GLOBAL WARMING

“Backpacker Magazine latest issue on GLOBAL WARMING.............

If you have much exposure to world you’ve likely faced quite a lot of global warming news lately, and I’m wondering what you, as outdoors-oriented men and women, are thinking about the subject.

There seems to be quite a bit of evidence that the world has been warming up a bit. Startling pictures are being waved all over the place, and Backpacker basically prophesied the death and destruction of a great many things we hold dear. At the same time there are other perspectives too. Some people argue that Global Warming isn’t happening at all, that our data is taken out of perspective (for example, pictures of melting snow on top of mountains don’t necessarily point to global warming. Kilimanjaro lost almost all of its snow in the past, i.e. 11,000 years ago, and recovered very well—and the reason for its loss was not attributed to Global Warming. There are many, many variables to take into account, and some feel that these factors, such as Solar Radiation, are being ignored and that Global Warming has become the default explanation.). Others argue that Global Warming may be occurring, but to think that we know exactly how it was caused or exactly how it can be stopped is sheer hubris. Science, they argue, has wreaked a great deal of havoc on the world through unintended consequences. For example, very recently oceanologists in Florida realized they had made a terrible mistake by using thousands of discarded tires to create artificial reefs. The tires were breaking free, and after Hurricane Katrina were found washing up all over the coast. In addition, the tires actually destroyed many natural reefs as they rolled freely across the ocean floor. Scientists are now reconsidering artificial reefs in general.

Here are my questions: What do you think about Global Warming? Is it happening? If so, why? Also, if it is occurring, can we do something about it without actually making things worse? And, what’s your general philosophy about human interaction with the earth (stewardship, conservation, etc…...}
last edited: 7/28/07 4:29:34 PM”

“here we go again......


oh boy this could be tons of fun!!!
Global warming is just an excuse for whack-job environmentalist to cry chicken little...

The first reason I have a suspicion that Global warming is crap is how the left handles it, for example, AL Gore in his movie is quoted as saying it is undisputable that it is hard science and fact, when in fact it is not. When people start dropping the word Theory from their ideas you have to ask why, has it been proved? NO in fact Global warming has not been proved. Global Warming is a theory, which means it is still waiting to be proved or disproved. There are plenty of reputable scientist that feel global warming is bunk. so before we can even have a debate on if it is true or not those who believe have to first admit that a. it is still a theory and that we are therefore arguing about opinions and not fact, because there is not one person on this website or in the world that can produce irrefutable evidence that global warming is real, nor can we produce proof that it is false...
and honestly the biggest clue that this is crap is that the political left is championing the cause…when was the last time that had a positive idea?
_________________
last edited: 7/28/07 4:39:07 PM”

“Then tell me where did all the ice go from the last few ice ages? or why was the temperature in 1500's warmer than it is today? Could it be that it is what they call a cycle? Since you climb have you seen any of those dead trees above our current timber line? What are they doing there? Could it be that in previous time maybe the earth was warmer and they could grow a little higher...
Another point to is what about all these forest fires? Seems stupid that we don't log and we aren't able to clear dead timber, which in turn makes our forest susceptible to fires, which then in turn causes tons of pollution. More in a week than damage you or I could cause in ten lifetimes...just a thought...it's not just Exxon that provides that data it is guys at NASA as well”

“The loudest proponent of Global Warming is Chairman of a company that brokers carbon credits and nobody questions it.

People investigate Haliburton, but nobody questions Al Gore's chairmanship of Generation Investment Management and the direct financial link to the global warming hysteria.”

“What is "science" anyway? A "long list of scientists" used to believe things like:

The world is flat
The earth is the center of the universe
Leaches should be used to remove bad blood...”

“Don't forget, once the Yellowstone supervolcano goes, we're going to experience "Global Cooling"!!!”

“First, there is no unanimous scientific consensus that human activity will cause an unnatural world wide temperature rise. Temperatures on this planet have been much higher in the past before any human activity. Carbon dioxide levels on this planet have been as much as 18 times higher in the past before any human activity.

Second, some scientists state that the costs of solving global warming is greater than the cost of ameliorating the effects of global warming.

