Sicko

“FREE HANDOUTS FOR EVERYBODY!

MONEY GROWS ON TREES!

GETCHA FREE HEALTHCARE HERE!

NO STRINGS ATTACHED!”

“Sarge has repeatedly said Y2 posts personal attacks on every reply he makes.
It's appears to be true.
Not very cricket, chap.
last edited: 10/03/07 5:20:52 PM”

“Only reason I don't take him off ignore b/c he's like watching the self-destruction of the libbies, personified.

POPCORN! PEANUTS!”

“guess you didn't read this part? I'll bold it for you.

So what you're saying is that a government funded scheme is working for the elderly?”
Y2
3:17:07 PM
10/03/07

OK Y2, PAY ATTENTION. What I'm saying is I can't respond because you have no facts to respond to! I have no idea what you're referring to when you say "Gov't funded scheme" Are you referring to MediCare? Millions of people are getting healthcare services from them, how can you say it's not working?

Certainly you're not referrring to the elderly folks you referenced above are you? How can you when you have no idea what they were buying? Maybe this is an alien concept for you, but I like to know what I'm talking about before I make a post... obviously you don't, so that presents a challenge for us to have an intelligent debate!
last edited: 10/03/07 5:14:00 PM”

“Maybe they got rich in our capitalist country and went without insurance and government handouts. Something y2 never would even consider!”

“Wanderer - Please just read what I'm saying and not what your preconceptions about 'wacko libbies' think I'm saying.


1) I'll say again - I was surprised that this group of elderly people had substantial payments to make. Any interpretation beyond this is all yours.

2) I even told you that I didn't know what the meds were for - maybe this should give you a clue that I wasn't trying to infer much from the post - it was just a follow-up to what Bearmagnet posted.

3) I then commented that YOU're saying a Government-funded scheme, medicare IS working for the elderly. This ties in with the first post tonight, relating to President Bush's veto of plans to expand a government-funded scheme to cover the young.

4) What I was saying from this is that why is it wrong to expand government cover you more young people, when in your words here, you seem to say a government-funded scheme is working so well for older people.
last edited: 10/03/07 5:34:45 PM”

“1. You have no idea what they were buying, how could you be surprised?
2. I didn't assume your post was a follow-up to BM's, sorry.
3. It's MediCare, not MediCase. MediCare for the elderly has no relationship at all to the program Bush vetoed.
4. MediCare isn't a "scheme", if you've ever heard of Webster, they define a scheme as "a plan or program of action; especially a crafty or secret one". MediCare may not be as efficient or as all-encompassing as many would like, but it certainly isn't crafty or secret, which is what you're implying.
last edited: 10/03/07 5:33:37 PM”

“1) because they were in a pharmacy and all paid between $226 and $560 for their drugs - I was surprised, as a layman, at how much they were paying. I was genuinely surprised, I don't deal with this stuff much, and have no elderly relatives here.

2) Well fair enough

3) That was a typo - I've corrected it now. I know it wouldn't be the same 'program'. But would still be a government-funded scheme. The reason given for the veto was the expansion of federal involvement in healthcare.

4) Difficult to know where to start here - 'scheme' works just fine in the context which it was used, and in this instance infers no secrecy or craftiness.

Anyway - what did you think of the use of the veto - was he right to use it?
last edited: 10/03/07 5:53:10 PM”

“I have NEWS for America - people making $83,000 per year NEED healthcare relief. The costs of HC have SKYROCKETED under the Bush (free-market-make-as-much-money-as-you-can-before-I-go-corporate-buddy) Plan. Comapnies, can no longer afford to pay thier % of the premiums, so they off the cost on you and your families in the form of higher dedcutibles, higher co-pays, tactics to make working families in which both parents work to kick family coverage for your plan if your spouse has a plan that covers families. The "free market" in this case, and in most cases, is "how can we, the company, fleece you, the moron consumer, as much as legally possible before you raise too much of a stink and throw the people we bought to let us fleece you out of office". The result is these HC and PD companies are RAKING in the dough, and middle class families are paying massive amounts of money (much more than thier measly 'tax cut', I might add) for the astronomical rise in HC costs.

A government program that would cover kids of families making 83K per year would allow the breadwinners of that family to go to single HC coverage, which is roughly 2/5 the cost of family coverage. If both spouses can avoid the high cost of family coverage, and buy single coverages for themselves, the family would save much money, and the kids would be totally covered - a big relief (both financially and morally) for the family.

