Michael Vick

“where did you get those stats. They sound bogus as hell.”

“Tango.. you are no doubt aware that women are increasingly being implicated. Just to make that clear.

They are not bogus
they are as legit as they can get
last edited: 7/19/07 9:42:24 AM”

“That is horrifying. Time to talk to the kids again tonight.”

“I am in complete agreement that child abuse is very prevalent and that most times the perpetrator is a family member but there is no way those stats can stand up to critical review. Show me a source for those stats.”

“hyway. I would have to find the citations as I do not use them everyday, but I can assure you as a professional in this area, if anything those stats understate the issue as tthey refer to male perps and women are incresing being implicated and they are admittedly probably a couple years old.

I know this from personal and professional experience.”

“The Humane Society of the United States keeps a database of news reports on dog fighting. It estimates 40,000 people are involved in the blood sport and 250,000 pit bulls are used.

40 Thousand People SICK SICK SICK

I Just cant believe it. After reading up on a few sites on the history and how widespread this is I can see why someone would say if Bret Farve was indicted would it be a Story?

and Whats with this Hog Dog Thing Thats SICK SICK SICK also.

BP How do you like Human Flesh?”

“NOTE
I need to make a correction regarding the legitimacy of those stats. As the age of consent is lowered in states and other countries, the "crime" and reportable occurances rate goes down. There is currently a law passed in one state which makes oral sex between two children under the age of 17 a non-abuse, non-criminal act. In all states now there are laws which state that an age difference of less than x years (varies state to state) removes the criminal charges which can be filed. Any civil action is excluded by the term "peer sex play". My 8 year old daughter was caught in this bind by a 14 year old neighbor.

Added note:

There are currently attempts to lower the age of consent to age 12 across the country. That will take care of a lot of reportable offenses right there.

South Carolina has the lowest female age of consent law. 14 for girls, 16 for boys.
http://www.coolnurse.com/consent.htm
last edited: 7/19/07 10:13:12 AM”

“If those stats can be verified, and I doubt that they can, they would have to include some very minor infractions to get that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys.”

“Enjoy your life in denial hyway. I'm done.”

“I think those stats are from the same mindset that gave us "All men are potential rapist."”

“hyway:

http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_references.asp”

“The typical child sex offender molests an average of 117 children, most of whom do not report the offense.
Source: The National Institute of Mental Health, 1988

250,000-500,000 pedophiles reside in the United States.
Source: U.S. Department of Justice

Convicted child molesters who abused girls had an average of 52 victims each. Men who molested boys had an astonishing average of 150 victims.
Source: In a study funded by the National Institute of Mental Health Dr. Gene G. Abel, Emory University


Long term effects of child abuse include fear, anxiety, depression, anger, hostility, inappropriate sexual behavior, poor self-esteem, tendency toward substance abuse and difficulty with close relationships.
Source: Browne & Finkelhor, 1986

1.3 million children were sexually assaulted in 1995.
Source: The Gallup Poll, December 1995


It is estimated that there are 60 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse in America today.
Source: Forward, 1993


Reported cases of child sexual abuse reached epidemic proportions, with a reported 322 percent increase from 1980 to 1990.
Source: Sorensen & Snow, 1991


About 95% of victims know their perpetrators.
Source: CCPCA, 1992


Nearly 50% of all rape victims are under the age of 18.
Source: Lawrence Greenfeld, Bureau of Justice Statistics “Sex offenses and offenders” February 2, 1997


1 in 4 girls will be sexually abused by age 18.
Source: Russel, 1983; Finkelhor, 1978; DeFrancis, 1969******


1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused by age 18.
Source: Nielson, 1983; Sgroi, 1978*****


In 1995, local child protective service agencies identified 126,000 children who were victims of either substantiated or indicated sexual abuse; of these, 75% were girls. Nearly 30% of child victims were between the ages of 4 and 7.
Source: Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families, Child Maltreatment, 1995


"Sexual assault continues to represent the most rapidly growing violent crime in America, claiming a victim every 4 seconds. Over 61% of female victims are under the age of 18…”
Source: Lonnie Bristow, M.D., President, American Medical Association, November 1995”

“The interesting thing to me about the older statistics is that they were collected before our current hypersensitivity to most any issue. I'm referring to the 1:4 and 1:6 numbers.