Third, economist scientists who have studied the cost-benefits of fixing world problems prioritized fixing global warming as dead last of all the world's problems. In other words, it would benefit society to focus on fixing all the other world's problems first, starting with AIDS, malnutrion, trade liberalization, and malaria.

Fourth, after fixing all the world's other problems, some economic scientists say that the best way to solve global warming would be to impose a world wide manditory carbon tax, not sign on to Kyoto. Before people make political decisions that would wreck the U.S. economy, does it not make sense to make sure the scientists do have it right?”

“We are the only species on the planet that actually deserves to be wiped out.

I'm ashamed to be human.

When some one throws out a cigarette butt or a piece of trash , do you do something about it...........................???
Do any of us do anytjhing to shrink our Foot Print???”

“This has already been asked and answered 30 times over on a thread of the same name ---- which is appropriately categorised as fuego (because of people who get their "science" from talk radio).

Do a search.”

“A drought was part of the cause of the Dust Bowl here in my fair state, but poor farming techniques made it many times worse. The scientists acknowledge that there have been fluctuations, but not anything NEAR this fast. You really should see what they're talking about - the ice lab there in Boulder, the rain forest dudes, the Great Barrier Reaf. What if they're right?
And they did discuss China, and yes that's the biggest problem emerging, although we still dump 25% of the CO2 into the atmosphere, easily ranking first. They didn't suggest that drastic a change here either - just some common sense stuff = more efficient homes, cars, buildings, appliances, plus some wiser choices about life in general = turn off the lights, the computer, the tv, less trips if they can be combined....”

“Um, excuse me ... but is the Fridge/Refrigerator debating himself???

Huh-huh ... Pretty cool, Beavis.”

““This has already been asked and answered 30 times over on a thread of the same name ---- which is appropriately categorised as fuego (because of people who get their "science" from talk radio).

Do a search.”
Tilt ? do you Back pack?”

“refrigerator
the Fridge
Fridgy”

“Didn't mean to leave you out Fridgy. You Rawk!”

“The debate about global warming is rather hard to look at scientifically, because we really don't have any hard evidence as to whether the change in climate is influenced by human activity, or whether it is purely natural (this is why i think so much of the public debate on this topic takes place in the political arena). For instance, we used to think that the glacier in Anarctica was deteriorating at an alarming rate due to global warming, until we found out that there is an erupting volcano underneath the ice.

I personally side with the parties who say that the climate is getting warmer, however I am neutral as to the extent of human involvement in this phenomenon; that is, until more data is aquired”

“According to the national academy of science
http://dels.nas.edu/basc/Climate-HIGH.pdf
"In the judgement of most climate scientists, Earth's warming in recent decades has been caused primarily by human activities that have increased the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases have increased significantly since the Industrial revolution, mostly from the burning of fossil fuels for energy, industrieal processses, and transportation."

More academy studies on climate change can be found here:

http://dels.nas.edu/globalchange/”

“I'm DONE............”

“Me TOO !!!! (2)”

“Me THREE!!! (3)”

“LOL”

“Agreed (4)

Now let's see what we can do about the global warming on Mars.”

“Come on...let not degrade another person's religion (LOL)”

“I had some of that global warming today, as I kayaked down the river, that stuff caused me to become sweaty, then stinky. I also did alittle global warming last night, same thing happen, then it happened”

“The loudest proponent of Global Warming is Chairman of a company that brokers carbon credits and nobody questions it.

People investigate Haliburton, but nobody questions Al Gore's chairmanship of Generation Investment Management and the direct financial link to the global warming hysteria.”
bacpac
7:47:44 PM
7/28/07

My wife is giving a speech at a conference tomorrow in DC. Part of it is slamming carbon credits.

I believe IHS just slammed Gore

First, there is no unanimous scientific consensus that human activity will cause an unnatural world wide temperature rise.

There is no unanimous "scientific" consensus that evolution happened. Thank God we don't have to wait for unanimous consensus to move on.”

“Backpacker has sunk to a new low. Global warming has become such a buzz word that everyone is cashing in on it. How long before McDonalds has a global warming happy meal or Pepsi comes out with a low carbon cola?

Global warming has become the new religion and like most religions it is become a commodity to be bought and sold.”

