Sicko

“But you yourself have never used it wanderer? It might be worth you and your family giving up your healthcare plan?

Private healthcare has it's advantages but the real crap being spouted here comes from those who won't even look at other systems to see if things can be done better.Certain parts of the American healthcare system are broken. Other parts work very well.

It's the whole attack the messenger syndrome again. The more vicious the attacks, like those on Moore, the more valid his points would seem to be. To destroy what is good about US healthcare would be stupid, as is thinking it's perfect.

Anyone claiming that the US healthcare system isn't partially flawed is a moron. Anyone who claims wanting to improve the healthcare system makes someone anti-American is just a #&%!$ing idiot.”

“Anyone who thinks that anyone thinks that the US healthcare system isn't flawed is just stacking up strawmen to attack. Some of know it is flawed, but believe it is still better than anything the federal government could build and maintain.”

“It already is to a huge extent hyway - it's already being forced to act as a safety-net for the failings of the system.”

“Remove the profit motive.”

“In America? Everything is about profit. Whether its measured in money, power or ego is irrelevant.”

“Medicaid, like private, will refuse/fight procedures deemed too expensive. Sometimes regardless of need.”

“Our experience with a public health clinic was abyssmal. My wife needed a culposcopy and had to go to the public clinic in Hartford, CT. It was a stinking disaster and we really needed to get a private doctor to sort it all out. The service was atrocious, the diagnosis was fallacious, the treatment recommended was unneeded and the appointments were arbitrary and unscheduled. Thirty people were given the same appointment time. You got there and waited until the line was through. When the time ran out.. so sorry we need to move on... come back at this arbitrary time.

It sucked.”

“Good point Bear... medicaid will refuse all kinds of procedures. In Mass, there are privately managed medicaid contracts and they are some of the very worst.

Public health programs are generally abysmally funded and the quality definitely suffers.”

“Y2, It's not a matter of believing there is no problem. I know there are folks in this country who have crappy coverage, no coverage, and no means to get coverage and that sucks. You'd have to be an ostrich to think that everyone has it peachy and is getting all they need here. It's a matter of being scared to give up something that does work, does cover whatever we need done, and offers coverage everywhere. Why would any sane person be willing to give up private healthcare if they have excellent coverage?! Especially when you get the bills from the hospital with an MRI costing $10,000.00?! I know what my health insurance pays for and there's no way in hell I'd willingly give it up to wait in line for months, or even weeks. Now, if I could figure out a way to share said insurance...
The health care coverage we get is the single biggest benefit of Birch's job. He could make much more money elsewhere.

You can call me selfish but I know people who are paying off an appendectomy, and a c-section. It's of great comfort to know that if I get sick, or need a battery of say, three or four very involved tests in one week (Birch, this week), my health is not going to be compromised because of the expense, or the amount of folks who also need said tests and were in line three months ahead of me. It's ridiculous to think that anyone would be anxious to give up a better system.”

“Got a prayer chain email yesterday about somebody where my wife works. He was in Canada and got ill. He just kept getting worse there in the hospital, no diagnosis - his wife was worried sick - for WEEKS! We were all afraid for his life.

She finally got a shuttle to bring him back to the states. Two days later he's out of the hospital fit as a fiddle.”

“Sass I don't think you're ever going to change the American system to one that's free at the point of delivery - there will always be some sort of insurance involved.

American healthcare's strength is the quality of care it provides to those with good coverage - it's fantastic.

Having said that, the cost of your MRI is just not something you'd have to worry about in the UK. I've had no concerns for any treatment for any member of my family in Britain. Sure there are examples of poor care, but there's 60 million odd people using the system at some level.

My father has just had a medical, a few pre-cancerous skin complaints dealt with, had the full range of tests and has never had to worry about the costs.
My mother received wonderful care in her final months, in the home and in the hospital without the family ever being presented with a huge bill. The treatment she received was both timely and of the highest quality. In the final weeks we had healthcare workers coming to her house three times a day to make sure she was comfortable.

