Should I update my GPS?

“OK... I've not found any recent threads on GPS, TOPO!, mapping and the like, and because I've got a bug up my *** to plan a JMT section hike next Summer, I've been playing around with my TOPO!, my Garmin 12CX, and recognize that I need to re-learn it, and hone my orienteering skills.

Candidly, it's been a few years since I put them to the test. And of course, as technology changes, it always does so in ways that leave some of us a little futher behind the curve than we used to be. So, I put it to you, those who are closer to the edge than I am, to provide your input here, as I seek knowledge, wisdom, relative economy (though I'm a tech freak, and will spend the big bucks if I feel it's worthwhile), and tips and tricks.

Technology notwithstanding, I'm determined to hone my map and compass skills as well, for this fundamental knowledge and experience starts first with the basics. I can appreciate that, but as I'm not willing to forego the tech side (not because I NEED it, but because I WANT to use it, and have it in my arsenal), I come to TT as my resource, for this was my first and most major resource when I decided to recreate in the backcountry.

So... HELP!”

“buy a weather proof map and a decent compass. that is all you really need. They are easier to use than a GPS once you have the skills, and they will never crap out on you because they ran out of batteries, or signal.”

“Gee... you're a big help!

(me neither --- I just haven't taken the plunge into that technology yet)

((.... I hear that all the trees here in the Southeast interfere with the signals))”

“sorry, but you may get that opinion from more than just myself. Magnetic north is and always will be magnetic north. It's a force of nature that can't be affected by water infiltration, temperature, cloud cover, line of sight, or anything else. It has been reliable for thousands of years. You can't argue with a track record like that. They are also lighter and more compact than any GPS on the market.”

“Just an FYI --- the magnetic poles have switched around in the past and some scientists think we may be coming up on another.  As they say, the only permanent thing is change.

And like I said, for my purposes it's probably like carrying a paperweight.... but route-finding in open country may be another matter.”

“Soooooo.....

What I'm hearing is there are few people who feel a GPS is worth its usefulness, and that map & compass are more reliable (and, of course, lighter)?

While that seems somewhat of a purist perspective, I'm not sure I buy into it completely. But then, I didn't start this thread to argue the merits of technology vs. tradition... what I asked about was whether or not it made sense to update/upgrade the one I have... in the end, I may not necessarily use it on longer hikes, since I am also weight-conscious. It may well turn out that it finds more use in situations where weight is little, if any, concern - such as fishing trips, day hikes, and the like.

Rather than debate the basics and philosophies of orienteering, I'm more interested in those who can legitimately speak to the merits of upgrading or not.

Savvy?”

“aw come on, Obi. what's TT with out a good debate? LOL! JK. GPS do have their good features, and usefullness. They are fun to geocach, or mark good fishing holes etc.
Honestly i was bored and threw in my 2 cents just because.”

“No sweat, mg... it happens...”

“Still no meltdown?   Darn it all to heck!

I was just chiming in to say I didn't know squat,   < VBG >”

“Now, Tilt, on the other hand...”

“ya he was totally flaming you. obviously looking for a fight in my opinion. You better go get him.”

“People who claim a map and compass are all you need often don't know how to use a map and compass.

Take a look at the Delorme PN-20.”

“Thanks, Bacpac, I'll do just that...”

“If you wait around another 23,000 years, the shift in Earth's axis would actually make you right... albeit a bit out of step with normal life expectancy...”

“Bacpac, do you also have the Delorme Topo USA software? From what I read, it has some [apparently] great features, especially the 3-D effect. Methinks that could be helpful in gaining perspective for some of those steep inclines and such.

For $45, it seems - perhaps it's too good to be true - better than the TOPO! Regional Series I have (6 different regions, including TOPO! USA). At first blush, and based on price alone, either the DeLorme is a helluva bargain, or the TOPO! is much more useful, and comprehensive.”

