Ron Paul

“I've had a chance to catch up a little and read up on the last Republican presidential debate. It's amazing to see Ron Paul so blasted for speaking such an elementary and obvious truth. He's like the kid who pointed out the emperor had no clothes, only this time Fox, Rudy and the others wanted to shut him up.

I've always found Ron Paul interesting because he sticks to his principles and calls it like he sees it. He is a real traditional conservative. I disagree with him on most issues, I even disagree with his call for a quick pull out from Iraq. But, I have to admire him for his guts in speaking a plain truth. The reason there is so much enmity towards us in the Muslim world is because of what we do abroad:

They attack us because we've been over there. We've been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We've been in the Middle East. I think Reagan was right. We don't understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics. Right now, we're building an embassy in Iraq that is bigger than the Vatican. We're building 14 permanent bases. What would we say here if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico? We would be objecting?

Now, did any one defend the US policy that had been intervening in the Middle East for more than a 1/2 century, supporting coups and launching military strikes? Nope. No one tried to defend it. They all just pretended you'd have to be crazy to think that all this conflict had anything to do with out foreign policy. We were just hanging out, enjoying our freedoms and not bothering anyone when these ill tempered spoil sports started attacking us. Rudy was almost apoplectic at the implication that 9/11 had anything to do with anything our government ever did outside our borders.

I wonder if in the 40s anyone tried to pretend that Pearl Harbor had nothing to do with our foreign policy, and that Japan's military industrial complex hated our freedoms.”

“I've seen a few clips on YouTube.  Truly astounding... not to mention the cacophony in the aftermath.  He definitely swatted a hornets nest.

I recall so many occasions when those actions were defended as necessary to the conduct of the Cold War, but never swept under the rug like that.  It was like they all forgot their lines and began to sputter.

Perhaps they should've given the fundraising a rest long enough to read the the 9/11 Commission Report?


I wonder.  What was put forward at the time as the reason for the Pearl Harbor attack?  Raw Japanese expansionism rather than an ultimatum to get out of Manchuria, I'll bet.”

“Well Tilt the REASON for Pearl Harbor was to strike a blow to disable the US Pacific Fleet and allow the Japanese to gain a swift victory in the Pacific.

In fact Admiral Yamamoto made the prediction essentially "If we do this I can guarantee 6 month to a year of free run in the Pacific. But if the war is to last longer than a couple of years, I cannot guarantee an eventual victory."

(LOL) 5 months and 27 days later he gave the order to turn back from Midway.

The debacle of Pearl Harbor came from
1. The Belief in the Old Political Admirals that a torpeado attack could not be effectivly launched against a shallow harbor like Pearl. (Granted these same IDOTs failed to notice the Japanese effectivly wiped out the Russian fleet only a few decades earlier in a similar attack).

2. The belief that they Japanese would hit a base closer to their home port.

3. The fact that the Prevailing leadership did not feel that Japan would attack withouth warning (another trait that they had used previously).

4. Incompetence..YES. But that President had been in power at least one term when we got hit.

If you study General GC Marshall, Roosevelt was blissfully unaware of the threat of World Fascisim even as late as 1939.”

“It's a post 9/11 world, and the Republicans will make sure you remember that every day of your life.

This is the only card they have left, and a weak one at that.

It's too bad that Paul's comments are poo-poo'd so much. It's obvious the Right wants nothing to do with honest discourse.

The debates were a great insight to the muddle field of losers the Republicans are fielding for this cycle. My only hope is that Newt jumps in soon; then we'll have a real meltdown of that once proud party.”

“Ron Paul has every bit of support that I can throw his way. I hope you guys do the same. He is just such a common sense guy. He was number one based on a MSNBC poll following the California debate and number two based on a FOXNEWS poll following the South Carolina debate. Ron Paul has the old establishment running scared right now. They even tried to ban him from the Michigan debate. Well a ground swell of supporters myself included, signed online petitions and jammed the phone lines of the RNC demanding that Ron Paul be allowed to debate. We won! You will see Ron Paul in Michigan talking more common sense that the old establishment cannot tolerate.
last edited: 5/20/07 11:27:07 PM”

“I believe Yamamato actually said that if it lasted over a couple of years that they would lose.”

“I must admit that I haven't a clue who Ron Paul is. Looks like I need to read up on him.”

“Do the meltdown, baby!”

“I learned about Ron Paul through the flood of calls on Washington Journal the next day. He would still appoint a right-leaning Justice to the the Supreme Court and leave us defenseless to corporate machinations.


Never read anything about the Manchurian ultimatum before, eh?”