Waiting lists acn be a problem, most people cite the NHS in Britain as an example- but waiting lists there are now much much better. The failings of the NHS in the 1990s came from a failure to invest in the 1980s under Thatcher. This left the UK with a declining rate of health spending in real terms as medical costs were rising. Money has been pumped in and reforms taken place and things have improved.

XL's story earlier is from the daily mail - a very right-wing newspaper which is running these stories to counteract Labour party claims that the NHS has improved. Healthcare is as much of a political football in the UK as it is here.

Like I said, the US delivers fantastic care if you have the right coverage - but the fact that birch has to take a certain job to get decent care is crazy. You're limiting your family income for coverage. In a way Birch's career choices are limited so he can provide healthcare.

America pays far more for healthcare than anyone else - leaves 40-50 million people with poor or no coverage - is starting to drag down businesses, and yet people don't seem to accept any criticism of this.”

“LOOK....I guess Wanderer has the experience...but I have been in ER's at 2AM with patients. I have worked the ER....we had 20 rooms (trauma and acute care) FILLED and three patients IN THE HALL. Of the patients I was assisting with...One ...countem ONE was critical.

The rest....I think 2 were there with problems that required ER treatment and were admitted (private insurance) the others...we had a woman with a kid who had a fever for 3 days. Did she go to the Public Health facility? NO 9am to 5pm was too FREAKING difficult, she would miss her "stories" I guess.

Her comment "It free when I comes here."

Thats the cost...ER Liablity Insurance is screamingly high.

But when the Free Money crowd feels like bringing junior in for an earache...its after 5PM.

How many people here have made the EMS call for CHEST PAINS only to find granny standing there with her shopping bags. She knows she will go downtown, visit the doctor and then they will give her a chit to get a free cab ride home.

I am not saying cut it. But here is a neat idea. When they use the provided services (Health Dept etc) during the day...its free. When they go to the ER we attach their Free Money Check. When they show up in the ER at 2AM. They know the next few Dole checks will be $20 lighter for five checks. If they make a habit of it..they will lose the $20 or whatever every month until they pay off the deductible.

Will it make up the difference..NO. But its like the problem I had with fires in Public Assistance Apartments years ago. We were having the "DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED???" fires...apparently they residents knew if the apartment was dirty or heck if they wanted a NEW HOUSE, just have a fire. I started nailing them with the Deductible for each fire....guess what? My fire losses are 10% of what they were. In the end, we the tax payer still suck up the losses...but we have cut them big time.”

“Yes, there's lot's wrong with the system, I am in no way defending it in its' entirety, BUT to say that people don't have access to healthcare is just plain wrong in most cases.”
wanderer
4:17:12 PM
7/31/07

Y2, if you go back & read my post you'll find I'm not defending the healthcare system. I was trying to make the point that healthcare is available to anyone that needs it. Is it "top-notch" and the very best healthcare? Of course not... but basic services are available to anyone who needs them. The public healthcare system has areas where it is tremendously abused & inefficient, it will take quite awhile to fix all that's wrong with our system.”

“The whole idea that you only should have access to health-care during typical working hours is preposterous.”

“My doctor won't see me at am for a sick call. Actually, sick call at our pedatrician is only in the morning. 8 am to 11 am. After that you get in if you have an appointment or if you don't mind waiting all day for the CHANCE that there is an opening.

If its an emergency then go to ER, if not then go when the hours set aside for walk-in sick call is? Why should a free service have better hours than a paid service?”

“ummm, meant to say My doctor won't see me at 2 am for a check-up. i have to come in during office hours.”

“Why was the appointment schedule I mentioned above so abusive? Because she worked. The employer did not provide health insurance. Contrary to what most people might think, employers are not _LEGALLY required to provide health insurance at all. They do because of the benefit it has for their workers. So here is an employer who does not provide health care coverage. My wife worked for the family income, at low wage at that. The attitude seemed to be... these folks have nothing better to do than stand in endless lines doing endless idiocy for us so that we can take endless coffee breaks. Some of this has changed. But the abuse is not all from the consumer's side.