“and again - some people are confused by what a Scientific theory is as opposed to just a theory.”

“Yes, humankind is definitely, in my opinion, mucking-up (in lieu of a banned better term) the world.

Global climate change is merely one of the symptoms of the real issue and so let's not dwell on a symptom but rather on the real problem.
last edited: 7/28/07 7:41:53 PM”

“Hey BearMagnet, there IS unanimous scientific consensus that evolution happened.”

“The "scientists" behind ID disagree.”

“There used to be a consensus the world was flat too. Saying something over and over and over and over don't make it true.”

“I am powerless to contribute to a cleaner environment for everyone else, but I can contribute to myself a clean environment for my own life.

One campfire under the trees is a blessing, but 21 fires might not be.

I think warming is factual.
last edited: 7/29/07 2:32:35 AM”

“Good point, how many of the zealots here don't have campfires?”

“I do believe that the earth is warming at an alarming rate. Since it is obvious that the earth periodically swings back and forth in temperature, I feel that we are merely exacerbrating the current warming with the addition of our fossil fuel use. Even if the earths temp was stable, it would be prudent to wean ourselves of our dependence on fossil fuels as so much of our oil is imported from unstable regions on the planet. It truely galls me that when I fill up the tank that I am partially funding a culture that would just as soon that we cease to exist.”

“Steppenwolf, when you conserve a gallon of gasoline, that does not mean that gallon of gasoline isn't burned somewhere on this earth and that the middle east sells less oil. The price of gasoline is skyrocketing because world demand far outstrips the finitesupply underground. When the U.S. uses more expensive alternative fuels, we spend more money for fuels, and other people in the world who have less pollution controls on their vehicles, spend a little less money for their gasoline. So Steppenwolf, conserve all the gasoline you want. The people in China and India will thank you for helping keep down the fuel costs for their vehicles (which have less pollution controls on them) and allow them to drive more. And the middle east will still see greatly rising income, just not quite as much.

But the finite supply of oil underground will run out in three or so decades at current consumption rates. After that, no more CO2 from burning petroleum products will go into the earth's air. That portion of the problem will not be there within most of our lifetimes.”

“I don't think anybody disputes that the average earth temperature has risen half a degree in the past 100 years. The reason for the change as well as the doom and gloom result of this imperceptible change has become a political issue. So the earth has warmed and the greedy people are taking advantage of the sheeple who's minds can be swayed with an internet campaign.”

“Nigal - I very seldom have a campfire (too much work).”

“There used to be a consensus the world was flat too. Saying something over and over and over and over don't make it true.”

Agreed. And works both ways

Good point, how many of the zealots here don't have campfires?”

being out in the backcountry with a campfire uses a significant amount of less energy than if one was home that night.”

“You can reduce your carbon footprint, by turning off your computer.
last edited: 7/29/07 5:39:01 AM”

“Did anyone see Dennis Miller when he was on a late-night tv show, holding a magazine from the 70's that had all this info about "Global Cooling"? I was just a kid in the 70's but I do remember people walking around with signs, protesting, saying we were heading to another Ice Age. What ever happened to that?
Yes I think the earth has changed some, and it will continue to change. It has been changing since it was created. People may have some effect on it, but if we were not here it would continue to change. JMHO.”

“I biked to work almost everyday this month....a little over 1000 kms....that's over two tanks of gas.

Saved: Wear and tear on the car.
Environment
$90.00Can
My life...possibly added a few years

Hopefully I can do this to the end of November....that would be 5 months....that's 10 tanks of gas not used by me.

Don't know if mankind have an influence on global warming.....but I can say I did my small part to slow it down......”

“I always wondered where my coworkers were getting gas for their hummers from....”

“Prosecutor, you are correct in what you say. I just had to harp about politics a moment. Yes, some Chinaman would be glad I was trying to conserve. While the supply of easily obtained oil is limited, I do feel much of the current price spikes are manipulated by speculation within the oil future trading business. Panic and greed make for unpleasant circumstances no matter what the commodity may be. God may make a draught, man makes a famine.
A sidenote here, An oil well has been pumping daily for 25 years about one mile from property I own in Alabama. Just the other day, prospectors asked to do seismic research on my property as they are thinking of putting a well in our section. Yeah Baby!”