There wasn't a date on the 250k-500k but let's say it's current. There are about 300,000k people in this country. 375k/300,000 is a very low percentage. Let's say 150000k are male and of those about half are in sexually active years. That's 375/75,000. That's about 0.5% which is a good many folks. Those numbers do suprise me.”

“PS. Sorry to totally hijack this thread.



On another board someone asked how in the world they would find a jury for Vick. Someone replied, "cat lovers?" LOL.”

“Russel Simmons, Rev Al Sharpton, The Humane Society and PETA sent a letter to Nike calling for Nike to drop Vick as a spokesperson.

And I got a response to my email.

Thank you for contacting us regarding Michael Vick.

There is no change in the status of the agreement between Nike and
football player Michael Vick. Nike will continue to monitor the situation,
but has nothing further to say at this time.

We appreciate that you took the time to contact us and your feedback
will be passed along to the proper department.

Sincerely,

Nike

Here is my response to them:

Well with that you have lost a customer. And believe me when I tell you I will be speaking to my circle of friends and persuade them to take their consumer dollars elsewhere and to speak to others about you lack of caring about this vile man.

Not only is he embroiled in this heinous 'sport' but his other actions, his middle finger to the fans incident and the
airport incident. Your company will only understand the loss of revenue and I will make it my business to make sure you lose those dollars.”

“rev, my wife is a child psychologist who sees kids who have had some of the most horrendous things done to them. Some of these kids are in the news and she has to give expert testimony about them in court so I know some facts about particular cases. I know that bad things happen to kids. My own daughter had a 13 yo boy try to get her to show her vagina to him when she was 6 yo. He may have shown her his member, I am not sure. I discovered it before it progressed very far. We put her through the all the resources available to abuse victims to make sure every thing was good with her. She is fine and probably has forgotten all about it. But I am sure that when she is an adult some unscrupulous psychiatrist with an agenda will be able to convince her she was actually raped.

So I do know a thing or two. You do not have the market cornered on knowledge of child abuse. I am not in denial nor am I enjoying it. I just believe that the stats quoted are heavily biased with trends, extrapolation and hearsay to come out with the result the researchers are looking for. That doesn't make me someone who doesn't believe the problem exists.”

“You left out the herpes he spread.

In all seriousness, I'll bet they've sent that carefully worded formletter to thousands of people in the last couple of days because you know they're getting tons of mail.”

“I have a brother in law who is a minister and he tells me sexual abuse happens in homes of all types, so I'm not saying it does not happen, just that those numbers may be biased.
Remember, a lot of child abuse expert's paycheck depends on there being abuse.”

“hyway...

I do not deny the stats... especially from that period of time, are very hard to nail down. As well as gathered by "vested interests" if you will. I apologize for my flip remark. It was uncalled for.

Having said that.... Somethings to point out.

Stats are just that. They represent "reports" not discreet victims. In other words, the average perp does indeed have multiple victims. So one perp could contribute to many reports. Each victim is usually victimized more than once. So each report is a separate stat. Does that make the statistics wrong? No it does not. Nor does it eliminate prevalence of the problem.

As a child psychologist giving expert testimony, yes your wife and you do have some authority no doubt. But given the fact that so much abuse is and has been unreported even now, you see only a small percentage of the problem. Having said that, making no claims about your wife please understand, the APA is turning a blind eye to a problem which is tearing this nation apart. It is the APA who will back attempts to lower the age of consent. (Not all obviously) A position paper submitted to a recent conference (the date escapes me, within the last 5 years) offered the position that "intergenrational sex" was healthy, normal and should be encouraged. Thankfully it was refused, but the thinking among professionals is staggering in that regard.

Do I trust the stats? To an extent. Like anything else, they are a snap shot of the problem. Every one I see in my ministry practice has suffered some level of sexual abuse. The vast majority have _never_ told _anyone_ about it before and they tell me only after multiple session when a trust level has been developed. The stats are as accurate, in my view., as stats can be. They definately have their limitations. But I accept them as a good snapshot of a horrendous situation.”

“A position paper submitted to a recent conference (the date escapes me, within the last 5 years) offered the position that "intergenrational sex" was healthy, normal and should be encouraged. - RR

Wasn't that from a Gay Male thinktank or something?”

“Stove, aren't you the president?”

“This isn't Fuego, rosey.”

“Practice what you preach, butternuts.”