“So we DID bring it on ourselves???? Okay, great, duly noted. (rolls eyes)”

“Now, did any one defend the US policy that had been intervening in the Middle East for more than a 1/2 century, supporting coups and launching military strikes? Nope. No one tried to defend it. They all just pretended you'd have to be crazy to think that all this conflict had anything to do with out foreign policy. We were just hanging out, enjoying our freedoms and not bothering anyone when these ill tempered spoil sports started attacking us. - pedXing

Interesting to see isolationism is alive and well.”

“Simply put, you must consider all the angles to minimize your blind spot. Judging by the reaction to Ron Paul's statements, the field of view of the current crop of Republican wannabes is more blind spot than not: tunnel vision.”

“We didn't bring it on ourselves, they brought it on us. They being them what makes and carries out policy.

There are more ways than simply empire and isolationism.”

“There are more ways than simply empire and isolationism.”
MarkO
9:28:26 AM
5/21/07


Yep, and many of them will get you killed anyway, no matter what boogeyman our "they" is.”

“The "boogyman" is our elected government.
We elected them.”

“Yes, I know who your boogeyman is.”

“We sure were stupid to defend Israel from the beginning, huh. If we hadn't then 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

Like if we hadn't done Lend-Lease, then Pearl Harbor wouldn't have been bombed and Germany wouldn't have declared war on us.”

“Saddam Hussein is my favorite boogeyman.

Now that he's gone I'll have to settle for Kim Jong Il.”

“Dr. Paul kinda' strips the graffiti off of the road signs. The tagging we've done over the last hundreds of years isn't fading as fast as our footprint hoped.”

“In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory.
But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.
Isoroku Yamamoto

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/i/isoroku_yamamoto.html

you are right as usual Dayhiker....(LOL)”

“Thanks for the correct quote.”

“Mutt: How the heck do you read isolationism into anything I said on this thread?

My point was that everyone's response was to ignore the relationship between our foreign policy and the attack. Clearly for those who think our foreign policy was right, the honest, rational response would be to justify our interventions. To deny any connection between our actions and the response is willful ignorance.

How come pointing out the connections is tantamount to isolationism?”

“Silly libbies making mountains out of molehills yet again.”

“So ped...you are saying a failure in Diplomatic Channels (say we refuse to put up with cutsey things like the Rape of Nanking etc) make it OKAY for them to attack us (as in World War II).

Or our continued presence in "islamo fascist playgrounds" makes it right for them to attack us? I mean this is like reading Ward Churchill......WOW.

HMMM I think the Genovese syndrome is strong in the Liberal World. (LOL)

Some people call it Genovese Syndrome...I call it COWARDICE
last edited: 5/21/07 10:13:30 AM”

“Dayhiker here's Ron Paul's bio from his House web site. I first was interested in him when I read an essay he promoted on Davey Crockett's. I think Crockett was a hero of Ron Paul's. I found a version of it on the web. I was not persuaded by it, but was impressed by Ron Paul's directness and consistency in expounding this rugged individualist vision. I have no idea how true the story actually is.

Ron Paul's bio:
http://www.house.gov/paul/bio.shtml

The Davey Crockett essay:
http://www.veiled-chameleon.com/weblog/archives/000055.html”

“"Or our continued presence in "islamo fascist playgrounds" makes it right for them to attack us? "

No”

“Clearly for those who think our foreign policy was right, the honest, rational response would be to justify our interventions. - PedXing

Justify? Why do you think we need to justify anything? What you connote is "apologize" as in apologetics. Our policies did not create 9/11. What created 9/11 were a$$holes who manipulated public perception of our policies to further their own agendas.

To deny any connection between our actions and the response is willful ignorance. - pedXing

Willful ignorance is the America hating attitude shown by doofuses like MarkO.”

““So ped...you are saying a failure in Diplomatic Channels (say we refuse to put up with cutsey things like the Rape of Nanking etc) make it OKAY for them to attack us (as in World War II).

last edited: 5/21/07 11:13:30 AM”
XL400236
11:12:56 AM
5/21/07

No XL. I'm not saying the Pearl Harbor attack was OK. I'm talking about cause and effect, I've said nothing about right or wrong here, just about what's logical and true.

I think it made sense for us to try to thwart Japanese imperial ambitions by use of the flying tigers and other aid to their opponents. It also made sense to try to cut off key natural resources to weaken their imperial march. What wouldn't make sense is to say Pearl Harbor happened because they hated our freedoms or because of the fact that Chrisianity had taken hold in the Hawaiian Islands. They attacked Pearl Harbor as a pre-emptive attack because of what we were doing to thwart their imperial schemes and they knew their ambitions were colliding with ours.”

“Odd twist of a dictionary to get from "justify" to "apologize" and on the way you treat apology as if it means the same thing as apologetics?