Bush (and his moron followers) don't give a rats arse about the poor and middle class. All he cares about is the "free market", i.e. corporate profits, which is profitable for him and his cronies, not the vast, vast, vast majority of americans.

Those who support this veto are dispicable, greedy, heartless douchebags, who could care less about the middle class, poor, or anybody but themselves; or, they are too stupid to understand the above.

Bush needs to be impeached immediately. The government needs to be changed immediately. If not, we need a form of government that decreases the risk of EVERYTHING Bush and his legions of greedy moron followers stand for, very soon.”

“May I remind al here on TT, that I make my living negotiating HC benefits for working families making $20-$60 per year. The managers of the companies I deal with were EXCITED about the bill that Bush vetoed, because they knew it would take much of the finacial burden off themselves, and their employees. They know, even with a higher tax increase to cover such a plan, it would be much less $ than the current "free-market" system, which FLEECES every participant in the system for a MASSIVE CORPORATE PROFIT! The profit is so large that our HC system is more expensive than any other industrialized HC system in the world! In the world! This is what the "free-market" gets us - fleecing, fleecing, and more fleecing.
last edited: 10/03/07 6:24:32 PM”

“This was nothing but an attempt to take the next step towards full federal/socialist healthcare.”

“Lastly - the HC system dilemma in our country is a microcosim of the overall dilemma we face as Americans. Do we want to hand over this country to the "free-market"? Or do we want regulation of this so called "free-market" to serve the best interests of the general public. The proporters of the "free-market"'s only interest is making money, that's it, nothing more or less. The propers of the regulated or gov't controlled market have an interest in the people who elected them.”

“OK Nigal, I agree - what is wrong with that?! The "free-market" has failed people in this country making $83K per year. WQhy has it failed these people? Pure and unadultered GREED. The government, even with the inherant waste will be cheaper, more people will be covered, and you will save in taking out the MASSIVE AMOUNTS of PROFITS these companies make. Profits, i might add, that don't trickle down to you, a HC worker for a private company.”

“"working families making $20-$60 per year" - bubba bear


Dang bubba! What third world hellhole do you work in?”

“I feel it incumbent to point out we do not have a free market system. It may be touted as one but in reality it is not. It is a completely bastardized system. A true free market system would not have the regulatory bureaucracy in place that we have. Nor would it have the layers of governmental meddling that is present. It can be argued whether the lack of these controls would be a good thing or a bad thing, but they are not part of a true "free market" economy.”

“I agree, it's almost a cartel out there. If real competition out there it would surely be delivering better value rather than the annual open enrollment 'surprise' of reduced coverage for more money.”

“Wellll now here is a solution....if you are on the Free Money Leech Health Care...lets make em sign an agreement that they cannot sue for Malpractice...(LOL)....WHAAAAA you would have the real cause of rising medical prices (the Lawyers) screaming from the rooftops.

The other thing I would like to see is that if I am paying for their health care they have to follow the proper HEALTH Prevention...yep, no smoking, no drugs, no alchohol, proper weight.

Imagine if we told them "If you want us to invest in your health YOU have to be responsible to us."

OH wait...its not free health care they want its...FREE IRRESPONSIBILITY they want. Yep they want to be able to get the FREE MONEY but not have to DO anything for it.

So in essence parents were saying, "In a choice between say RESPONSIBILITY for the Downloads and say that new set of spinners or the plasma TV....We go for our WANTS.”

“Yeah XL - make those children pay - little bastards. The elderly too - they're just a drain on the free like you! What do you do for a living again?”

“Don't worry Y2 - XL tore up the insurance card from his government sponsored health plan and bought his own coverage on the "free market". He'll refuse to draw on his government pension too. When that doctor screwed up a few years ago and removed his frontal lobe instead of his appendix he didn't sue.

He's a man of principle, doncha know.”

“.....because I hate it when I'm on line at WalMart and there's this billionaire in front of me, and he's trying to buy something for like $250,000 and he's only got $197,000 on him, and he's like all mad and stuff. Then us people behind him get all mad because we just know that our prices on stuff are going to go up because this billionaire dude needs like another $53,000. That pi$$es me off. So once I was like, "Dude, you have a billion dollars, why do you want more?" and he's like all "Well peasant, I want more because I hate poor people."”

“Profits, i might add, that don't trickle down to you, a HC worker for a private company.

