not to argue with them, so really youj and the priest had more in common with your beliefs than you thought

I dont agree with everything0 bujt sometimes its worth having an open ear and mind.”

“What possible context could that irresponsible generalization be made in that would change her mind, Corey?


RES IPSA LOQUITUR (The thing speaks for itself)”

“which generaliAtion?”

“I went to church with my ex once, when I heard the priest say "If a jew knocks at your door, do not open it"



Pick a Jew!!! Any Jew!!!

What don't you understand?”

“You know what, Corey? I've been listening to this hate-filled type sh_t all my life. Frankly, at 52 years of age, I've had it with moronic 6th century mentalities!! No, I don't want to listen to some warped context for blatant misguided hatred anymore. I've heard enough of this BS diatribe. You want to defend the likes of scumbags like Falwell, go ahead. It's your call.”

“What don't you understand?

Chill out! she listed 5 statements. I justg asked which one, and you were referring to something else entirely.

I just asnwered that one above. I think you should read the thread before getting tough with people. This place is volitile.”

“The deal is that Cory here wants to see exactly were it is in stone that Falwell in public that he hated Jews. It doesn't understand that the nudge-nudge, implying part of our language is just as good.

Hey, I know Corey isn't a Daoist, but you know how those people are, any way. We don't need their kind 'round here any how. nudge nudge ; ;”

“Don't take it that way, Corey. This was written for emphasis, not to demonstrate anger. But, yes, I have a short tolerance for that type of thinking. That much is true...”

“You need to relax.

That quote refers to Jesus saying exactly what youre saying. Its not worth arguing with people about their faith. If youd stop your own hate you just might learn something.

Ill look up the verse for you. Hold on please.”

“Corey, thank you, but no thank you. You seem like a very nice gentleman. But, I am now choosing to end my conversation with you.

You seem bent on labeling me as an angry person because of my writing style. I explained that to you and it didn't seem to register. You are also referring to hatred that you feel is within me. You don't know a thing about me, my friend. It is presumptuous of you to make a statement to that effect. That also goes for the insinuation of close-mindedness. There are other people out there that I would rather talk to than you. Please don't address me anymore and we'll get along just fine...”

“let me explain. I wasnt giving you a hard time. I wrote that before your response. I didnt send it until afyer you sent yours. I was looking uo the verse and was having trouble so I sent what I wrote. I believe you that you werent angry. Funny how if you take someones words out of context they can be misunderstood as hateful. Im still looking up the verse, not to argue, but to inform. It may take a while since it been a long time hearing the bible.

You should relax though... =)”

“tree he is right, relax darling. he is not going after you. he is just trying to understand. teach!”

“Fine. If I concede that point, will you give me an instance (and context) where Maple's quote from the preacher would be acceptable?”

“Yes Mapes, now why don't you go help your relax. I'm sure you know what works best. ;D”

“I think I did above. The context is if people (non chbristians) are going around to doors telling people to be something other than christians with the purpose of engaging in debate, dont get in a heated argument with them, just ignore them.

Sorry but I think I dont have it 100 pct, so give me a sec to get original quote. Taint easy in my state to surf the web.”

“Heeey, noooooooow (best Stern voice)”

“That's a dodge that dosen't work for a blanket statement that says don't answer your door for a Jew. It assumes that you already know the message that is going to be delivered once you open that door. This advice precedes that. Sorry. Please try again...”

“umm if you open the door and you think it is a jew but only Avon calling, do you still open the door?


hahah I kill me”

“It assumes that you already know the message that is going to be delivered once you open that door.

Thats the point. That IS the assumption in the original context. Thats why I told mapleleaf she she have stayed and listened to the rest.

Sorry its taking so long. I WILL find it. =)”

“What about a Jewish Avon sales lady?

What then?!?!

lol!”

“Jerry would be proud of this exercise over bigotry”

“LQ to fuuny. on that note let the guy rest in peace.”

“I found it!

Read 2 John 1.That is the reference.

What John is sqying is hes addredsing the elders of the church. Ther ere jews going around basically teaching the jews a false message, according to John. Hes simply telling them to not listen to these false teachers, to stick with the plan.

Any number of commentaries are out there to give the historical background on the letter.

He's not referring to all jews, just the ones going around trying to teach them false teachings. (remember, back then jews and christian teachers were of similar teachings, this is when christianity was new and the apostles were first getting thw word out about jesus)”

“Are you sure its the 6th Century?

I think all of those statements by Falwell are reprehensible, whatever the context.
There is no excuse for that kind of rabble-rousing and rabble-rousing is exactly what it is.