Even your average dogmatist will engage in apologetics, but for you justifying US foreign policy is somehow beneath the dignity of our right wing?”

“Oh dear, I'm gonna go cry this one off.

I've been savaged yet again by that mean chihuahua.”

“Just for info Mutt - would a Japanese person who opposed the militarist faction in the lead up to WWII be a traitor, a Japan hater or what? And how about the Japanese people now who say Japan was wrong in their military expansion into China, wrong to bomb Pearl Harbor and that Japan should own up to the atrocities they committed in WWII. Are these Japan haters, traitors or people standing up for the truth and their vision of what Japan might become?”

“gulp. foxnews digs ron paul all of a sudden.

"Those who find Rep. Paul's foreign policy vision fringe-like or crazy would do well to read what other libertarian non-interventionists were saying before the Iraq war began. They were remarkably prescient. Some even predicted a Sept. 11-like attack years before it happened. For example:

— The Cato Institute's Gene Healy: "After our quick victory, and after the "Arab street" fails to rise, you're going to hear a lot of self-congratulation from the hawks. But the fallout from this war is likely to be long-term, in the form of a protracted and messy occupation, and an enhanced terrorist recruitment base."

— Ted Galen Carpenter, also of Cato: "The inevitable U.S. military victory would not be the end of America's troubles in Iraq. Indeed, it would mark the start of a new round of headaches. Ousting Saddam would make Washington responsible for Iraq's political future and entangle the United States in an endless nation-building mission beset by intractable problems."

Now contrast those forecasts — both made before the war — with predictions from the war's architects:

— Assistant Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz: "We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon."

— Vice President Dick Cheney: "I don't think it would be that tough a fight."

— White House economic advisor Glenn Hubbard: "Costs of any [Iraq] intervention would be very small."

— OMB Director Mitch Daniels: "The United States is committed to helping Iraq recover from the conflict, but Iraq will not require sustained aid."

It's striking just how right people who think like Ron Paul were before the war, and how incredibly wrong those now pilling on him were. And yet Paul Wolfowitz was promoted to head the World Bank; Dick Cheney is still vice president; and Mitch Daniels is the governor of Indiana.

The people who were wrong were rewarded. And they go right on mocking the people who were right."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274174,00.html”

“All right here is what Ron Paul is trying to say about the Middle East. We have had a presence there for decades. The CIA and other covert agencies have installed governemnts, supplied arms, drugs, money you name it. In 1990 at the request of Kuwait we bagan a force build-up to push Saddam's forces back to Iraq. One can say this was a justified war because the country that was invaded requested our and other nations aid. From 1990 on we have occupied the region. We didn't remove Saddam from power but instead installed an inspection and weapons removal program for over a decade. The invasion of Iraq has proven that the weapons removal program was a sucess since no WMDs were used or found after our invasion. The people of Iraq have been bombed many times by us since 1990. An Iraqie child 5 years old in Gulf War I would be in his 20's now. Maybe his mother, father, brother, sister was killed or wounded some time since then at the hands of the Amerians. It matters not what the justification for the bombing was he thinks of us as the Great Satan. We are the people that come to kill more of his people everyday. There were no WMD's found but still his family dies either at the hands of the people living there our by American bombs. The source of the killing does not matter. Whatever bad happens he will blame on the Americans. He has been programed by the bombing and probably his religion to fight us till the death. He is willing to strap bombs to his body if it means killing some of the Great Satan. He believes he will be rewarded in heaven for his sacrifice. There are a million copies of him. He has nothing to lose. You are an invader to him and he wants you to leave his soil.

We cannot expect to be able to do black ops using the CIA and special forces without backlash. I'm not saying that we can be total isolationist but, we have to realize that our meddling can have dire outcomes.”

“Hiker - I'm glad Fox still carries some diversity of opinion. Reason magazine seems to be a center right publication that tries to portray itself as the voice of "Reason."”

“Wow you guys have been busy (LOL). Ron Paul is another Ross Perot...(LOL) a libbie spoiler in the Republican Party. Come on....I love isolationists. LOL they want to ISOLATE as long as their little feelings don't get hurt.

I had to do the "meals on wheels" crap in the 1980's when Fort Worthless Jim Wright and company were stopping President Reagan in his constitutional duty to carry out his office. Then you would get some sad sad stowy about wittle stahving kiddies. Well I got roped into taking crap down there and doing that feel good stuff.

Tell you what. Here is the plan, if the North East or ..the BLUE states get hit (this won't happen since you mean the islamo fascists NO evil)....let not hear any whining about it on the threads. (LOL)”

“Some peoples ---- ------- children.”