“Opinions, rosey. Learn to read.”

“A position paper submitted to a recent conference (the date escapes me, within the last 5 years) offered the position that "intergenrational sex" was healthy, normal and should be encouraged. - RR

Wasn't that from a Gay Male thinktank or something?”
StoveStomper
3:53:41 PM
7/19/07

If I remember correctly it was from a subcommittee of the APA.”

“Thanks, RR”

“Stats are just that. They represent "reports" not discreet victims. In other words, the average perp does indeed have multiple victims. So one perp could contribute to many reports. Each victim is usually victimized more than once. So each report is a separate stat. Does that make the statistics wrong? No it does not. Nor does it eliminate prevalence of the problem.

Exactly my point. That is the same as saying if you have 60 boys grow to be 18 years old and 2 of them have been molested on 5 different occasions each, then you have 10 molesting occasions. Therefore
1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused by age 18. That statement can be made using cooked statistics but it doesn't make it true.

...the APA is turning a blind eye to a problem which is tearing this nation apart. It is the APA who will back attempts to lower the age of consent. ... Thankfully it was refused, but the thinking among professionals is staggering in that regard.

it is also the members of the APA who contribute to the reports and do the studies that make those stats mentioned earlier. Now do you see why I don't trust them.

. Every one I see in my ministry practice has suffered some level of sexual abuse. The vast majority have _never_ told _anyone_ about it before and they tell me only after multiple session when a trust level has been developed. The stats are as accurate, in my view., as stats can be. They definately have their limitations. But I accept them as a good snapshot of a horrendous situation.”
Ramblinrev
3:49:16 PM

A bookie will tell you that everyone they know is a gambler. An owner of an adult bookstore will tell you that most people they see have an interest in porn. An avid scrapbooker will tell you that scrapbooking is all the rage where they live. A civil service worker in a low paid position dealing with irate taxpayers will tell you that people are rude and insulting. We are colored by what we do and tend to believe that what we experience is always the norm.
last edited: 7/19/07 1:19:13 PM”

“But I accept them as a good snapshot of a horrendous situation.”
Ramblinrev
3:49:16 PM

We need to have something. Otherwise we have no clue what we are dealing with. The APA does gather some of the data, but so do Dr's teachers, social workers and on and on. Most of the public evaluation is done by journalists. I grant you, the stats have problems. But they are not "bogus". IMHO

My comment about everyone in my ministry practice was intended to demonstrate an anecdotal truth, not a wide generalization. It says nothing about numbers... simply the reality that many people do not report abuse. That is consistent with all findings that I am aware of.
last edited: 7/19/07 1:26:24 PM”

“During the later half of my Coast Guard career I worked a lot in both chemical dependency and family advocacy. Most mental health professions I knew operated from the position that in cases of CD, child sexual abuse was assumed to exist until proven otherwise.”

“Exactly my point. That is the same as saying if you have 60 boys grow to be 18 years old and 2 of them have been molested on 5 different occasions each, then you have 10 molesting occasions. Therefore
1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused by age 18. That statement can be made using cooked statistics but it doesn't make it true.


Comment
I guess I accept that as a truism of all statistics. The medical world is full of percentages, which mean diddly, except when used as a snapshot to a situation. X% of men will die of prostate cancer. Statistically that may be true. Individually it is meaningless. I do not use the common ploy of many speakers who will say... "Look to your left... now look to the right... you have seen 10 people. One of those is (will, could, what ever). I think that is manipulative. I will however say, "You have 200 people in this church. Statistically that means we could expect so many people to have experienced whatever."

It falls into figures don't lie, but liars can figure" to me.”

“During the later half of my Coast Guard career I worked a lot in both chemical dependency and family advocacy. Most mental health professions I knew operated from the position that in cases of CD, child sexual abuse was assumed to exist until proven otherwise.”
Nimblefoot
4:31:07 PM
7/19/07

To some degree I think that shows the pendulum effect. Following a time of extreme underreporting, there is always a thrust in the other direction. It has been my experience with the people I deal with the mental health community has taken a more moderated position as whole.”

“I guess what I am saying is that people don't listen to chicken littles. People who throw around stats like that have no credibility. The real stats, if they could ever be ascertained and agreed upon, are horrible enough without making them sound apocalyptic.”