Something that has simply turned my whole view of healthcare completely around since coming to work in the healthcare field is effectiveness of a community to provide for themselves through community supported, not for profit health care providers.

On the other end of the stick the job I left working for the government in MR/DD showed me just how bad government run programs are and how badly the workers get screwed.”

“UM We don't have GOVERNMENT health care here (sadly Vile baby its not like on TV) we have a private health care that is considering the very "prevention" ideas I just espoused.

Whats wrong with telling the ADULTS (Vile baby and Y2 thats the people who downloaded the little apprentice leeches) that they must be somehow responsible for the Free Money we are giving them? I mean lets look at other "Government Programs"

Defense -um well if you don't have it....thie conversation would be moot. Imagine if we paid the money we pay for defense and had the performance of say the French Military.

Highways -well we are investing in transportation

Education- we should be investing in creating better more productive citizens but with the Teachers Unions it is more like a HOLDING facility for the incompetent.

Veterans and Social Security are a couple of the programs where we were supposed to pay citizens for their service to our country. Counter to what the libbies think even the person who stayed home and PRODUCED helped the war efforts throughout time.

SO why not Health Care, Download Care etc? Why not put requirements on them. When they drop one (usually without proper prenatal care) we evaluate the person. If the mother cannot be responsible we remove the kid and sterilize the mother. If she can be responsible she signs a contract. If she breeches the contract...HELLO... we take the kids and disarm her.

Mean? no it reality. We are digging a hole that keeps getting deeper and deeper with entitlements to the point where one day your kids (that means your angels too Marky Mark) will be working most of their lives to pay for the people who choose NOT to work. This is the problem, it has Nothing to do with race it has to do with Attitude. There are WAY to many people I see (all ends of the spectrum) who feel like "whats you gonna do for me" is the way to live.”

“So according to a bunch of Republicans, the $83k figure is seriously stretching the truth and could only be applied in a tiny proportion of cases, where a state petitions the President to allow it to happen.”

“Better yet Y2 how bout we just start programs for all things that bother us? Yeah we could have a free drugs and alchohol for people. Heck lets not forget the wierdos among that crowd...how bout a "Free Government Pedophile Program" yeah, you could get kids (since we all know they won't lie) to agree to serve X number of hours for money.

JEEZZE...how far do we have to go to make sure other people are "happy" and don't have to be responsible?”

“Both the right-wingers and the lefties on this thread are incorrect in some of their postings.

Some clarification:
1. I agree the current system needs a lot of work.
2. I know healthcare from multiple perspectives: (1) it's my career & has been forever - it's all I've ever done (2) my wife is a cancer pt undergoing every test/billing scenario imaginable, I know the system from the patient perspective as well (3) I work a lot with Fedarally-funded Community Health Centers which provide services to the underserved communities.

Now for some facts:
1. No one in this country has to go without emergency healthcare. It is illegal to deprive services to a patient in need.

2. Yes, healthcare is extremely expensive (we'll argue why a little later) BUT, when visiting a Community Health Center you are asked only to pay an amout that is calculated based upon your Federal Poverty Level, it's referred to as a "Sliding Fee". Poverty levels are calculated using annual income # number of people in your family, so the family with 6 kids pays less than the family with 2.

3. You can easily find a CHC wherever you are by doing an internet search - go to http://www.ask.hrsa.gov/pc/ and just enter your state / couty / city.

The Government continues to spend a LOT of money funding CHC's, below is a press release just from last month.


September 04, 2007
Federal Government To Award $31M in EHR, Health IT Grants
HHS' Health Resources and Services Administration last week announced that it will provide $31.4 million in grants to help health centers in underserved areas adopt electronic health record systems and other health IT, Healthcare IT News reports.

HRSA Administrator Elizabeth Duke said the grants are critical for achieving President Bush's goal of most U.S. residents having EHRs by 2014 (Manos, Healthcare IT News, 8/27).

The 46 grants, ranging from $77,100 to $1.4 million, include:
• Twenty-five grants, totaling more than $27 million, to fund EHR systems and networks that will link multiple centers receiving grants;
• Eight grants, none larger than $125,000, to help health clinics plan for EHR systems or other types of health IT (Ferris, Government Health IT, 8/27); and
• Thirteen grants, totaling more than $3 million, for the adoption of health IT other than EHRs, such as electronic prescribing, physician order entry systems and health data exchanges.