“i just upgraded today.....went from a garmin gecko 101, as basic as u can get to a magellan explorist 210, it can download maps and such....but i finally wanted something i could input a lat and long, or mgrs location in”

“Actually there was an article in Nature about three years ago.... putting forth the hypothesis that Earth's magnetic field reverses every few thousand years at low latitudes and every 10,000 years at high latitudes.

It allegedly happens when field strength dips below 90% of the norm.... and we're supposed to be about there now.

Make sure you have extra tinfoil around the house, just in case ----”

“I've alredy made my helmet... working out the kinks in the coat & pants... damn zippers.”

“Great!  Now we have two threads converging on the Wizard of Oz.  Perhaps we'll get an 'Emerald City' comment on one of the Iraq threads next....

But I digress.

Seems like there was someone with that 'Canoli' nomenclature over on the magazine site (in the recipe section?) way back during the Wiggy Sleeping Bag Wars.  There can't be two of you guys running loose out there, could there?”

“Must be my evil twin...”

“"If it aint broke don't fix it"

Hiya Obi!

I'm not up to speed on the current GPS models but if it's anything like the rest of computer technology...it was obsolete the same year you bought it ;)

Just look at the changes in memory for one example.


Meangreen, magnetic north does move around a bit because declinations on maps have changed over the years...not a lot but some.”

“Hey obi,

You would be highly unlikely to need a gps on the JMT, as the trail is always quite obvious. If you're doing side trips or parallelling anywhere, then maybe. That said, of course I took mine this summer. But I'd say 3/4 of the time, it's more of a toy for me than a navigational tool. For example, BowlderSon and I had a game going (results still pending), where we would mark on our maps (made from TOPO!, printed two-sided with our inkjet printer onto Nat'l Geo's weatherproof paper) our lunch and camp spots to compare with the gps-recorded spot later.

But I do use the gps for navigating, too, even though I can do pretty well with a map and compass.

I have the basic etrex - no fancy stuff, can still get a new one under 100 bucks I think. It's easy to load waypoints from TOPO onto it, easy to use, etc.”

“From my limited exposure to the JMT, Bowlderman, I agree... mostly. There were a few times where the trail wasn't so obvious, though with a good map (I have the same NG paper here too) and compass, it shouldn't be difficult to pick up the trail, if you keep heading where you know it WILL be.

I also can relate to the "toy" aspect, but my skills at reading a map well enough to feel high confidence are not, perhaps, as kind to me as they are to you, and so, any tool which helps me to navigate more effectively could be useful.

I'd probably find a GPS in my car more practical, but haven't gone that route yet... I DO wish I'd invested in Garmin when I bought mine, though... it's more than $106 a share now....

By the way... I haven't actually used that NG paper yet, but printing on BOTH sides with TOPO! is interesting... the paper itself appears thick and sturdy enough that it wouldn't leak through or obscure an image on the reverse side, but is that the case in your experience?

Lastly, how accurate have you & BowlderSon found your game to be? The TOPO! I have (Version 2.7.7) isn't updated with newer maps as they become available, and with my recent upgrade to Google Maps Plus ($20/yr.), I can upload waypoints from my GPS to it, and it will lay them all out on an overhead which - I gotta tell ya - is pretty cool to see, especially the ability to view it from a complete 360 perspective, and the ability to toggle from overhead to a horizon view...

You can zoom in from a satellite view, and in many cases, actually see the trail. You can also view it as if you were in a small plane flying 50 feet above the terrain. VERY cool... and Google updates the maps as they are updated by USGS.

Furthermore, you can also opt to include a lattitude / longitude grid overlay which can also help you locate a waypoint on that same view. It's almost as good as 3-D...”

“No leakage through the thick paper - it works great!

So far, the maps & recorded waypoints are spot on. Of course, you have to make sure you are in the same database.”

“If you are looking for someone to validate your itch to buy a new toy you just need to look in the mirror.
last edited: 9/16/07 7:18:44 AM”

“True, that...”

“Obi, I don't have Delorme Topo.

Magnetic North is constantly changing. If you have an old map the Declination can be off by several degrees. Most map and compass purists aren't even aware of this.”

