Sicko

“What a great flick! Be sure to go and see it! Privatizing Healthcare was never a good idea.

You even get to see the birth of our privatized healthcare system, and the motivation behind it!”

“LOL6 months for an MRI...yeah buddah ..when was Health Care Public (as in FREE MONEY PUBLIC)? I remember you used to have to pay as you went.

I Love it....so you don't want to be responsible for your health care costs....? LOL...Try England, Canada etc.

Check with Cleveland...their hospitals are making a killing on Canadians who are coming here for treatment....”

“Have you seen the movie Rush?”

“Haven't seen the movie yet, but I can tell you that the current system is badly broken.

And let's not compare our system to another that might also need some work( the Canadian system, as an example), but let's look at the way healthcare should work.

And XL, this is one situation where I beg to differ with the traditional right-wing approach. If someone is dying, in intense pain, let's not give them a hard time about paying for their meds, OK? Just this once, try to take a more humanist approach.”

“WHOA...WHOA....please give me the name of ONE and I mean ONE person who has died becuase they did not get treatment??? In the US that is.

Now I can give you a list of people in ENGLAND or Canada who have passed due to lack of treatment.

I wonder how much the present Medicare or Medicaid bill would be like if we took the illegals out of it?

Wanderer....do you work in emergency services? NO? well let me tell you. A really neat game the 'free money" crowd plays. You get a call to MS A...for 'chest Pains" when you show up she is STANDING On the front porch with her shopping bags. You take her to the hospital. When you drop her hse gets BETTA they give her a chit for a cab home. Then she goes shopping, grabs a cab and goes home.

Now there is also the "emergency room sickness" it involves the family who waits until Midnight to take the youngun into the ER for treatment of a fever. NOT AN EMERGENCY. But it burns your tax money to pay for it. Now she could go to the Public Clinic in the day...but that would not be the time she done wants to go.

No you want to cut expenses....start with this. If a patient is a "public care" patient put a SHORT cap on the Malpractice Lawsuit claims. Want to know how many MILLIONS we pay to a patient who goes to the ER gets treated. Then they refuse to follow the doctor's directions and end up sick...then sue the hospital.

Another cut we could get is the cyclical patient. They refuse to take care of their health (smoke, poor personal health) but we get to pay for their poor decisions?


How bout we look at WHY we have these public bills, look at WHERE the bleeding is, then we can start to talk about money.”

“The main problem is not the health care system, but the health care finance/payment system.”

“XL, I've been in HealthCare for 30+ years, I know just a little about the system.

This discussion isn't about who's abusing the system, we all know that there will always be people who will take advantage of whatever they can!

It's about a system that is so convoluted, complex & ill-designed that it ALLOWS so many to profit from abusing it!

There are far too many people making far too much and not providing any service of value to the delivery of healthcare to justify them recieving those dollars! Their only contribution is to make the system more complex. :( THAT, to me, is what this is all about... streamlining the system so that the majority of dollars spent actually go to delivering healthcare, NOT to people complicating the system & not adding anything of value!

And... I AM a "right-winger" fiscally, as all the lefties here who I've pi$$ed off over the years will tell you, but I must tell you that, from a business perspective, healthcare is totally out of control.

I believe in people who contribute to a system being able to make $$ for their contributions! The problem w healthcare is that WAAAYYY too many people do nothing to contribute, they just add costs & complexity to an already over-burdened system.

They don't deserve to make $$, they aren't making a positive contribution!”

““WHOA...WHOA....please give me the name of ONE and I mean ONE person who has died becuase they did not get treatment??? In the US that is."

How about that woman in Calif. who died in the ER recently because her family couldn't get anyone in the ER to help her even after her family called 911 from the ER.”

“Those who make the claim that "Healthcare isn't refused to anyone in the US" and that therefore "No-one dies from lack of healthcare" don't really know anything about healthcare!

