Why Civilian "Assault Rifle" Ownership i s Necessar

“A rifle is not easier to aim than a shotgun. Especially at night in a dark house.”

“I always answer my door with bear spray and a spoon.”

“78-year-old Harry Whittington got a face full of bird shot, and not only did it not kill him, he forgave the guy who shot him. Bird shot is not a self defense load.

Assault rifles are used many more times in self defense in the United States each year than they are used illegally by criminals. Assault rifle do make excellent self defense weapons. Afterall, do not police SWAT teams use them.”

“I'd be highly surprised if Bacpac reared his ugly head in this thread again. I don't think he has the integrity to admit he's wrong. If he still tries to pretend he knows what he's talking about, I have a lot more sources confirming that birdshot isn't good for self defense. So he's screwed no matter what.

I bet he thinks you don't even have to aim a shotgun because the shot expands so much you can't miss. What a bafoon.”
Mutt
8:09:04 PM
7/06/07

I like that Mutt spends so much energy thinking about me.

The issue is not only about the lethality of a particular weapon. When you start shooting inside your apartment there are other factors to consider. Mutt is correct, a rifle is more lethal than a shotgun with bird shot, but there are obvious disadvantages if you miss your intended target.

At 10 feet #6 bird shot can put a four inch wide six inch deep hole in a human. That would be a deal breaker with most intruders. With the minimal spread at this distance the margin of available error is four inches versus a quarter inch for a rifle.

The difference of penetration of the missed shot seems to be as or more important to me. I suppose Mutt can do the research on how much further a rifle will penetrate sheet rock than bird shot, but from personal experience I know the difference is significant. Is killing an innocent person an equal trade off for saving yourself?

If the measure of effectiveness includes more than simply lethality, I think it is reasonable to state a shotgun with #6 pellets is a better home defense weapon.

Personally I rely on a .38 caliber revolver, because I am an expert marksman and my neighbors aren't close enough to be a concern.”

“Careful with the hat meangreen:


Basalt police are looking for a person of interest in a 7-Eleven shooting that may be tied to the clerk's use of a U.S. Border Patrol baseball cap.
Basalt Police Chief Keith Ikeda said five shots were fired into the convenience store on Two Rivers Road and Basalt Avenue shortly after 11 p.m. on June 26.

An hour and a half before the shooting, two men approached the store clerk and said, "Hey, where's your hat?"

The 54-year-old clerk and the men began to argue.

"The verbal altercation was regarding a baseball cap that the clerk occasionally wears in public," Ikeda said.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5612095,00.html”

“mighty limited info on that story, V.
At risk of being slammed for prejudice, if the photo shown is of one of the suspects, he looks like he may be hispanic, and a border patrol hat may have been the source of conflict with him. Entirely speculation.

I don't preach guns in my office, though I do firmly believe in the second amendment. I keep most of my opinions to my self at work, though here I have been a little more vocal lately.”

“Prosecutor makes a good point. Most of the guns criminals are using are junk crap. They have been stolen, sold, stolen, stashed, traded, and generally abused. The person owning a truely high quality assault rifle is usually not going to be a criminal because they are very expensive. Someone with the kind of money it takes to purchase one is not usually the type of person who needs to steal to make a living.”

“A good thief could have your gun in a heart beat. The crooks we know are the ones that get caught.”

“True but there are very few good thieves, and a great many poor ones that are nothing more than losers with a disregard for the law, and no morals.”

“This is the hat I wear the most. Birch got it for me...

”

“didn't he have the "Proud to be an infidel bumper sticker"?”

“The only bumper sticker I know he has is the "Honk if you love bacon ring and croissants too!" bumper sticker. LOL!”

“http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

This discussion by the FBI discounts a lot of hype about handgun "knockdown" power, and concludes that large bore and depth of penetration (at least 12 inches, (30cm)) are the only criteria for stopping action.

And that stopping is anything but immediate, the minimum is 15 seconds, plenty of time for them to shoot back, or cover 20ft and hit you with a baseball bat.

The only thing missing from this discussion is ease of use, or speed of subsequent shots, it does obliquely reference the number of shots fired by law enforcement that miss completely. That is not understood by the media, the panic, stress, unexpected movement by the target, reactive movement by the officer to find cover, all contribute to a very low percentage of hits.

The shot person in shock with adrenaline high not knowing they have been hit, or how bad, leads to the multiple shots in such incidents.

The defender shoots, the person is still a threat, shoot again, but a big handgun has a lot of recoil and this affects shot placement and speed of second shot.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
This site has tests of penetration on house walls.

This page test shotguns, and dismisses bird shot as being effective
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Any weapon will only be effective is it is
1. Readily available
2. Very familiar, you are able to use it automatically under stress.
3. You are psychologically able to use it without hesitation.

I have had a permit to carry, and did carry. It takes a lot of thought about when to get it out, and there is never a question about use, if it is time to get it, then you are already past the decision to use.
I was lucky, never had to use. But an awful lot of training and practice to be ready, and a great relief when I no longer needed to carry.”

“nice link manuka, I am opting for the 45.70 I liked the results...

Looks like I need some frangible 5.56mm.”