“ Most map and compass purists aren't even aware of this.”
bacpac

Purists are aware. Joe Blow that goes out and buys one thinking he will never get lost now is another matter...sort of like the yahoos that get a GPS and think they don't need a map to go with it.
I have never used a GPS backpacking. Got one, toyed with it, hasn't seen the outside of a storage box in 4 years.”

“Hey Sticks..sell it to me........I am headed to Alaska next year and will use it because all the maps todate will not show the rivers that has rerouted and landslides that have been happening lately. I will use a map but back it up with a GPS or vice versa..........hehehe also the declination is much greater and will have to be upgraded according to age of the map with the angle.........there is a formula for this. I taught Compass and Map courses in Ranger School and Jungle Warfare School. The liquid juice within the Earth is moving..........hehehe
last edited: 9/16/07 2:07:47 PM”

“I would not use a GPS without a map. I might if my GPS had a map on it. I always carry a compass too.

The advantage of a GPS is that you can load coordinates from mapping software or Google Earth prior to the trip. You also know exactly where you are on the map with a GPS and exactly where everything else is. Even USGS topo maps aren't exactly accurate.

I have navigated with map and compass and it is much easier with a GPS.”

“I think I let this get a bit off-track - if you'll pardon the pun...

My original questions had to do with whether I should update my 2001 Garmin 12CX...

Now, it works just fine... and at the time, was the best bang for the buck, what with battery usage, weight, features. It didn't take long, though, for lighter fare to surface - and most were smaller, more compact, but still only saved about 3 oz.

I suppose my question isn't so much rationalizing the use of it... we've already covered that, and my feelings are clear on this point. I'm inclined to think there could be more memory, longer lasting battery power, and additional features, like an [i]effective[i] altimeter, and something else I've heard of - an electronic compass that doesn't require you to be moving in order to obtain a reading.

Who's got a next generation GPS out there?”

“I have a Garmin GPSmap 60CSx. I've been very pleased with it. I haven't ever lost a signal yet and I've been out in some pretty heavy folage. Last week I was at RRG and never lost signal. It has expandable memory. I use it in the car as well as the trail. I have Garmin's Topo maps and City Navigator and can use both.”

“INteresting.... I always heard leaves were trouble.

oh crap, I did it again.    Sorry Obi ---”

“Magnetic North is constantly changing. If you have an old map the Declination can be off by several degrees. Most map and compass purists aren't even aware of this.”
bacpac


I'm aware of it.”

“There is a simple formula to know what the current Declination angle is. If you know your Map and you think you have the skills, then you already know the formula.”

“Newer gps's are good for essentially giving you a pretty and detailed electronic map, and for (my favorite) allowing you to keep a detailed account of your hike.

I like GPS for 4 things a map won't do -

1. figuring out where I am when visibility is zero (trees), especially useful for those 'blue' trails off the AT

2. Adding destination way points for when visibility is zero (trees)

3. Works as an after trip log

4. Finding a specific house when I'm lost when driving a car”

“Is that when you're doing driveby's?”

“Yes, it's just a hobby.”

“Re: magnetic north....

I just noticed recently that when you print out a TOPO! map and opt to include the north arrow, etc., it gives you an estimate of magnetic north for the date you are printing it. i.e., you don't have to rely on a published map's indication and figure out how much it's changed since the publication date.”

“I also have a Garmin Map60csx and I'm very pleased with it. The expandable memory allowed me to put the entire East Coast onto one 2-gig memory card. Ditto for holding signals. I have never lost a signal even inside the car under trees. It picks up the signal within a short time after turning it on, again in the car, under trees.

The color display is great. The compass and altimeter features are good for hiking, but I rarely use or need them otherwise.

I have also owned Garmin Vista and Magellan eXplorist 600. The Magellan has expandable memory and all the other bells and whistles, but is not as sensitive as the 60csx. I also prefer the two AA battery power over the eXplorist Li-Ion rechargeable.”

