Christians, sign in

“Thanks for the information in the grape juice. I had not made the connection between the two. Go figure. My church history classes did not cover that era. Makes sense tho.

As far accepting ex-drinkers into the church let's place the emphasis on the EX where my experience says it belongs. I know folks who were asked to leave a church I served (before I got there) because they opened a tavern. I was approached by a church in the Finger Lakes region of NYS where the town's major employer and most of the congregation worked in the winery, but the church had an outdated abstinence clause in their constitution. In other words, they made their living leading people into sin. I didn't interview at that church. I just couldn't.”

“Well, many of you know from my past discussions with Sarge that I'm a Christian. I was installed as a Deacon at my church about 15 years ago, although I haven't served communion in a few years (I have regularly ushered, though). My kids are 4th generation, and to my knowledge no other active family goes beyond 2 generations. A neat but not-too-important fact. I wear a cross 24/7, because of what it stands for and not because it looks pretty. Our church openly accepts gays/lesbians where many others in our denomination (Presbyterian) do not; I'm proud of that.”

“Well said Dub!”

“Tech I have no problem accepting Gay and Lesbian, but I had a problem with their promotion as Bishop in the Episcopal church.

My thing was were they promoting a Bishop who happened to be gay....or a GAY Man to BE Bishop.

Sorry but I have had some real problems with the Christian ministers who slowly put themselves in place of God in the Church.”

“I'd hate to go on a hike if Nigal is excluded. I kinda like the guy. :)


Raised Catholic, tried out a few other Christian denominations a few years ago, landed as a Presbyterian. Kinda helped that G was Presbyterian, I suppose.

My brother asked if we were going to have Evie baptized, and if we even did that in our religion. Makes me sad that he (and the rest of my family) have little knowledge of other denominations, and other religions.”

“Here is my view:

When out in the wilderness I don't care who or what you worship. All I really care is that you are honest, trustworthy and reliable. Being a Christian has nothing to do with that. It is having ethics and morals.

I don't want to hear about your religion or your beliefs in said religion either. I'd rather enjoy the lakes, the views and the scents.

I grew up in a very conservative family. From the time I was born till I was 16 or so and finally refused, I went to church 3-4 times a week. Girls had to wear skirts or dresses and no makeup/long hair was "encouraged". The woman was expected to cower to her husband. As children we were expected to play only with other kids in the church.

What I did see though was how much hatred, fakeness and deceit went on-the bigger givers were treated better, there were of course the families that were treated as royalty.

So yes, I have some BIG issues with organized religion. Issues that will most likely affect me ever from being religious. It doesn't mean I am not spiritual. That I am. I have deeply held views and beliefs. I live life as good as I can.

I simply choose to have no organized religion in my life. I can live without that.

From my experiences talking with others who grew up in severe conservative religious families was how brainwashed they felt, and the desperation to get away. Many married young simply to get away.

The thought of going on a "Christian Hike" gives me near hives. But it doesn't stop me from hiking with Christians or others. As long as religion is left at the car, I am fine.”

“I'd enjoy going on this hike as an observer. However, it seems as though I'm a gonna be working for awhile. (including SUNDAY)”

“Sorry you had a bad experience sarbar1. You shouldn't go on any hike that will give you the hives. If you do go on hikes with a Christian though, I'd hope you wouldn't ask them to leave their religion in the car, like it's an extra water bottle. Faith is part of who many people are. I have non-Christian friends, and I wouldn't think of asking them to leave their beliefs behind.

That said, I agree there is a time and a place for everything. I personally have a rule not to "talk politics" on the trail. I don't think people should be "pushing" their faith on you on the trail, or any other time you're not receptive to it. But if their view of the world involves one where there is a creator, I hope you wouldn't ask them to leave it in the car.

It's interesting that your distaste for Christianity came from certain people being intolerant of people who don't fit their idea of how a person should live, yet you seem intolerant of them just as well, and would ask them to "change" when on the trail with you. Enough that they almost make you physically ill? It's an unfortunate side-effect of man's fallen nature, we are unaccepting of others. All of us are to some extent, since none of us really understand what true love is.

There are plenty of opportunities to hike with all sorts of people without having to criticize a particular one.
last edited: 9/20/07 2:33:06 PM”

“Sarge I think you fail to understand my point:

I don't like ORGANIZED RELIGION. I could care less what stands behind the religion-I don't care if you are Christian, Bhuddist, Muslim, Jewish, etc. I don't want to know what you are. The strongest beliefs can be held inside.

As for the other:
Certain topics are NEVER polite topics. How much you make $ at work, politics, religion, sex, your bowel movements, etc. Common sense tells one not to talk about these subjects with just anybody. Good friends it is fine, but not with casual friends or people you barely know.