“The amature terrorism experts on TT should run for office. LOL”

“Of Course the positive about the fringe elements is that they are supposed to make us "review and revise" our parties. Maybe both parties will see that setting a NonAgenda Agenda give rise to this stuff.

I mean really since 1994 or so...can anyone tell me the "PLAN" of either party. Heck the Republicans spent the time trying to be more like the Democrats they replaced and the Dems spent the time trying to relive WATERGATE.”

“My point was that everyone's response was to ignore the relationship between our foreign policy and the attack. Clearly for those who think our foreign policy was right, the honest, rational response would be to justify our interventions. To deny any connection between our actions and the response is willful ignorance.

I agree with our interventions and I'll say that is a major reason why. There is one thing I just don't get about terrorism and the middle east, nobody listens to the terrorists. What do the terrorists say are the reasons?

The origins and perceptions of the goals of the conflict remains greatly disputed between the two sides. According to interviews and articles published online at The Middle East Media Research Institute, Al Qaeda’s narrative claims the attacks on September 11 were caused in part by three main issues. The first issue centers on an enduring U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia, beginning during the first Gulf War. The second issue results from hypocritical U.S. foreign policy that has attempted to colonize the Middle East to protect oil interests. Lastly, Al Qaeda remains angered over U.S. political, economic and military support of Israeli attacks on innocent Muslims in Palestine, as well as U.S.–led sanctions against Iraqi civilians after the Gulf War. [2]

http://www.gse.harvard.edu/~t656_web/peace/Articles_Spring_2003/Gagnon_Jeffrey_USalQaedaConflict.htm”

“Now having said that I most also say that there reasons are not reasonable nor justifiable. They are still wrong. Don't like us? Tough shlt. Get over yourself you self serving Muslim ass holes.”

“Ped, they'd be "Blame Japan Firsters"

(with all due credit to that epitome of ethical behavior, Pat Buchanan)”

“Nigal I think the biggest problem is we have a nation that wants to be "liked" by the world.

It goes along with the "Positive Self image" crap we see in schools. Hard facts (grades, success etc) are decried for "better feelings"

My attitude on foriegn affairs has always been something MSGT Hopper taught me. "HEARTS AND MINDS??? Hell, grab em by the short hairs and their hearts and minds WILL follow."

We are watching the european (even England) try to appease these scum. As a result we are finding times when the only way we can "show toleration" is to Accept and promote thier sick beliefs.

I find it particularly hilarious that the very people who decry strong Judeo/Christian beliefs in society are the FIRST to ask us to tolerate by surrender the Wacky beliefs of this religion of Hate.”

““Ped, they'd be "Blame Japan Firsters"


Tilt giving blessings and cursings about geo-politics? Did you use your real name on your HAMAS membership card?”

“All an 18 year old middleeastern kid has to do is read the 'Ron Paul thread ' on TT and he'll be ready for Jihad.”

“That's what i like about you uncliff. No matter what the subject is or what thread it is on or how any one else is acting I can always count on you to bring the same level of intelligence every time.”

“YAWN...yep I like the Marine Motto, "Only God can judge whether their actions were right or wrong, its the job of the Marine Corps to ensure that meeting happens as soon as possible."”

“Nigal - I think your response is more honest and engaged with the facts than the "they hate our freedoms" stuff. I agree that what the jihadis are doing cannot be justified. I think some of what the US has done in the Middle East was just and right, I think other efforts were unjust and mistaken. Getting Saddam out of Kuwait was definitely justified (calling for an uprising and then letting Saddam massacre the Shiites - a mistake). Orchestrating or supporting a coup in Iran to overthrow and elected government and then backing the Shah for decades was wrong and has caused problems.”

“Ped, its not exaclty the "Freedoms" they hate, but it is that their style of demeaning overbearing Power hungry style is without support in a free society. Face it they almost lost a big one when the Female Fighter pilots raised hell about wearing veils. Now Veils serve a purpose, the demean the women. Their entire society is built upon degrading those beneath you.


LOL I would love to see the US start an insurgency campaign in Iran. Hell blow up a couple of lines here and there. Knock out electricity lines....in no time the WIerdbeards would be facing real problems.”

“True, the overall painting of what we want to do is very pretty, but as you get closer and closer to the painting it blurs and becomes unrecognizable. On the one hand I get so sick of the Jabba the Hutt bloated government screwing up everything it touches but on the other hand I have hit the wall with the Islamic community as a whole.

The biggest, darkest question is this: Can anyone say they don't see the whole thing going any other way than a world war? So why should we strive for defeat and not just do the unpopular thing and just ratchet it up, kick someone's ass in and get it over with?”

“Always attack the innocent populace, never the problems in the big hats.”