“BEEP! BEEP! BIRCH! BEEP, F'N BEEP! LOL!”

“Ha Ha, Manuka shoots Bacpac down in flames! I bet he still can't admit he's just plain flat wrong.

Edit: I wasn't going to link to Ol' Painless's box of truth, because he's a fundamentalist christian schmuck.
last edited: 7/07/07 3:39:55 PM”

“Any kind of gun's gotta be better than the kids watching mommy get gang banged by a bunch of thugs. I'd settle for a .22 if it's that or nothing.”

“I've had a great idea - why don't you boys go off and form your own militia.

1) You LOVE LOVE LOVE your toy..... I mean guns.
2) You like running about in the wilderness.
3) Most of you seem to think the boys in Washington want to take your guns away.
4) Many of you seem to fear for your own safety in the places you live now.
5) You want 'less government'.
6) You all claim to be successful individuals who don't want rely on the government in times of crisis.
7) You all seem like resourceful independent types, several hunt and could supplement the military rations.
8) You can choose who you let in to your compound - no sily libbies, or girls, allowed.
9) You can wear whatever hats, t-shirts, pants (or not) you like. You can even make it a naked militia.
10) You will 'live' the constitution, forming your won 'well organized' TT militia.
11) You can site it on top of a mountain so you can watch for the hated UN choppers coming to get you.
12) You'll be able to write your own sitcoms afterwards, as long as you don't go all Jonestown on us - then it'll be a documentary - we'll get Michael Moore to make the movie, with Al Gore narrating.

You know it'll be great - you can all give yourselves ranks, like in the army and stuff.

But first you need choose your leader - let the voting begin. No squabbling now.

You can all thank me later.

SWT.”

“Jerry Reed made that movie great! LOL!”

“Y2, What makes you think we aren't members of a militia?

Colonel bacpac”

“LOL - nope, bacpac doesn't possess the strength of character to admit he's wrong, in the face of overwhelming evidence.

What a dishonerable little turd.

Oh and *I'm* colonel. Vote from the rooftops!”

“I find it incredible that you think a shotgun blast from ten feet is not an adequate defense. What do you say to people who rely on a baseball bat? I don't always keep a loaded weapon handy anyway. I guess that makes me even more wrong.”

“A shotgun blast from ten feet is more than enough for an adequate defense with 00 buck (or similar). It certainly beats confronting a threat with only a pistol, marksman or not.

What I find incredible is that you think you know better than a variety of experts who've performed controlled studies and come to the same conclusion: that bird-shot is not a reliable self-defense round. What hubris!

Putting childish insults aside momentarily, I really think you ought to re-evaluate your thinking on this.”

“Okay, are the childish insults back on yet?”

“I love studies....I can tell you that one of the most recognizable sounds is the sound of a Shotgun Slide chambering a round. But use what you feel capable of using. A well placed shot with a small caliber round will ALWAYS beat a Large round missing.

Years ago we had a Police Officer in a large city (no names here) who carried his issued .357 during an incident one night he was attacked by a criminal with a gun. He fired is six, three hit center of mass. The guy kept coming.

The criminal knocked him down in the struggle and then started to take aim. The officer pulled a .25 cal backup and shot the scum in the eye. (END OF STORY).

Personally I use a shotgun with a mixture of rounds. First one down the pipe is .00 buckshot. The next two are SABOT rounds then the last two or 00 buck.

The biggest thing is as (the wise manuka states) you must be able and WILLING to use it. IF you draw a weapon the chances are good the scum will leave but you MUST be capable of accepting the responsibility for taking a human life.”

“Go get 'em, killer.

Where's my popcorn?

"Personally I use a shotgun with a mixture of rounds."
XL

Use it for what?
Do you go out hunting "scum"?”

“A well placed shot with a small caliber round will ALWAYS beat a Large round missing. - XL

Yeah, that's one reason I'm comfortable carrying 9mm. However, I don't think anyone in their right mind would *choose* to confront a threat with only a pistol, if there were a suitable long arm available.”

“LOL...HEY NIGAL....would your response to this be TOO DANG easy (LOL)...

Nigal would just slap em in the face with his "LONG ARM"...or so the girls keep telling me.”

“Dang, I miss my M-60.

I sure hated cleaning that pig.


BIG IRON
To the town of Augusta rode a stranger one fine day

Hardly spoke to folks around him didn't have too much to say

No one dared to ask his business no one dared to make a slip

for the stranger there amongst them had a big iron on his hip

Big iron on his hip
last edited: 7/09/07 7:56:44 AM”

“LOL..cute....Marky mark goes by the "My Wife can take care of it" sort of mentality.

Marky Mark lives in one of the cities that shares the dubious honor of being the most restrictive on Gun Ownership and one of the MOST VIOLENT.”

“I actually live just outside the city.

And just what would my wife take care of?
You just can't stop mentioning my wife, punk.
last edited: 7/09/07 8:08:22 AM”

“Frown big here folks..My shotgun has a hollow lead slug filled with "Four 0" powder with a number 2 primer as the plug, a deer slug, and 2 compressed iron powder shells in the side saddle...00Buck 3 inch magnum shells fill the the extended tube, and I took the time to have the cone forced and the barrel ported...