Please Nore; I am NOT referring to the medical personel in my above rant. I am talking solely about the administrative people.
last edited: 8/02/07 9:37:07 AM”

“Sometimes I think people believe this is Star Trek. They'll always complain until Roddenberry's vision is fulfilled. Healthcare should be smooth (wave a triquarter) and paid for by space bucks, magical money that isn't really money, so it doesn't count.”

“I have to share this experience...

Today was Chemo day for my wife, we are fortunate to have a very god health insurance plan & she is routinely treated in what I have come to believe is an excellent, no, AWESOME, Cancer Center.

We entered the Chemo Traetment area this morning which has about 14 chairs... meaning that they're infusing up to 14 people simultaneously. The staff consists of 5 RN's plus the support personnel. This is adjacent to the Oncologists office area, so the Oncologists come in & out of the infusion area as necessary during the day.

Well, in the chair right next to us was another lady recieving what I believe to be the same treatment as my wife. Her husband was sitting at bottom of her chair as I was also sitting at the foot of my wife's chair, so he & I were sitting next to each other I couldn't help but overhear a lot of their conversation. It started out with her asking him if there was enough cereal left in the box this morning for him to have had some breakfast. :( (Alert... if you interpret all this as I heard it, you may start crying, get your kleenex out!).

He indicated that he did have some breakfast & was OK to stay with her for awhile. Long story short, these people were obviously not well off at all financially, and I believe were there under MediCal insurance coverage (that's the California version of Medicare).

My point is... these folks were getting the same treatmet, in the same Cancer Center, seeing the same Oncologists & getting the same drugs, as my wife. Good for them!

Once again... I am not defending our healthcare system... it sucks in many respects & is incredibly inefficient in a great many ways. BUT, that doesn't mean it's completely broken, and I think we have to be very careful about not "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" when we recommend changes.

Basic healthcare IS available to most people. And, if you are severely ill and the local CHC doesn't provide the services you need you will usually be refered out to someone who does.

This is something we could (and should!) write about here forever... but I would ask / suggest we not take extremist positions & learn FACTS before we start recommending radical changes to the system. It is far too delicate & complex a system to have radical changes implemented in a short time... a lot of careful analysis needs to be done first. Also, individual "war stories" do nothing positive, there are always exceptions to anyt situations, let's look at well-founded statistics before declaring something a massive failure or success, NOT one persons experience in one clinic!
last edited: 8/02/07 3:34:31 PM”

“Also, individual "war stories" do nothing positive, there are always exceptions to anyt situations,
wanderer
6:30:53 PM
8/02/07

I am not trying to be flip. But I find this statement bizarre, coming as it does, at the end of an "indvidual War Story". You may have had a positive experience with this. But this is not even your story. To be frank, I am wondering how much you even know about the people next to you. Perhaps they simply did not have a chance to go to the store. I know people who have made long term friendships by sitting in an infusing chair. My best friend keeps in touch with the people who were next to him week in and week out. But that's not what you relate. Please understand me, my tale of woe is absolutely as valid as your tale of success, perhaps more so because it was myself and ,y wife directly who were part of it. So spare me the "well founded statistics," or produce them yourself.
last edited: 8/02/07 3:59:52 PM”

“My "war story" wasn't intended to be interpreted as such, it was meant as a positive, first-hand example of how the system does sometimes work, it was intended for those here who claim the system is totally broken and have never heard anything but negatives.

Ramblin Rev, I'm sorry your experience wasn't positive, and I can certainly understand why you question the system.

Having said that, I get the impression that you think that your experience was strictly related to the fact that you went to a public clinic. I just re-read your post and need to tell you that everything that happened to your wife could just as easily happen in a private clinic setting. As I said earlier, we are very fortunate to have a very good insurance program, but we still need to put up with the same BS everyone else does. I can regale you with many heart-wrenching stories since my wife was diagnosed, one is a story of having spent 5 hours in an E.R., with her writhing in pain, and me wanting to slit my wrists out of frustration at not being able to do anything about it to help her, before she was seen by an E.R. Doc! It's part of the "system", unfortuantely.