The nice thing is that in all my years of hiking I have rarely met anyone (out of uh...200+ forum people) that needed to talk about the above items.

And I wouldn't be calling me intolerant, Sarge. I have hiked with a number of preachers and ministers-who knew to leave the spiel at the trailhead. You see, they were tolerant of MY beliefs as well. And hence, we get along just dandy.

Our world would be a much better place if we didn't discuss religion or politics as casual conversation.”

“Kumbaya!”

“Good point, Sarbar.”

“I suppose it depends on how you define "religion". If by that you mean don't try to convert you against your will, sure I agree with you, like I said. But if "leave religion in the car" means they shouldn't talk about their religious beliefs, like "This is a beautiful mountain that God made" or "I thank Jesus for this wonderful river" or "I pray that we find water soon" ... then I would have to disagree.

I think what you haven't realized is that "organized religion" can be (not always) a belief of people. By telling them to leave it in the car, that is intolerance. I'm not saying it's not your right, and I understand why you wouldn't want to hear about it. I would certainly respect that if you asked. But I would never leave my religion in the car.

And I wouldn't be calling me intolerant, Sarge. I have hiked with a number of preachers and ministers-who knew to leave the spiel at the trailhead. You see, they were tolerant of MY beliefs as well. And hence, we get along just dandy.

No comment, other than I think you probably didn't word that how you meant it, unless it was meant as a joke.

I think we're probably in agreement - I was simply pointing out that your bad experience as a child should not affect your ability to allow Christian friends to speak what they believe.”

“"This is a beautiful mountain that God made" or "I thank Jesus for this wonderful river"

Do you really want to belt out that sort of thing around people who don't want to hear it?”

“Marko, those are exactly the people I'd want to "belt that out" around. I don't believe that is offensive to any reasonable person.

I don't think that's any more offensive than saying "the Boy Scouts did a great job on the bridge."
last edited: 9/20/07 3:43:24 PM”

“I have to weigh in here, mostly in response to Sarbar, but to others as well.

Many who respond viscerally to any mention of "Christianity," in my opinion, don't understand what Christianity is - at least in the Biblical sense. Biblical Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with "religion." What Biblical Christianity is about is a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ -that is what is described in the Book of Acts. The early church was not a building, or a doctrine, or a denomination - it was simply a body of believers who were drawn together to worship and to encourage one another.

Religion, on the other hand, is in essence a set of rules and/or worship practices created, in most cases, not by God, but by man. Some of those practices are based on Scripture, others are not. Most peoples' problems with "religion" are reactions to what man has created, not what God has ordained.

The main tenant of true Biblical Christianity is - plain and simply - love. How can anyone reasonably object to that? Jesus said that there are 2 great commandments - to love God and to love others. Unfortunately, even Christians (like me) forget the latter sometimes.

The point is, I can certainly leave "religion" in the car, but not my Christian values, which are to appreciate God's creation and to love my fellow hikers. I would think that anyone would want those things along on any hike.”

“Exactly, SB.  The only ones I avoid are those who proselytise.  When they show up at my door, I say "Whatever your views are, by all means keep them.... and please show me the same respect."”

“"The army of Christ is the only army that shoots its wounded."

In all too many cases that is the truth. I wish I could say it was not. In my Pagan days I wished nothing but death and destruction upon the Christian churches of the United States. As a matter of fact on more than one occasion I publicly proclaimed "The best thing that could happen to the United States would be to burn all the churches, admit it was all a hoax and move on from there.

So here I am, an ordained Amerkin Babdis clergy. God does indeed have a sense of humor. All of you who feel betrayed by the church... I hear you loud and clear. Those who see nothing nothing but hypocrites... gotcha covered. Those who feel there can be no future for the church so why even bother to pursue it... been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the hat.

What can I say? There are those of us in the faith who are diligently working to correct many of the things you have voiced and spoken up about and I appreciate your willingness to share and enter into this discussion with personal disclosure and honesty. I would pray that your stories do not fall on deaf ears.”

“"I don't believe that is offensive to any reasonable person."

I am a reasonable person and I would find that annoying, Sarge.
I don't want to hear it...........I would bid you adieu and take another trail if you didn't stop.

One can appreciate "god's creation and love their fellow man" by not pestering them with preachy invocations.


"I pray that we find water soon."

Fine, you stay here and pray and I will go find water.


I would never expect someone to leave their values anywhere but in their heart.”

“Ditto Rev.

It wasn't long before being saved that I literally stomped on a Bible. - I'm just saying also "been there, done that". That said, I echo strutta as well. Religion and Christianity are not the same thing. My religion is a general guide I follow, partly because I'm commanded to "come together" with fellow Christians. There is a lot of good that comes from that, inside and outside the church. It's not perfect, but it's not too shabby either. It's part of who I am, but I am willing to not shove that way of life down somebody's throat. I won't, on any circumstance though, leave my Christianity at the door, nor avoid proclaiming my thankfulness in fear it might offend.
last edited: 9/20/07 4:21:09 PM”

“Wow RamblinRev, when I had enough of religion all I really did was become indifferent to it.