The grant recipients include health centers in California, Delaware, Florida, Minnesota, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island and Utah (Healthcare IT News, 8/27).

HRSA also will provide $61 million for new health centers in areas with high poverty rates (Zigmond, Modern Healthcare, 8/27).”

“Good Information Wanderer...now do you want to know why many people don't like the Community Health Departments? They have WAIT too long.”

“.now do you want to know why many people don't like the Community Health Departments? They have WAIT too long.”
Fuegofox
10:39:00 AM
10/04/07

I love the way everyone assumes that waiting should not be problem since those in the clinic obviously have nothing else to do wit their time except watch cable TV, drink beer and gamble on on-line websites. It so happens that a good number of those folks do indeed work for a living, hard as that is for some people to believe. To have to sit in a stinking waiting room for hours without having any idea when you will be seen because you arrived on time for your "appointment" is a travesty. But after all... if they really wanted to get ahead they would all have better jobs... lazy people.”

“LOL.....Rev I have actually had a patient with heart problems ask me "How long am I gonna be at the ER?"

Because she didn't want to miss her afternoon "stories" in TV.

here is the kicker....FULL GOVERNMENT RIDE. Yep...she apparently was still getting dinero from her son's AFDC and food stamps. She was ...her eit comes...35 years old. Had heart problems from extensive drug use. She was off Meth (you knew that because she weighed 200lbs + her "living" was playing the Lottery and watching TV.”

“so obviously everyone else is doing the same thing. please stay clear of myself and my wife. Your judgementalism will not be appreciated.”

“Talking is a FULL GOVERNMENY RIDE, Rev.”

“BB does have a point about the 83K yearly earnings.

If my wife and I had kids and made that amount of money, we would be in some seriously rough waters without employer provided health care.

I'm not saying I would feel the government owed me anything, but it would require me to get a second job.

I'm only bringing this up because I got to thinking about the bills that we would be looking at with a couple of kids - extra groceries, diapers, daycare, extra medical expenses, etc. What is daycare now? It's at least $100 a week per kid, right? So, $800 per month minimum, plus the minimum of $800 a month you'd pay in insurance preimiums, copays, etc. That's about a fourth of total pay. Take federal, state, and local taxes into account, there's roughly another fourth. House payment, property taxes, maintnance, etc. another fourth. You're not left with much.”

“A lot of it comes down to the choices we make in our careers. I was making pretty good money as a self contracted (self employed) caregiver for the state but went out and found a job for less money, less hours but with benies.”

“Talking is a FULL GOVERNMENY RIDE, Rev.”
uncliff
12:26:13 PM
10/04/07

Sorry... I don't follow. Maybe I don't need to.”

“trust me rev....its a path that really doesn't exist....”

“Nigal - unfortuantely, there is a herd of lawyers at this very moment, thinking of new creative ways to make you pay more and more and more for HC. The costs keep rising too. In one school district, they had 12 pregnancies in one year. As a result, the schools premiums went up 28%. The premiums for family coverage went from $1,100 p/m to $1,408 p/m in one year. If the employee had to eat that increase, that's $3,696 EXTRA per year.

I hope you keep your levels of insurance, and hopefully, you have a cap on your contribution.”

“The insurance I have through work is awesome. I think it's United Healthcare.

In one school district, they had 12 pregnancies in one year. As a result, the schools premiums went up 28%.

Now I'm not trolling you here or just trying to piss you off but this gets straight to the heart of the matter of social systems. Their rates went up because of 12 people so now everyone else is picking up the increase. Is this fair? Now put that on a national scale.

It simply boggles my mind when we have perfect examples of how government systems work (Medicare, Medicaid, VA) that anyone would want the government to take over all healthcare systems.”

“because they might work better than then most private insurance?

But I don't think most are advocating a complete removal of private health care.”

“because they might work better than then most private insurance?

But we have seen what they do with Medicare. They can't even properly serve the 65 and over sector. Imagine what it'd be like if they did all of the population.”

““because they might work better than then most private insurance?

bearmagnet
1:38:37 PM
10/04/07

Bear, As I mentioned above, I deal with a lot of Community Health Centers in my business.

I am thankful every day of my life that I don't have to deal with a government-run system but am fortunate enough to have private insurance.

There is the possibility that a gov't run system will better treat patients with a chronic disease due to their mandated reporting & reimbursement structure, but for the most part I am very happy to have private insurance.”

“so no system is perfectly "well".”

