Kayak/Canoe Question

“A group of novices are planning a "Deliverence" weekend sans the pig aspect and I cannot quite remember how many mph you can go on a flat (calm) river.

I am looking at doing the Broad River from US221 in NC to SC9 at Lockhart. Several dams to portage around but it's all fun.

Anyone have a good idea on the speed for a leisurely pace?”

“I'D FIGURE 3-4 mph. plus think about stoppimg fopr pee breaks and eating lunch and swimming”

“I would say 2 mph is a more realistic number on flat water.”

“i agree with the 2 mph on flat water. harder to paddle and watch out for those head winds.”

“slow pokes!”

“I'd say the trolling motor on my Old Town Tripper would push ten MPH. 36 lbs of thrust!”

“I hate kayaking on a lake. I think I will get one of those sails for my yak LOL”

“I think in a Yak we can do an easy 3 to 4 mph...but more sustainable especially with Canoes is 2.”

“well I find that I hike and kayak rather slow. I like to take my time and take tons of pics and just look at eavrything. so yes I guess i am a slow poke and darn proud of it :D”

“Thank you for the opinions and I feel I will use 3 mph because there is some current as it is not all slack water.

Depending on the start/stop point we will have a dam to portage or two.”

“Yerby, were not done. Have a seat, this could take awhile.....”

“Yeah I'm waiting for the banter”

“One more thing that MAY have some bearing. One of my favorite local rivers usually has a prevailing headwind when paddling downstream. It is generally easier to paddle up than down. This may factor in for you as well.”

“I know nothing about spray skirts. after this weekend, I learned I really need one. the rapids were a BLAST but the water made the kayak heavy and I was in fear on tipping over.
any suggestions? plus I hope to get it at campmore (i have a $100.00 gift card there)

thanks”

“From the Campmor website......

Our staff of experienced canoeists and kayakers is able to outfit you with the best paddling gear. We carry a large selection of canoe and kayak paddles, pfds, sprayskirts, drybags, safety gear and so much more. Please note that our canoes and kayaks are only available for in store pick up at our Paramus location and are not able to be shipped.

Just tell the Campmor people which kayak model and what type of use it's for and they will fix you up.
last edited: 8/07/07 10:41:50 AM”

“Buy TWO, a FULL SKIRT, and a HALF Skirt...

The half skirt will protect your legs from the sun, the occasional rogue wave from boat wakes or the sub-class 2 rapid....and the BIGGEST REASON: It VENTS the hot air from the boat behind the seat.

Neat added bonus is a net pocket for gear storage on your lap and a cup/waterbottle holder .....”

“thank you troll that is what I was looking for.”

“I want to upgrade my fleet this spring. My dilemma is what to get. I have a solo canoe and two tandems. I typically paddle moderate whitewater as well as easy camping floats (Buffalo River) The solo canoe I have is not well suited to harsh white water. It has little or no rocker and burys the nose easily in waves. I want either a kayak that I can use for overnight floats (Storage) as well as some white water or a Mad River OutrageX or similar canoe. http://www.madrivercanoe.com/outrage-x

I welcome any and all usefull input”

“I'm a kayak guy myself. I only wish I had the experience to answer your question.”

“The problem with the Mad River in white Water is that it all the "cargo room" is taken for air filled flotation bags roped into both the bow and stern...if you want to use which ever for both rough water AND camping, suggest you look at kayaks...

(Opinions Vary - ask the same question on Paddling.net).

Ever consider a Sit obn Top Yak?...not good for Northern Clime Winter weather but plenty of gear storage and there are some models that provide for Rough Water utility.....”

“HbH:

Since you're in Arkansas, I'd suggest posting your question on the Arkansas Canoe Club message board forums.

www.arkansascanoeclub.com

I'm a whitewater kayaker and one of my three 'yaks is a Prijon Chopper that I use for overnight trips.