“Went to look over a few items at the GPS Store.com & REI site too (for their comparison matrix). While there are common features to all gps, I started by comparing those of the 60 CSx & 76 CSx. Both are priced the same, and both offer a rebate if bought before 12/31.

What appears to make them different is appearance, memory (64mg vs. 128mg), the former offers "reversible routes" and offers "expandable" memory, vs. "removable" memory.

GPS store site says 60CSx battery life is 30 hours, but REI says 20. 76CSx shows 20 hours. 76CSx comes with built-in routes, though this appears to be dedicated to traditional street use.

Why did you choose the 60?

I'm going to be taking a look at Magellan, too...”

“Looked at Magellan... not as impressed here as I am with Garmin's product line. Based on price, value, and features, it would seem the Garmins giv eyou the most bang for the buck. Question is, do I wanna spend the buck?

Anyone using something other than Garmin or Magellan? Care to offer a review?

Thanks!”

“I posted this somewhere on some Obi thread... (where, oh where??)

To repeat... an REI guy said that Magellan uses National Geographic TOPO! maps now (or if not right now, soon!)

He said Garmin was in conversations with NGT, but nothing compatible yet.

I hope they do!! Love my NGTs! and the Garmin.

Was just at the WI Geo-picnic. Someone in the 100+ people had a Lowrance, but I never saw it.”

“Lowrance.... Now that's a name from the misty past.”

“Yeah, Lizs, I remember you'd mentioned that... it would seem that TOPO!'s getting the most kudos for software features & capabilities, and everything I've read and learned so far seems to support that popularity. Garmin, too...

As I've been dinking around with my 12CX, I have to ask myself why I would replace it? The software version (2.01) it uses is dated 1998, and I haven't learned if you can update that somehow, maybe with a download from their website, though that would be encouraging...

The specs for the 12CX say nothing of "memory" - a common claim with current models - but it'll handle 1000 waypoints and 20 routes, more than enough for any one hike (or 20). It requires 4 AA batteries, so I use lithiums for weight, and duration (36 hours +/-), and with batteries, the unit weighs in a 9.5 oz. (269 grams).

Acquisition time is about 45 seconds cold, 15 seconds warm, with a position accuracy of 1-5 meters (3-17 ft.), though I often note the EPE reading hovers around 23 ft. if I'm moving.

I suppose the most reasonable question here is, what would I gain by spending another $350 on a new GPS (and I would probably not flinch at that, 'cause I'm a gadget freak)? Then I'd have two, 'cause who would buy a used "old" GPS?

Decisions, decisions...”

“How much would you want for it?”

“All I can offer you is confirmation that the Garmin Map60CSX is head and shoulders better than the Magellan eXplorist 600.

The main difference is that the Garmin is more sensitive, therefore gets fast signal acquisition and it does carry signals under trees and in vehicles.

The advantage of a newer GPS over older is the newer models take card media to store maps, which means with a 2 gig card you can store the entire East Coast, or whatever section of the country you want. If you need wider coverage, you can change cards.

NatGeo Topo would be great. I wonder if one could just load those maps onto card media or whether you'd need a new GPS.

You might want to wait a bit to see how that shakes out before you shell out $350 or so.”

“Good idea, Geobeet... I'm not in any hurry, frankly, have plenty of time to consider things. Faster acquisition is good, lighter is good, and removable media COULD be an advantage, but you can't hike 'em all at the same time.

With the capability to up- and download routes and waypoints, etc., back and forth - and it takes less than a minute in my case for anything I've done - seems to me the time in between hikes is when you're sitting at your computer, tracing routes (and then saving them for future, eternal use), you can focus on getting it all in and down, save it, then forget it. Like Ron Popeil!

But, I digress. Thanks for your input, I appreciate it!”

“Rev - sent you an E to answer...”

“Why did you choose the 60?
I had a GPSmap60 and decided to upgrade. I went with a GPSmap60CSx because it was simular to my other one and I already knew how to use to with ease. Everything else seemed to be the same between the two.
The alkaline batteries last between 18 - 20 hours.
last edited: 9/20/07 1:55:53 PM”