You was a bad motorscooter!”

“I would never expect someone to leave their values anywhere but in their heart.

Well, I don't know who has been using your login for the past several years. Perhaps you should investigate?”

“You've got a warped sense of reality Brother Sarge.”

“Thank you for voicing your sense of reality, brother MarkO. I'm sorry you feel only your version should be spoken out loud.”

“"Well, I don't know who has been using your login for the past several years. Perhaps you should investigate?"
Sarge

I speak my mind and you turn on the flame thrower.

It looks like the mean old Sarge is back.......or never really left.”

“Well, it took awhile, but it's finally up to fuego. Should have been at the start.”

“Oh come on MarkO. Be serious. You're telling Christians that they can't "speak their mind" out loud, but you can? :-) Somebody is going to call you on it. That's not flaming, and you know it. I'll bow out now.

And that comment was meant in fun, and you know it.


last edited: 9/20/07 4:55:25 PM”

“Now we're back down to glowing embers.”

“LOL! Reminds me of the homeland security terrorism thread level, but it makes more sense.”

““"This is a beautiful mountain that God made" or "I thank Jesus for this wonderful river"

Do you really want to belt out that sort of thing around people who don't want to hear it?”
MarkO
3:49:18 PM
9/20/07

MarkO - while hiking with a group of staunchly conservative Christians, loudly and proudly proclaim what a wonder Evolution is, how it shaped that tree, how there must be water in the area for this ecosystem to have evolved, and perhaps how millions of years of geology can be seen in the mountain - see what reaction that gets ;o)”

“"I want the people to know
that He saved my soul
But I still like to listen
to the radio
They say that Rock and Roll is wrong
I'll give you one more chance
It makes me feel so good
I've got to get up and dance...
(forget the words here)...
-Larry Norman
Jesus himself was quite upset with the "religious" people of his day. One of his closest buddies, James, says true religion is about looking after orphans and widows in their distress...I used to have a strong belief in a God somewhere, but as I'v been knocked about a bit by the "storms of life" my faith turned into a genuine love and deep appreciation for all God has done for me. I love to laugh and play, and especially in the woods where the wilderness seems to be the great equalizer. I've found that fakes, frauds, liars and cheats tend to shy away from the mountains and hills. Jesus himself loved to escape to the wilderness, and often invited his friends to join him there. Looking forward to hiking with anyone of any persuasion who wants to enjoy the day.”

“The army of Christ is the only army that shoots its wounded.

Now theres a quote for ya. thanks rev! :}

I gave up religeon to become a christian. You are right tho, if christians are to come together then the corruption has to be fought and that can only be done from inside the church.

I for one would never exclude anyone from a hike on account of their faith. Nigal is always welcome.”

“It is a matter of respecting others. The issue behind proselytizing is that you don't always know what others beliefs are-and you may well force your beliefs on others. Now granted, a core belief of many in Christianity is "sharing the faith", but there is common sense.
This would be why in many work situations you are not allowed to talk religion to your coworkers.

It is rude mostly.

As I mentioned with the ministers/preachers I have hiked with, they have their faith in their body, soul and mind. They don't have the undying need to point it out to everyone they encounter in life. They are comfortable and secure in their beliefs.

My wedding was performed by an ordained minister, and on my wedding license it is marked as a "religious ceremony", and yes, he used a bible in the ceremony. He though kept the religious overtones very low to nil, respecting what I wanted and nicely asked for. And I also call him a good friend as well. We hike often together. We often talk about nature, the beauty out there...but never religion.

Those with the need to change others views are quite suspect in my view. Are they not secure enough in their beliefs? Do they feel that they are superior to others? That others HAVE to be saved?

Thing is, many in the world could care less about Christianity. Instead of saying "I thank Jesus for the wonderful River" you might just say "What a gorgeous river" or "Wow, I feel at home here". (And anyhoo......since when did Jesus make that river????? Uh, God did if you believe in the Bible.)

When religion is brought up around non-family or close friends it often leaves someone feeling very uncomfortable. And that is just not respectful! A true Christian would want love to be felt, not increasing hatred.”

“I left my dad here about three weeks ago:


This is what people often call "God's Country". While not a Christian by any means (as I have noted above), I often do talk to the sky as I hike and backpack. As I said, I am spiritual deeply. When I saw this river flowing in Montana, unfettered by dams or civilized life, I felt a presence and made my choice. This is where I left my dad to be with his maker. I respected my dad's wishes, even if I did not agree with his views. I will visit my dad again.