Chronic Diseases (Diabetes, Cardiovascular diseases, Asthma, etc., etc. etc) are in great part the major healthcare issues we face... they all mandate on-going care, much of it preventative, and that all costs $$. By the time those patients have arrived at the E.R., the system has failed them!

It's actually a joke (a perverted one!) for somone to claim that "since they recieve E.R. services our system works! HAHAHAHAHAHA. They're there & dying because the system DOESN'T WORK!”

“...Others tell more heartwrenching stories of loved ones lost because their health insurance would not approve their surgery or chemotherapy. Some whistleblowers support these allegations.

One of them is Dr. Linda Peeno, former medical reviewer at Humana. “In the spring of 1987 as a physician, I denied a man a necessary operation that would have saved his life and thus caused his death,” testifies Peeno. “In fact what I did was saved the company half a million dollars. For this."

http://www.voanews.com/english/AmericanLife/2007-06-29-voa53.cfm
last edited: 6/29/07 7:07:25 PM”

“Part of it folks is called "Cover Your Butt" I went to the eye doc for a consult on the double vision. He diagnosed "3rd Nerve Palsy". He said, particularly with those with diabetes they usually hang loose and let it clear up by itself. No big deal. They don't know why it happens but... it goes away and everything is fine. No problem. No chance of a stroke.

My GP got wind of the issue. The same GP office which told me to call the Ophthalmologist, summoned me into the office and demanded an MRI because he did not believe the specialist. Guess what. No stroke. Duh. But the GP looked at me two weeks later and said, "I feel better knowing you didn't have a stroke." HUH? Oh I did have a sinus infection. I could have told him that. I have an obstructed airway. My sinuses never clear out or clear up.

Why did I agree to the MRI? Because it was the path of least resistance. Would I have left the office upset or outraged if the GP had said, ok keep me posted? not in the least. Did I need the MRI for my own peace? Not at all. But the doc covered his butt.”

“Rev: To a certain extent it is "cover your butt" since we live in such a litiguous society (which drives up the cost of EVERYTHING!).... however...there's another part of the process here you should be aware of.

"My GP got wind of the issue."
No, Your GP didn't just "get wind of the issue" he wrote a referral for you to go see an Ophthalmologist because s/he wanted a "specialists" assessment... then... the Ophthalmologist sent back a summary of his findings to your GP - (that's what he's SUPPOSED to do)! So your GP then decided, to be safe & cover all bases (not just cover his butt), that you should have an MRI.

That's why you have a GP... to look at the "overall big picture" & decide what is best for you... your GP knows a lot more about your overall health than any individual Specialist would... such as the Ophthalmologuist in this case... so it is the GP's responsibility to then determine what the best "next steps" should be.

"The same GP office which told me to call the Ophthalmologist, summoned me into the office and demanded an MRI because he did not believe the specialist"

No, not necessarily because he "didn't believe the Ophthalmologist", but because he had more info than the Ophthalmologist, or had some reason to believe there might be other considerations! Your GP has your history, all your lab results, etc., etc., etc., and your Ophthalmologist doesn't look at all that background info.

Sounds to me like you're getting good care from your GP who wants to make sure nothing is missed... an Ophthalmologist is only looking at a very small part of your overall health...

IT'S YOUR GP'S JOB TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE!

In your case, it sounds like he is - good for you!
last edited: 6/29/07 8:47:52 PM”

“The system is damaged ( I agree) but I do not agree in turning over 1/7th of the national GNP to NON Responsive Government Cogs who will make worse decisions than the insurance guys doing it today.

Medicaid now only pays something like 8 dollars for DENTAL work...why/ They were going broke covering the TAKERS.

So the question is, how do we protect the producers but still provide for the Needy.

#1 We control skyrocketing malpractice. In the California Case...did you catch the other article in So California where Illegals have burned so many hospitals by seeking services and disappearing that ERs are closing left and right.

#2. We control the "minor claims" I am talking the Dweeb who refuses to take proper protective measures who disobeys the doctors but still demands we be RESPONSIBLE for them. I am sorry but I see hundreds of Leeches on society who do everything the Doctors tell them not to. But demand we protect them.