Nothing quite like having the ability to blow the door hinges or a heavy lock...”

“WHAHAHAHAHA...yeah marky mark....I kept hearing that when I was transferred into the Projects in Savannah (when we were percapita the highest murder rate in the nation).

And marky mark....the best part of my job is the scum come to me. But then again you libbies are libbies right until you become victims....then you start calling for stronger law enforcement.

I love listening to Libbies describe the Law Enforcement (heck military too) You want ANDY and BARNEY if you get caught. But when the psychos hit your life...you want Dirty Harry...

The whole idea of PREVENTION is just not in the libbie text book. As for BACPAC's idea I gotta agree...IF YOU FEEL good with the weapon you are using. Heck I always make sure there is a spare steak knife that doesn't match my set in the house....”

“In case you didn't get it, X, my play on Marty Robbins' BIG IRON was intended to be satire.

.......a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.

Go clean your weapons and keep a lookout for "scum".”

“"The only thing missing from this discussion is ease of use, or speed of subsequent shots, it does obliquely reference the number of shots fired by law enforcement that miss completely. That is not understood by the media, the panic, stress, unexpected movement by the target, reactive movement by the officer to find cover, all contribute to a very low percentage of hits."



So the bad guys in movies are nearly as bad of a shot as I thought? If so, the good guys are freaking amazing with their markmanship.”

“But then again you libbies are libbies right until you become victims....then you start calling for stronger law enforcement.

I love listening to Libbies describe the Law Enforcement (heck military too) You want ANDY and BARNEY if you get caught. But when the psychos hit your life...you want Dirty Harry... - XL

That's a good point. "Libbies" want to throw away the single most important right in the prevention of authoritarianism, yet in the face of crime demand more gestapo-like police enforcement.

Intellectually vacuous. Lose-Lose.”

“Can someone tell me of a case involving a home invasion/robbery where there was a confrontation between armed intruder and armed resident, in which a shoot out occured, and the resident "lost" because of incorrect defensive weapon/shot?

Thanks.
last edited: 7/09/07 9:13:14 AM”

“why dont you all just settle it with pistols at 50 paces at sunup?”

“LOL...good thinking Crash...we all meet for a gun battle here in the states...crash is sitting in Korea saying..."Whoops..sorry couldn't get a flight."

Bear..I can't tell you where there was a loss due to the improper weapon (not enough firepower), but I can tell you of cases where the weapon was improperly used (i.e. the victim was trying NOT to take a life).

You have to figure that something like 90% of the time just the "showing" of a weapon will deter the crime. Most criminals are by and large BULLIES. They are Predators, they want easy prey. They want life without consequences...so if there is a HINT of reaction they may well not follow through.

Remember it is not the viciousness or even the extent of punishment but the CERTAINTY that prevents the criminal from acting. If a criminal knows that he WILL BE CAUGHT and prosecuted then he will be less likely to play.

Reuben Greenberg showed that in Charleston SC in the 1980's when he started targeting criminals. As a result the criminals moved to North Charleston.”

“so if there is a HINT of reaction they may well not follow through.


That was my point with the popping of a paper bag and I suspect the core of what bacpac is saying. If someone broke out a .410 and shot it in a confined room most criminals would probalby break and run. This is my guess and based on nothing more than intuition.”

“intuition is another word for feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings”

“True. Contrary to popular belief, feelings isn't a dirty word.”

“day..the paperbag is funny..but the problem is much like Poker...if you are going to bluff, you better have a reputation for REALLY having a winning hand.

Crash...intuition is often based on emphirical evidence. Where as FEELINGS have really no factual comparison.”

“and sometimes intuition is based on feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings”

“Why Civilian Assault Rifle Ownership is Necessary

You never know when you might need to shoot up a high school.”

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. - Freud”

“Misattributed

* A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
o This is not is not a statement that appears in any translation of any of Freud's works. It is a paraphrase of a statement from the essay "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" (February 1990) by Don B. Kates, Jr. where Kates summarizes his views of passages in Dreams in Folklore (1958) by Freud and David E. Oppenheim, while disputing statements by Emmanuel Tanay in "Neurotic Attachment to Guns" in a 1976 edition of The Fifty Minute Hour: A Collection of True Psychoanalytic Tales (1955) by Robert Mitchell Lindner:

Dr. Tanay is perhaps unaware of — in any event, he does not cite — other passages more relevant to his argument. In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. The probative importance that ought to be attached to the views of Freud is, of course, a matter of opinion. The point here is only that those views provide no support for the [P ENIS] theory of gun ownership.

Due to misreading of this essay and its citations, this paraphrase of an opinion about Freud's ideas has been wrongly attributed to Freud himself, and specifically to his 10th Lecture "Symbolism in Dreams" in General Introduction to Psychoanalysis on some internet forum pages: alt.quotations, uk.politics.guns, talk.politics.guns, can.talk.guns , etc.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud#Misattributed
last edited: 7/09/07 11:22:29 AM”

“I stand corrected.”

“What inspires such fear in people that they feeel they must be armed?

Too much local news?

Armageddon movies?”