There are quite a number of "recreational" type kayaks that have storage as well as some hybrid variants with storage like the Dagger Approach that can be used for mild whitewater.
last edited: 2/22/08 6:15:15 PM”

“We are going to buy a new canoe pretty soon and I overwhelmed with the data.

Let's forget about manufacturers for a moment. Someone give me the low down on type of canoe would be best. We will do more flat water paddling than white water. I wouldn't expect to put a canoe on anything more aggressive than Class II.

I see data on hull design, keel type, etc and I feel like a lost ball in high weeds.”

“I once took a trip with five other guys. We did about 40 miles on the Ocmulgee - from Jackson Lake to Macon. Three days/two nights. Mostly flat, with three or four major shoals (class III/II), and several minor ones. I had my mahogany canoe (keeless), one guy had a fiberglass (keeled), and the other was aluminum (keeless).

There seemed to be no difference in the performance of one or the other.”

“the only canoe that I have used (rented) was old Town.

loved it :)”

“Keelless and keeled are useful terms only in so far as they refer to equivalent hull designs. Some hulls are broad and flat some are narrower and more "v" shaped. The "v" does not need to be porminent but it will still make a huge difference in the handling of the boat. My canoe is strictly a flat water boat. Broad, flat with a full keel. It was designed for canoe camping in the Algonquin Wilderness by one of the premier custom buildeers of the day. It's an older boat but in exxcellent condition. The hull designs are really significant and very technical. Unless you can wax eloquent on the subject (which I can not) it can easily overwhelm. The best thing would be to consult with a builder or dealer who can help you sort through the technical jargon.”

“Well at least I feel better at not having a friggin clue about the designs.”

“Whitewater: flat bottom
Flat water: keeled bottom”

“chilli, are you planning on hauling loads (camping gear etc) and what will majority of your canoing be.

if you do mostly rivers and some rapids, i'd say look into a flat bottom (keel less). if you think you will canoe mostly on lakes, then you want a keel because the flat bottom doesn't track worth of darn..

and then of course there are the materials..

also, look at craigslist as there are some great deals on there quite often.”

“what ever you do, do not get a canoe rudder

that is for wimps!!”

“you also mentioned kayaks... tandem ones are nice but no kayak carries as much gear as a canoe can. much faster on flat water though.”

“offtrack, I would expect most of the paddling to be on slow moving rivers or lakes hauling gear.

I would say streams with rapids Class II) would compose maybe 20% of the use, max.”

“Chili -
Will you be a fulltime, professional canoist, ie, 2000 paddle-hours per year? Or will you be a casualist, ie, 20 paddle-hours per year?

If the former - specs are everything. If the latter, it really doesn't make any difference.

I would make $$$ the bottomline if I were you.
last edited: 7/27/09 8:31:02 AM”

“I am guessing 150 hours per year. I am guessing that specs don't really mean much.”

“Wait...who told the op the "pig aspect" was optional?”

“chili if you are just going to be using it off and on maybe weekends now and then don't get too concerned about the specs. I agree with gojo on that. My folks would take a couple of weeks vacation at a time in Algonquin and had the money to get the best.

There used to be what is called a "shoe keel". I don't know if they still make them or not. They were an attempt to make a hybfid boat for fast and flat water. Not terribly successful but not too bad either.

gojo it's been a while since I was looking at canoes but when I was the flat/keeled thing you posted was over simplified. Maybe they have cut out a lot of the variation I don;t know, but a while back it was more complicated than that. However, for the weekend warrior doing lakes and moderate rivers (not white water) I agree.... buy a boat you can afford and use it to have a good time.”

“Thanks. I was getting lost in the minutia.”

“The canoe equation simplified:
C(150)xf2(x-3)S+s-YX(~9/Gg)+/-(H2Ox3)150 =”

“I fell like I am a netflix commercial...

uhm, purple!”

“Six months after moving back to Wisconsin, I had 5 boats. Seven years later, I'm down to 2, a 12 ft Folbot and my 14 ft Gruman canoe. Both work fine.”