#3. Find a way to put competition in the marketplace. Do you think for one FREAKING second if Cell phone service had been GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED we would have the advances we do today and the dropping prices? HELL NO you would still have a bag phone that weighed five pounds and had crappy service.

#4 we need to find a way to make sure that we do not have to "share the pain" to make the have nots feel better.”

“Could you please comment on my answer to your demand!
last edited: 6/29/07 9:00:07 PM”

“I gotta go with the Rev here. I was told last week that I was having the "perfect pregnancy" and then all of a sudden was signed up for two more ultrasounds, absolutely needlessly! I've seen so many different docs at this practice, no one person knows my health history.

Was the doc really looking out for my best health interests? I don't think so. I think it was a bunch of excuses to send me for more tests, to get more money out of my insurance. Hell, the fuss they made over my heart murmur, I"m suprised they didn't send me for an EKG (though I had one a few years ago).

Needless to say, between the useless tests that I've had and the poor "bedside manner" this practice had, we went to a new practice this week (baby is due in 9 weeks!!!). I've had it with those freaking "overcautious" docs.

My problem is that pregnancy isn't a disease, and I was being treated as if I had a disease.

By the way, thank GOD for midwives and nurse practioners. They are people who will actually talk to you as if you were an intelligent human being. I've had it with doctors lately, and the disrespect and lack of care (non-medical) I've had with them.

*stepping off soapbox*”

“Did somebodyy say we need to "streamline" by giving control to tge government?

That's rich! =)”

“No, not necessarily because he "didn't believe the Ophthalmologist", but because he had more info than the Ophthalmologist, or had some reason to believe there might be other considerations! Your GP has your history, all your lab results, etc., etc., etc., and your Ophthalmologist doesn't look at all that background info.

wanderer
9:44:19 PM
6/29/07

Sorry wanderer.... he was very specific. The specialist was "wrong".”

“We need someone we can trust to run our health care.

FEMA”

“Interesting article given the subject of this thread.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html”

“I haven't seen it so I can't comment on the movie. I won't see it either because I've seen how Moore makes his movies and he's so untruthful it borders on being non informative too. And yes I have to repost Fred Thompson pwning Moore:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=995338300996240609&q=fred+thompson&total=897&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

We have the best healthcare on the planet. Bar none. I think part of the problem is non competition. Ask your doctor how much a procedure costs. I bet he doesn't even know. We go to a doctor and don't even ask about costs. As him/her if you can see a price list for procedures before you choose them as a doctor and see the look on their face.

When insurance is paying no one gives a crap.”

“The United States has the only for profit healthcare system in the industrialized world.

There is a point in the movie that clearly and undeniably illustrates how our country went to a private system in 1971. The reason we went to it was not for the betterment of the people, but for the betterment of the corporation.”

“There is a point in the movie that clearly and undeniably illustrates

Having seen some of Moore's other films I personally do not trust him to present anything as truth. Did he cover why Castro, when it came to his own health, didn't go to a Cuban doctor and had a Spaniard flown in and millions of dollars of medical equipment flown in to preform his operation?

The federal government can't do anything effectively or efficiently. Do you really want the feds running something as important as healthcare? That's just crazy.”

“There's too many people in the world. I say we eliminate healthcare altogether.”

“Procedures to solve your first sentence problem would be removed by the latter.”

“““WHOA...WHOA....please give me the name of ONE and I mean ONE person who has died becuase they did not get treatment??? In the US that is."

How about that woman in Calif. who died in the ER recently because her family couldn't get anyone in the ER to help her even after her family called 911 from the ER.”yotaman
7:43:10 PM
6/29/07

Piece of cake:

For Want of a Dentist
Pr. George's Boy Dies After Bacteria From Tooth Spread to Brain

By Mary Otto
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 28, 2007; B01

Twelve-year-old Deamonte Driver died of a toothache Sunday.