Which leads me to one of my favorite issues... those who "clutter up" and abuse the system because they exercise no self-responsibility in taking care of themselves, smoke, are grossly obese, etc. etc., then end up in the E.R. because it's cheaper which takes away from people who REALLY need an Emergency Room to function as it should... helping those in an emergency condition (XL wrote about this a few posts ago - everyone should read it, it's true!)

The healthcare system is partially broken because it's abused so much by people who don't accept the responsibility to go see a primary care Doc or visit an Urgent Care Center vs. just going to the local hospital E.R. This has been a huge issue for hospitals for years... they are supposed to provide E.R. services, NOT Primary CAre services, yet so many people use the E.R.as their Primary Care center when they have a cough, etc., that the E.R. then doesn't function for those who really need it.

I could go on & on, but will leave it here for the time being. And Rev, if you want any stats, just let me know which ones you're interested in & I'll post them here for all.
last edited: 8/02/07 4:19:24 PM”

“My "war story" wasn't intended to be presented as such, it was meant as a positive, first-hand example of how the system does sometimes work, it was intended for those here who claim the system is totally broken and have never heard anything but negatives.

So we can pick and choose what constitutes a "War Story" That is very convenient. Congrats... you win the Political Correctness award. Yes I know it could have happened at a private clinic. But it didn't. Furthermore, I answered in the context of a request for experiences in a public clinic. So my experience is absolutely valid in context and not simply crying in my beer.

_I_ have been refused medical treatment. More times than once. That is a personal statement as well founded a statisic as I can come up with. Would you like to challenge it's validity? My wife has been denied medical treatment, more times than once. Would you care to challenge that validity. I can not keep track of the people I have served in a pastoral capacity who have been denied medical treatment. Is that well founded enough for you? You don't even know the name of the people next to you whose conversation you evesdropped on.

I apologize for my tone. Your sanctimonious attitude truly offends me. I should be able to control my response but the impression I have is that you have no concept whatever of living without health insurance. I mean none at all. Zippo. nada. squat. Walk in the shoes you profess to resent before you get too vocal about their plight.

If you want my response to the problem, I'll give it to you. In all seriousness, I believe we should dismantle the entire health care system. Remove all insurance benefits. If nothing else, that would make the well to do have to make the same choices as those who have little. It would also mean the corporations which drive the market prices would have to adjust their pricing if they wanted to stay in business.

Perhaps it is time for me to bow out of this conversation.”

“Sorry you've had problems Rev, but unfortunately everyone has, whether they have "health insurance" or not! The system is broken, I have always said that. The answer isn't to shut down something that works for hundreds of millions of people... the answer lies in modifying the system at a pace that doesn't put those hundreds of millions at risk and fixes it for those for who it doesn't currently work.
last edited: 8/02/07 5:22:50 PM”

“Forgive me for my recent responses. They have been unseemly and ungracious. I apologize to you wanderer as well as to others who have been reading this.

I do not think the system works for anyone. I think it is irretrievably broken and the only model that will restore it is to go back to a pre-insurance benefits model. Straight fee for service. There are other models out there based upon this concept. It was traditionally the way the issue was handled in years gone by. In any event, I have said my piece.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled disagreements.”

“The system works for many in the general patient population, Rev, but the biggest (long-term) concern we should all have is that it doesn't work for Primary Care Doc's. That's a big issue because fewer & fewer people are going into Primary Care Medicine, which is translating into a very severe shortage in that area of medicine. So, whether you are visiting private-practice Doc's or Public Service Doc's, the reality is you may have more & more difficulty finding a practioner who is accepting new patients!

THAT IS THE BIGGEST IMMEDIATE CONCERN ISSUE!

This is serious... doesn't matter if you're a private-practice or a public-health clinic, if there aren't any Promary Care Doc's around to hire it doesn't matter!”

“I do not ask that you agree with me. But you will not convince me otherwise. I use the system as it is because it is available. But does it work? Not in my opinion. Will it work? Not in my opinion. Is a band-aid approach the way to go? Not in my opinion. And opinions are like noses, most everybody has one. You are entitled to your own.”