“being out in the backcountry with a campfire uses a significant amount of less energy than if one was home that night.

How did you get to the park?”

“Uncle Fridge...your mutliple personalities are scaring me. lol.”

“The Fridge is here to cool down the 'Globular Swearming'.”

“OH MAN! I just had a thunk....if we are HIKING we are NOT making a carbon footprint...(unless you count the methane production) is there a way that we can set up a Carbon Credit program...everytime we hike we gain "X" number of credits which we can sell..? Then we split the profits!

I can see it now bit short on cash....take a hike.”

“I'd have to sell my fuel trailor I tow so I can leave my SUV run with the air on while I hike.”

“The head of the Environmental Protection Agency says he will investigate a threatening letter sent by the leader of an EPA-member group, vowing to "destroy" the career of a climate skeptic.

"It is my intention to destroy your career as a liar," Mr. Eckhart wrote. "If you produce one more editorial against climate change, I will launch a campaign against your professional integrity. I will call you a liar and charlatan to the Harvard community of which you and I are members. I will call you out as a man who has been bought by Corporate America. Go ahead, guy. Take me on."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20070727/NATION02/107270089”

“Congress is voting this week on H.R. 969, a bill that will dramatically boost solar and wind energy. If it passes, it'll be like taking 37 million cars off the road.1 Along with the rest of the energy package, it'll be the biggest step in two decades toward a clean planet and affordable energy.

Big oil and coal are fighting the bill hard, because it would undercut their stranglehold on our economy. That's why Congress needs to hear from the public that clean energy is a priority. So, today we're launching a petition:


"Congress must act now to move our country toward a clean energy economy based on solar and wind power by voting yes on H.R. 969, the Federal Renewable Energy Standards Act."

Can you sign this petition today? Clicking here will add your name:

http://pol.moveon.org/cleanenergyfuture/o.pl?&id=10885-4327567-ayBRb8&t=3

This is the moment on energy that we've been waiting for.


The bill requires utilities to increase the percentage of electricity produced from wind, biomass, geothermal, and solar energy sources. If it passes, utilities nationwide will produce 20% of their electricity from renewable energy sources by 2020. This bill alone will reduce 511 million tons of global warming pollution.

Already, over twenty-one states and the District of Columbia have adopted similar requirements. It's a tested and proven solution.

And because the bill allows utilities around the country to buy and sell extra renewable energy they produce, that means more competition and lower prices.

Investing in renewable energy sources would not only curb global warming and protect the environment—the bill is projected to create over 185,000 new jobs, save consumers over $31.8 billion on their energy bills, and provide almost $67 billion in new capital investments in the next couple decades.2

Here what's the San Antonio Express-News had to say about the bill:

Whether one believes in global warming or not, taking steps to reduce our dependence on non-renewable fuels like oil makes sense. It will result in a cleaner, healthier environment for future generations, wean the nation slowly off its dependence on oil and save consumers millions in energy costs.3

Congress need to hear from us now—the vote is expected to be close, and winning would be an important step forward. Can you sign this petition now?

"Congress must act now to move our country toward a clean energy economy based on solar and wind power by voting yes on H.R. 969, the Federal Renewable Energy Standards Act."

http://pol.moveon.org/cleanenergyfuture/o.pl?&id=10885-4327567-ayBRb8&t=4

Thanks for all you do,

–Ilyse, Carrie, Wes, Karin, and the MoveOn.org Political Action Team
Monday, July 30th, 2007

Sources:

1. "Cashing in on clean energy", Union of Concerned Scientists (report), 2007,
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2853&&id=10885-4327567-ayBRb8&t=5

2."Cashing in on clean energy", Union of Concerned Scientists (report), 2007,
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2853&&id=10885-4327567-ayBRb8&t=6

3. "Give the thumbs up to renewable energy" San Antonio Express-News, July 20, 2007
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2844&&id=10885-4327567-ayBRb8&t=7”

“Well look at the way the Islamo Fascists deal with the cartoons in Denmark, "The Satanic Verses" etc....its a religion, no different from any of the wacky fringe bunches today.”