A routine, $80 tooth extraction might have saved him.

If his mother had been insured.

If his family had not lost its Medicaid.

If Medicaid dentists weren't so hard to find.

If his mother hadn't been focused on getting a dentist for his brother, who had six rotted teeth.

By the time Deamonte's own aching tooth got any attention, the bacteria from the abscess had spread to his brain, doctors said. After two operations and more than six weeks of hospital care, the Prince George's County boy died.

Deamonte's death and the ultimate cost of his care, which could total more than $250,000, underscore an often-overlooked concern in the debate over universal health coverage: dental care.

Some poor children have no dental coverage at all. Others travel three hours to find a dentist willing to take Medicaid patients and accept the incumbent paperwork. And some, including Deamonte's brother, get in for a tooth cleaning but have trouble securing an oral surgeon to fix deeper problems.

More:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/27/AR2007022702116_pf.html”

“If his mother hadn't been focused on getting a dentist for his brother, who had six rotted teeth.

Clearly it's the mother's fault! (facetious font)”

“Hi bear!”

“6 rotted teeth, on a 10 years old?!?

Grab that mother and pull ALL her teeth without anaesthetic. Maybe it will teach her a lesson that she is responsible for her childrens poor health!”

“Kaiser Permanente is the largest HMO in the country. Donna Keys was fully insured by them. Her 18 moth old caught a fever of over 104. She called 911, and the ambulance took her to the closest hospital. The hospital contacted Kaiser, which declined to cover the tests or drugs needed. She would need to go to a Kaiser Network hospital. Donna begged the hospital to treat her anyway, since time seemed so short. She was escorted out. Her child had a seizure and went into cardiac arrest. Shortly after getting to Kaiser, she passed away.








The United States is #37th on the ranking of world health care systems. Cuba is #39th.
last edited: 6/30/07 2:52:38 PM”

“Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba

Details:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_systems.html
last edited: 6/30/07 3:01:18 PM”

“is more big brother government thebest solution?”

“Never! Competition is!”

“Well, less (gov't) isn't working.

I just think a health care system SHOULD NOT be based on profit and what's best for the shareholders. The companies are mandated by law to their shareholders NOT the patients!”

“Hey, SS!

Euro - you ever live in a US city? It's a "little" different from Switzerland. In some areas it's more like the third world, unfortunately.”

“Get the federal government completely out all things except; interstate and international trade and guarding the citizens of america and its' lands within its' borders. Let the states worry about what they want to do about being; commies,socialist,capitalist,nazis,fascist or any 'ist' or 'ism' that rings their bell.”

“start charging smokers for the added dead weight they add to the cost of health care, tens and tens of BILLIONS. Think of what could be done if that money wasnt wasted? You could lower taxes (something for the right) and help out the uninsured (something for the left) and still send everyone to Disney annually.

Make health ins setup like car ins, you pay for what you do. You wanna drink everyday, pay more. Your laziness and lack of will to quit shouldnt cost me. Nor should your desire to drive a corvette or ride a motorcycle without a helmet. You have the right to do ANYTHING to your body you want, but grow up and pay for your choices, you made em.”

“But that would require, like, self responsibility and stuff. Besides it'd be completely anti-socialist too. We can't that messing things up.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”

“Smokers are supposed to die young- not be a burden. Give um smokes for free and get rid them suckas. The tax payers should buy all baby boomers a cheap motorcycle ,no helmit and free drugs and alcohol.And, for the devils sake don't go put'm on life support when they crash.”

“start charging smokers for the added dead weight they add to the cost of health care

And start charging drinkers for liver transplants?”

“Oh where oh where can he be???

He's buried his head in the sand since there were many examples of his demand so he had to leave since he couldn't come back with his BS.

Done with this thread.”