As I said earlier, I know "white" christians the way Tarzan knows apes and I know what rabble-rousing is no matter if the rabble-rouser has a big smile on his face while he's stirring up the flock.

Rip Falwell!!!”

“treebeard, here is a pretty thorough commentary that should give you the context you asked for

When the priest says dont open the doors to jews, this is where he gets it from. It's not a hateful mesage aganst jews, remember, they WERE jews! =)

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=2069”

“Sure, but in the context of the 21st Century it is intended to stir up old mistrust of Jews and has no legitimate use today.

I have never in my 54 years had Jews knocking on my door except my Jewish friends and relations wishing to come in and visit with me and my family.

It is likely that the people to whom Falwell or any other preacher would direct such words are the sort of people who have little if any contact with Jews.
And the only thing that these people know about Jews is what they are told by Falwell and other preachers.

And since many of those followers are devoted to Falwell and said preachers, they trust that what is said to them is in their best interest.”

“Silly Libbies Love To Hate”

“NC
last edited: 5/18/07 10:42:24 AM”

“marko, everything in the bible is taught in churches, thats what churches do

Its more likely is mapleleaf listened to that sermon, she would have heard teachings about false teachers in the context of the letter, 2 John.

You are missing the point. Its not about jews, its about false teqachers. Anybody who reads more than one verse would know that.

and there is certainly nothing in there about hate.
last edited: 5/18/07 10:46:18 AM”

“

It must really suck to know a porn king (Husler Mag) has more class than TT Libbies.
last edited: 5/18/07 11:19:57 AM”

“never mind SS your not worth it
last edited: 5/18/07 12:10:35 PM”

“I'm not missing Falwell's point, he was a false teacher and a huckster.

Stove, I thought you might have lost some of your nastiness having had a brush with death and still possessed with the gift of life.

Silly me.....

I think I will make a donation to People For The American Way in honor of the passing of the "good" reverend.”

“How does he discern the underware stains left by the libbies from those by himself.”

“ummm uncliff please translate that”

“Corey, I will be honest with you. I know of insurance policies that are shorter and more interesting than that dry reading. I am not being closed-minded. But, you're asking me to find a needle in a haystack that may or may not exist in there.

The statement made by the preacher is bigoted in and of itself. To start out by saying something hateful like that doesn't entice anyone in his/her right mind to give the speaker any more of their time. Why should I try to make sense out of someone who speaks like that? What makes you think that this person deserves my attention, just so I can dig something out of him just on the supposition that I may he may be able to find something to justify that. I asked you for a simple example of context and you give me a scripture reading assignment. I scanned over some of that and frankly, I don't care enough about this person to try and prove that I was wrong and jumped the gun on him. If he's such a linguist, I would think he should have had beter command of the language. Unless, of course, his motivation was as I expect it was. In that case, mission accomplished, as your commander in cheese might say!
last edited: 5/18/07 1:08:11 PM”

“Rather than ants.”

“treebeard, Im not sure if youre serious, but just in case Ill clip some key things from the commentary.

the 2 John 1 reference is short and simple to look uo. If you really want to get vto thr bottom of this youd look at that. Its not long. I cant read for you.”

“treebeard,

I'll be honest with you too. I re-read what you wrote and apparenlty you haven't paid a bit of attention. The commentary is not the writings of Falwellk or the priest, it's commentary on 2 John 1, they part of the bible that mapleleaf's priest was referencing.
2 John 1, which the priest referenced, is basically saying "there are certain jews which are giving false teachings, don't lesten to them." Here is the text if you care to read it for yourself. He's talking to specific people in the church (elders).
2 John 1

1The elder,
To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth - 2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

3Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.

4It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

12I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.

13The children of your chosen sister send their greetings.

-------

Now, the commentary I gave you above was a commentary on that part of scripture. It just confirms what I've beensaying, that this chapter of the bible is not about hate, but About avoiding false teachers. I'll put some keypoints forom it here:

Summary

Just as in the Gospel of John the author does not explicitly identify himself with the Apostle John, so here he prefers the designation the elder. The churches to which he wrote knew who he was. The elect lady and her children refers to a particular local church at some distance from the community where the author is living at the time. 2 John is being written to warn a "sister" congregation some distance away of the missionary efforts of the secessionist false teachers, and the dangers of welcoming them whenever they should arrive.

and --

Summary

The statement do not receive him into your house could simply be a prohibition against showing hospitality to the traveling representatives of the secessionist opponents. It is possible, though, that the house refers to a house church, in which case the author of 2 John is saying the opponents should not be given an opportunity as travelling teachers to speak to the house church and thus spread their false teaching.

I hpoe that makes your reading simpler. I'm not sure what else I can do for you.”