“chilli,

i'm thinking i saw a tandem canoe made out of royalex that was either flat bottom with a keel or a slight v bottom @ Dick's for $600(?).. that'd do you great. royalex is indistructo, almost. just keep it out of the sun when storing.”

“Ask Stikmon for advice...


You could also ask over on Paddling.net...”

“yeah, paddling.net is a good one.. also, you may want to find a local canoe/kayak club.. most folks like that are super friendly and helpful.”

“Check into the Old Town Penobscot, chili.
http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/canoes/expedition/penobscot_174.html

Old Town's website lists a dealer in your area as....
sportsman's warehouse
130 marathon way
southaven, MS
38671
Phone: 662-349-5500
last edited: 7/27/09 2:20:43 PM”

“Sportsmans warehouse is out of business. But I am pretty sure the outfitter in Memphis carries Old Town. However, the Old Town canoes I have seen were pretty pricey.

What am I getting for the extra money other than name?”

“What am I getting for the extra money other than name?”
chili36
6:01:19 PM
7/27/09

You'll get different answers to that question. They've been in business for over 100 years so there's a lot of experience there. Their customer service and warrenty used to be top drawer but it's been a long time since I dealt with them. Depth of models is on advantage with Old Town. I grew up in Old Town canoes from the time I was 5. That's a long history with the company but it's not recent experience.

Again.. if you are just getting into canoes then don't fret the small stuff. In terms of their cheaper composite plastic boats you probably are paying mostly for the name.

I would suggest a composite boat since they are usually cheaper. They can take a whole lot of abuse. You can stove them in and beat them out with your hand and they are not really any worse for wear. Coleman makes a decent composite boat. Heavy, just like all the coleman stuff. But for periodic use it might be ok. As long as you ain;t planning on trying to portage the thing several miles over the course of a week.”

“I couldn't have given a better answer, rr.

Chili, the Penobscot goes thru the water very easyly and I love the design. I'm a bit of a canoe snob so ignore me if you are worried about the cost. ;-)

For floating the rivers around here, a wash tub with pontoons will work.”

“I bought the $500 Coleman from Costco 7 or 8 years ago. It got a hole in it, and I was told by Coleman that it is not repairable, as nothing will bond to the material. Whatever.

On top of that, I did notice what money might get you. The cheap one seemed to bend and twist some, and it seemed like I was fighting my own boat a lot. I can tell a difference when renting an Old Towne.

I just thought of something. That POS is still sitting in my parents back yard, probably housing rabbits. I need to go saw it in half.”

“nothing will bond to the material

Hogwash. A high quality duct tape will do the trick - I would bet my life on that!”

“I bought the $500 Coleman from Costco 7 or 8 years ago. It got a hole in it, and I was told by Coleman that it is not repairable, as nothing will bond to the material. Whatever.

ductape
7:26:47 PM
7/27/09

That is correct. You puncture it you might as well take a sheet metal patch some old truck innertubes for gaskets and bolt that sucker on cause ain;t no way to salvage it otherwise. However... It can take some doing to actually puncture it. I have seen them bent all out of shape and banged back to usable condition. Any gear needs care.

They are nasty flexible in tough paddling conditions. Trying to go against the current into the wind in one of those beasts is an exercise in futility. But if you want that be prepared to spend upwards of four figures (new) for a properly engineered boat.

You get what you pay for but then you get back into the minutia. And bigger bucks. Oh.. and steer clear of the square stern POS. They are horrid unless you are gonna put a motor on the thing. In which case get a jon boat not a canoe.
last edited: 7/27/09 4:52:56 PM”

“Have you checked Craigslist?
Jul 24 - OLD TOWN Guide 147 Canoe - $360 - (Memphis, TN)

http://memphis.craigslist.org/
http://northmiss.craigslist.org/
last edited: 7/27/09 4:55:36 PM”