“Uncliff, I hate to tell you, but your theory may seem nice, but would probably only cause hikes in health care rates - - getting younger people sicker or injured faster would cause the health care industry just as much for the same problems - - just earlier in their life. And when they are dying and bed bound - - the family won't be able to 'let go' because 'they are so young." So essentially we would be paying for them to lay in bed as a vegetable for years on end... that gets expensive. Where I work, it is $3000 a day just to be in a room with a vent on a long term care floor - - that includes NOTHING else expense wise. It's crazy.”

“XL went to England this weekend, somethinbout fires.

Boneyhunches, you're right , but my mumbling was just to make all baby boomers feel guilty. They are a fiscal thorn in the side of health helpless America.”

“Euro - you ever live in a US city? It's a "little" different from Switzerland. In some areas it's more like the third world, unfortunately.”
bearmagnet

funny you're asking this, bearmagnet. Just a week ago I interviewed a friend about the US social and health care system, because I was offered a position in the US. It all sounded very reasonable to me. Maybe not as good as what I have here in Switzerland, but for sure not worse from what I had in England.

If I would be given the option to go to the US for one or two years and guaranteed that I can return to the save haven of Switzerland after that, I would choose the adventure, take my chances with the US health care system and start packing my bags today :-)
If I could go to the US, but not knowing if I could return to Switzerland...uhm...I don't know? Kind of hard decision, indeed...not only because of the health care system though.
last edited: 7/01/07 2:41:35 AM”

““XL went to England this weekend, somethinbout fires."
uncliff

mmmm...does anybody know where in England XL is? Two days ago in London they discovered two or three car bombs, designed to cause mass murder, as they were placed in busy shopping streets. They found them befor they went of. Yesterday Glasgow airport was attacked. Parts of the airport went off in flames, as a car, loaded with fuel, was driven into the front building. The airport was completly shut down.”

“And start charging drinkers for liver transplants?”
bearmagnet

You wanna drink everyday, pay more.”

“You wanna drink everyday, pay more.”
birch
8:27:33 AM
7/01/07

How about every other day?

What about people that eat meat 3x/day?

What about people that "choose" to live in cities. Charge 'em more for lung issues?”

“you could go to that extreme BM, but if we take everything that far nothing gets done. Car insurance is an easy model to follow. Smoking is an undeniable burden, its easily remedied, its not necessary in any amount ever. I smoked 11 years and understand that this puts me at a higher risk, so be it. I would understand a higher premium and would pay it.

My health is my responsiblity. No yours, not an ins company. When it comes out of the pocket book people change when its free no one cares.”

“I understand birch but I just think its a dangerous precidence to set.

I understand birch but I just think its a dangerous precedence to set.

And I'm not sure car insurance is a correct analogy. Driving is a privilege. To be treated equally is a right. Otherwise, you have facilities saying you don't deserve an organic transplant, chemo, what not.”

“Again , it should certainly not be a federal problem. By moving government further from the tax payer into a huge mess of DC pigs, look what you've recieved in return- total chaos. The corps have taken over what the churches and other crap groups haven't. Take the power back to your state,county and city where it belongs.”

“Of course it's a dangerous precedence to make - where do you draw the line?

You start giving insurance companies too much leeway on exclusions and you'll only insure the healthy.

Family member with diabetes - out you go - daughter was sick at birth - she'll have to pay for that for the rest of her life.

For someone who has experienced two healthcare systems then I'd say the US system is better if you have decent insurance.

You get sick with the right coverage then you go to a shiny new hospital that's staffed by great doctors and a whole bunch of nurses. Everything is new and disposable, cost is not an object. You'll probably even get your own room and a TV to watch. The again it should be great, you're paying more for it than anyone else is.

In the UK everything is not as shiney and new and much is generally used and abused - but everyone gets the medical attention they need - most of it up with the best in the world. Sure there were some issues and some scare stories, but these were often just a few against the millions being treated.

The UK healthcare system got into a mess because of a failure to invest during the 1980s, the Thatcher years, most of the past 10-15 year has been spend pouring money in to make up the difference. Things now are much better, though like any healthcare system,. they are not perfect.”