“Rev, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm only trying to tell you what I know of the system.

You are in the minority when you say the system doesn't work for you. I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't fix it, all I'm ssuggesting is that maybe we shouldn't tear it down so it works for NOBODY, but rather, let's fix the existing system step-by-step so we can continue to provide services to the hundreds of millions that IT DOES serve right now while we modify it to serve everyone who ISN'T getting the healthcare they need!
last edited: 8/02/07 6:32:54 PM”

“good luck.....”

“Thanks... the "Good Luck" will benefit everyone, I am working on an internal level to change what I can.

And, by the way, the current system also doesn't work in many areas for those of us who are fortunate enough to have a good insurance plan... I still battle with them (the insurance companys) every single day, but at least we usually don't have to worry about getting core services.

We're probably more on the same page than you might realize!”

“I am working on an internal level to change what I can....

I do not doubt your integrity, nor your desire to have things be different. So here is my challenge to you. If you choose to accept it.

Most people who try to do things "internally" are working with in the "box" that exists. My challenge to you is.... look outside the box.


Pffffft... boom (MI sounds for self-destructing challenges.)”

“Most people who try to do things "internally" are working with in the "box" that exists. My challenge to you is.... look outside the box.

Ramblinrev
6:42:05 PM
8/02/07



And my challenge to you Rev:

Stop "Generalizing" and trying to throw me into some pre-concieved pot. I believe in self-responsibility, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in taking care of those who need some assistance.

Also, please stop "Generalizing" and assuming I don't know the real issues out there! I've already shared that my wife is a cancer patient, so therefore I would "assume" you know that I'm faced with dealing with "the system" every day just as anyone else is... how could you possibly think I would not know what "in the box" vs. "ouside the box" thinking is all about?

AND... I am trying to do what I can to change the system from within because I have connections within! I work in the healthcare industry.. so therefore have some access to resources most people don't. I would think / hope that you'd help me, not critisize me, for trying to fix the system!

I haven't gone here yet for a couple reasons... but just so you know,
(1) my wife is terminal, we're hoping for the best, of course, but what she's dignosed with means she's not going to be here in the not-too-distant future.
(2) My son, only age 20, has some serious healthcare issues we're still trying to completely / accurately identify.

Point being, I am, VERY sensitive to every issue within healthcare, as healthcare is overwhelmingly the # 1 issue in my family these days!”

“Very sorry to hear about your wife and son wanderer. I'll pray for them tonight.

Rev - you're gonna have to back away slowly dude, he pulled out the "c" card.”

“I am also dealing with life limiting illnesses and diseases. So we share that understanding. I also work in the "helping professions" so we can share that perspective. What we differ on is the solutions. I also have children who are in the process of undergoing health issues that are not fully explained. So "c" card or not, Which incidentally looms in our not so distant future, I have said what I have to say. And as far as generalizing goes, I have seen nothing but. And my challenge remains. In all due respect.”

“Rev, once again, I will suggest that you & I probably want the same things... FIX the healthcare system!

All my best to you & yours... I'm sorry that healthcare delivery is somtimes a controversial issue... it shouldn't be!”

“Sarge, thanks for your kind comments / prayers. I will remember them always!”

“wanderer... you are correct. Thank you for your concern and I share yours. I am quite sure that were we face to face we would come to understand each other better. My perspective is based solidly on my faith. I will not presume to make an assessment of your faith. But perhaps that explains where our boxes might be different.

My prayers are for your wife and son.”

“WAHAHAHAHAHA.....

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1939428.ece?service=print


OOPS...Libbies take it again...I guess the whole "Free Money Medicine" thing is really falling apart. Just like the Conservatives have been telling you for years.”

“OH DEAR.....

Problem you a LIBERAL Minister of Parliment in Canada you have breast cancer....you acccess the INCREDIBLE GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM THAT IS (According to Michael Moore (food)) the greatest in the world////

and you recieve your treatment in....


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070914/belinda_Stronach_070914/20070914?hub=Health”

“http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/03/bush.veto/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush on Wednesday vetoed legislation expanding a children's health insurance program by $35 billion over five years.