“mmmmm...very interesting. If those stats are correct, or only half-correct, than technically I should know a lot of people who have been sexually abused? Or, taking this board as an example, a lot of people posting here, let's say every 1 in 4 or 6 (depending on their gender) should have experienced sexual abuse in their childhood?

I admit, I find it hard to beliefe that it could be so many.”

“I admit my own bias.
A couple of years ago almost every man going thru a divorce here was being charged with child abuse by the wife. Bingo, father loses all contact with the kids. If he had ever disciplined his kids, guilty of abuse.
The paid professionals were lined up to testify against the evil male.
last edited: 7/19/07 2:01:15 PM”

“I wonder what I missed?”

“Dogfighting charges prompt delay, but shoe giant still stands by NFL star


ATLANTA - Michael Vick’s legal troubles prompted Nike on Thursday to suspend the release of its latest product line named after the Atlanta Falcons quarterback.

Nike has told retailers it will not release a fifth signature shoe, the Air Zoom Vick V, this summer. The four shoe products and three shirts that currently bear Vick’s name will remain in stores.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19855497/”

“The total number stats are the ones I find interesting. I agree the ratios are bogus, but the magnitude of the raw numbers is pretty interesting.”

“I admit my own bias.
A couple of years ago almost every man going thru a divorce was being charged with child abuse by the wife. Bingo, father loses all contact with the kids. If he had ever disciplined his kids, guilty of abuse.
The paid professionals were lined up to testify against the evil male.”
StoveStomper
4:56:21 PM
7/19/07

two comments:
1) That fact has prompted some rethinking in the area of custodial rights. I know one man who actually went to prison for abuse where none existed even when the children said it was the mother who was abusive and not the father.

2) I has long been espoused that children do not lie or make up false accusation. Up to a certain age I believe that is true. However, there are now resources available to middle school teenagers urging the filing of abuse reports as ways of dominating a home or extortion against parents.

People are waking up. But the problem is still an undeniable horror.”

“Sounds like Nike is taking a wait and see approach.

When a rapper gets arrested for whatever his record sales sometimes rise. I wonder what will happen here?”

“True.

The total stats make you go ... Holy #&%!$!
The ratio stats make you want to go ... bull#&%!$.”

“Innocent until proven guilty is the way to go my friends. If he is found guilty then we can hang him by his testicals and throw rocks at him until his body falls apart. But not a moment before hand!

[looks around on the ground for good rocks to collect]”

“So Nigal when I as a DS witnessed or sold drugs to a person s/he is still innocent until proven guilty in a court of law? Nah not for me. I saw it happen and/or I know enough to believe him/her guilty in my own mind. I don't need someone else to tell me "hey it's okay now to think he/she's guilty." And how about the facts that NEVER MAKE IT INTO COURT, because it is too predjudicial! The jury can't know that the defendant has been convicted 5 times before for x because it would bias the jury! No thanks I'll make up my own mind.”

“For example, 1.3 million abused in 95. I don't know how many kids are in this country. 10% of 300M is 30M so basically 1 30. That sounds like a very high number still.”

“Except boxing and ufc aren't fought to the death

yea, no sht. really?”

“yeah, and another thing...the parallel between pro athletes and dog fighting stops at the point that athletes are voluntary participants and the dogs are not.”
Nimblefoot

yea, no sht. thats why i said

ALBEIT UNWILLING ONES

RIF”

“Corey's smarter than you.”

“so's your mother”

“all you who don't trust stats. This won't help you any.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/19/sexual.photos.ap/index.html

The math here leaves some things left to be desired, although once again the raw numbers are disturbing.

The head lines screams 1-25 and 4%. But the raw figures need sonme work. The total sample was 1500 aged 10-17. A small sample to start with. 65 of those had been asked to send a sexually explicit photo of themselves.

That is a percentage of 1.5%. The margin of error is 2.5% which is where the journalists get the 4% figure. Dubious figures but a very serious problem.

This study is only of those asked for pictures. It would not be appropriate to use this figure to challenge the previous figure of 1 in 5 youths are sexually solicited on the internet as sexual solicitation can take many forms including the perp sending pictures to the kids. Thiss tudy did not address that figure.”

“you can't shake a virtual dead cat on the internet without hitting someone asking someone else for a nude photo. Its a regular fixture on this site. It means nothing unless your kid is a complete moron and has never been allowed out of the house.”