““so no system is perfectly "well".”
bearmagnet
2:53:56 PM

Bingo, BM! Healthcare is just way too complex for there to be one simple solution. I am easily mis-interpreted when I defend the current system, I don't do that because the current system works well, I only do it because it works far better than any government-run system I have seen (or can imagine)!

Case in point... the VA system, called Vista (not to be confused with Microsoft Vista - there is no relationship) is an incredible piece of #&%!$. They recently had a massive failure that affected healthcare delivery in Northern California - read the excerpt I've posted below, and then tell me you want a government-run system!



October 02, 2007

U.S. House Panel Looks Into EHR Lapse at VA Facilities in California
The House Veterans' Affairs Committee held a hearing last week to examine the recent failure of an electronic health record system used by the Department of Veterans Affairs' Northern California Healthcare System, Modern Healthcare reports.

The Veterans Health Administration's VistA clinical IT system and its Computerized Patient Record System experienced technical difficulties on Aug. 31 that disrupted service for more than eight hours at the 17 care facilities in the Northern California Healthcare System.

Ben Davoren, physician director of clinical informatics at the San Francisco VA Medical Center, testified that the system failure was "the most significant technological threat to patient safety VA has ever had."

The lapse prevented physicians from accessing patients' medical records and caused delays in obtaining medications or scheduling follow-up appointments at the time of discharge.”

“Here is some interesting reading....

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/09/socialized_medicine_is_broken.html”

“If we go with the Socialized Health Care...what are the Canadians going to do for decent health care?”

“hmmm, this pinko organization http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html seems to rank Canada 7 places higher than America's current system - that must be communist propaganda though.”

“Last night FOX News ran a series of video clips just released showing the real hospital conditions the average Cuban has to contend with when admited to a hospital there. Pretty shocking & sad.... certainly quite a bit different from the staged crap that Michael Moron showed.

Made me wonder, when will his libbie fans & admirers realize / admit what a lier he is? The information is all over the place from multiple sources that everything he's ever done has been proven to be full of intentional mis-information!”

“Last night FOX News ran a series of video clips just released showing the real hospital conditions ..... spot the obvious mistake in this sentence ;o)


In all seriousness though.
Isn't infant mortality rate supposed to be a measure of the success of a healthcare system?

http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm

Cuba's a #&%!$ed up country though, I don't think it should be a model for anyone.”

“Y2...if the Canadian system is so freaking incredible...why are they debating a Private system? And WHY pray tell are more and more Canadians coming to the US to be treated for life threatening conditions? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM????”

“I didn't say it was incredible - the review just shows that it's better as a whole than the US system.

You can't leave 40-50 million people without coverage and expect to do well in a comparision with systems which treat the whole population.

As I've said before - if you have the money or at least good insurance - the US system offers what is probably the best care in the world.”

“I guess what I'm saying is that no way should there be an attempt to emulate Cuba - but the question needs to be asked about what is wrong with the US system that Cuba is able to achieve better results in certain areas of healthcare?”

“I was looking for these numbers previously on this thread. (I had seen stats before, but can't find them again.) Just ran across this. I've seen more precise breakdowns of this before. Anyone have the facts?

Basically, many people don't have health insurance because they're young/healthy and don't want to pay a nickel for it (I've fit into that category before), are too rich (self-insured), are illegal aliens, or just simply choose not to take government (tax) handouts.

Even the claim that 47 million Americans are without health insurance is questioned.

"That estimate dramatically overstates the extent of the actual problem," Tanner said.

"To begin with, about 14 million of those people -- almost a third -- are currently eligible for Medicaid, SCHIP, or other government programs and simply haven't signed up for those programs. In addition, about 8 to 10 million of those folks are actually illegal aliens and, of the remainder, a healthy portion has voluntarily gone without it," he added.

In fact, according to Mark Pauly, a professor of health care systems at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School, fully 70 percent of those who don't carry health insurance could afford some kind of coverage without going over their heads into deep financial waters.

...

Robert Moffit, director of the Center for Health Policy Studies at The Heritage Foundation, points out that some people deliberately choose to go without coverage because they know that, by federal law, hospitals must provide a minimum of care regardless of whether a patient can afford to pay for services.

"Under the current law, if you do not buy health insurance, you can walk into an emergency room and get care, run up the bills, and if you can't pay for it, basically the taxpayers will end up paying the health care bills," Moffit said.


http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200710/NAT20071011a.html”