I wonder how much Bush got from Big Insurance and Big Medicine to sell his soul on this issue?”

“The one that considers children to be the ages of 0-22 and that allow parents to bring home up to $86,000 a year and still get benefits? The one that would enable illegal immigrants to the program? That one? Yeah, can't imagine why that one went down in flames?

"I believe in private medicine, not the federal government running the health care system. I do want Republicans and Democrats to come together to support a bill that focuses on the poorer children," the president said, adding the government's policy should be to help people find private insurance.

Phucking bastard! Making people find their own way like this? Unbelievable!
last edited: 10/03/07 3:03:31 PM”

“Skeeriest Lameduck ever.

Carelast just decided I didn't need my anti-nausea med Anzemet. I found out by trying to refill my 'script. The pharmacist showed me the price tag if I chose to refill: $350 for 4 pills. My co-pay used to be $35 for 4.

I had to call the Nurse so she could find a "better" drug for Carelast - generic Zofran. My cost is $10 for 12.

Both scripts are supposed to last for 4 days. I'm hording the Zofran, though. For fear of what my "health care provider" might decide what is in my best interest next.
last edited: 10/03/07 3:02:05 PM”

“I was in the pharmacy the other day - bunch of elderly folk in front of me - all were paying many hundreds of dollars for medicine - I found it frightening the amounts they were being asked to pay.

No idea what was wrong with them btw.”

“No idea what was wrong with them btw
Y2
1:30:22 PM
10/03/07

So... (1) you have no idea what was wrong with them, (2) what meds they were buying, (3) who they were buying them for, yet you feel compelled to complain and make some statement like that's a reflection of something wrong with the system?

What point, exactly, are you trying to make Y2?
last edited: 10/03/07 4:12:08 PM”

“That no elderly people face large drug bills and they were probably all just getting viagra, or maybe cialis.”

“I didn't think you'd have any kind of reasonable answer, nice that you admit to posting something having no meaning whasoever.

BTW, have you ever heard of MediCare? Your reference to elderly people facing large drug bills leads me to believe that it's one more thing you know nothing about yet feel free to critisize.”

“I bow to your superior knowledge wanderer - despite the fact you've actually failed to say anything.

The point is I was under the impression that due to reforms most of the drugs bills for the elderly were covered - yet here were people paying large sums for drugs.

I was surprised that these people were all paying $200-$500 for drugs - that's all.

So what you're saying is that a government funded scheme is working for the elderly?

I guess my post was one more thing you failed to read and yet felt free to criticize.
last edited: 10/03/07 4:48:14 PM”

““I bow to your superior knowledge wanderer - despite the fact you've actually failed to say anything.

The point is I was under the impression that due to reforms most of the drugs bills for the elderly were covered - yet here were people paying large sums for drugs."


Y2, I can't say anything because I can't respond to a post which has no factual data in it to respond TO! That was my point!!! You have no idea what they were buying, so there's no way you can complain, and of course there's nothing factual for me to respond to!

You don't know that MediCare isn't paying for their drugs... you have no facts whatsoever, all you know is some people were spending a lot of money... you don't know for what, for whom, for how many months worth of product... YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

I'll repeat myself because it's obvious you're a little slow... YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

If I responded with some detail I'd be as guilty as you of ranting about something which I had no information on at all

I can't respond to a lack of facts... I'm responding to you posting something WITH NO INFORMATION suggesting that a system is broken when you don't know what you're talking about. You have no idea what you're complaining about, so therefore I can't respond & correct your mis-information or mis-conception.
last edited: 10/03/07 4:56:41 PM”

“Y2, I can't say anything because I can't respond to a post which has no factual data in it to respond TO!

Just like all his posts. He's not even American.”

“So much anger - you've had a bad day huh wanderer? Relax a little or you could end up needing that insurance yourself you keep on getting all worked up like that.

I guess you didn't read this part? I'll bold it for you.

So what you're saying is that a government funded scheme is working for the elderly?”

“so i guess reformed wanderer is re-reformed?

;-)”