”

“Thing is, many in the world could care less about Christianity. Instead of saying "I thank Jesus for the wonderful River" you might just say "What a gorgeous river" or "Wow, I feel at home here".

Those with the need to change others views are quite suspect in my view.




This is the point I've been trying to make to you. "It is a matter of respecting others."



last edited: 9/20/07 6:55:25 PM”

“I have never left my convictions in the car. I have discussed the Bible and such with others who have either inquired or started a conversation which led into the topic.

I have also acknowledged other beliefs and engaged in conversations about them. Faith positions which I do not, can not share and would not even if I could. But then I don't have to. I have also joked about my beliefs with others who do not share them. To some degree I am fortunate in that I spend a lot of time on the trail by myself cause I am such a gimpy slow poke. But the truth is, I suspect no one has to look very hard to know what my convictions are. But they are mine. If they are shared, cool. If not... that's okay too.

Most of my time in ministry is spent with people who have been hurt and damaged by the church. And that's okay with me.”

“churchs are the worst place to go if your looking for someone who is a Christian”

“See Rev, I could walk with you. I am sure you'd find we had so much to talk about, well, religion would never come up. There is so much out there to discuss. Like views, mountains, glaciers, rivers flowing, deep life questions, the pizza dinner coming in two days, how bad the other persons on the trip smell........and all the hot gossip about everyone! ;-) You see, that is how I hike with preachers - come trail time they are no different than me or other hikers - they are humans.”

“and all the hot gossip about everyone! ;-)


Oh sarbar1 you are sweet to say such nice things. But I would have to draw the line on the above. Scripture declares gossip as bad as murder and I do my very best to stay away from that. I'll tell stories on myself and listen to stories about yourself but let's leave the gossip in the car. >:?)”

“my grandfather was a great christian man. i know this is the way he would want to be remembered. he was very smart and the most inventive person I have ever known. totally honest and reliable. he clearly drew strength from his faith but never pushed his beliefs on others. the fact that i noticed it yet he didn't "brag" about his relationship with God was what i found most amazing. he was totally humble and he really and truly had placed his life in the hands of this higher power he believed in. i was always impressed because it was clear this was a big part of who he was as a person. i say this now mostly because this thread made me think of him and how much i miss him... only been a little over a year since his passing. he was like a father to me in many ways, and my dad told me a while ago that he was like a father to him. i bet a lot of people make that claim. i hope as i get older and mature that i am 1/2 the man he was.

we used to talk for hours and hours about science, a favorite topic. he was very interested in astrophysics (which I was studying) and the periodic table. i sadly know now that i would start to lecture him, and i think i would get a bit boastful sort of showing off what i knew... i do this to this day i am sad to say... and he stopped once during a pause in the conversation. i'll never forget what he said. He said, "You know, I never had the chance for an education like you have had. So I can't understand everything we talk about. Even though I can't understand all the things my mind questions, I find peace in knowing that one day the Lord will take my hand in his and answer all the questions that I have." i was struck silent and to this day his statement and it's humility defined for me my grandfather and the christian man that he was.
last edited: 9/20/07 7:26:44 PM”

“It's really unfortunate sarbar, your unwillingness to be accepting unless people conform to you. You're probably missing out on more than you realize.”

“Wasn't it Paul who said something like "I became all things to all people so that I reach them with the love of Christ." Perhaps it _is_ incumbent upon us to level the playing field without sacrificing any of our own convictions. Anyway, like I say so many "Christian" gatherings they say "You are the Pastor so you say the prayer." Phooey on that. Hand me a beer and you want it prayed over let me know. If not... I bless my own and you'll never know it.”

“Sarge, take a look at the video I posted. Then you might understand how tolerant I am.
I don't need to tell others my beliefs. I am secure in them. And secure enough to respect my dad's final wishes, which were of religious.
The video explains all and nothing.

But then again, Sarge, you are a well known troll, are you not?”

“Rev - Show me a verse that says to be worldly to spread the Word. I'll give you a couple dozen that warn against such behavior, and to proclaim loudly.

Paul certainly never taught the way to be all things was to deny Him.

cock-a-doodle-doo ...”

“Paul certainly never taught the way to be all things was to deny Him.

cock-a-doodle-doo ...”
Sarge
10:55:33 PM
9/20/07

Show me anywhere in this forum or any where else for that matter where I have denied him....

cluck cluck cluck”

“sarbar, call me names, tell me to keep my beliefs to myself, I know you've said several times just now you'd hike w/ Christians, as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves. That's not what "tolerant" is. It just isn't. Not in any dictionary.”

“hey sarbar1 you can hike with me anytime. You tell me about evolution and I'll tell you about young earth theory and we'll look at each other content with the knowledge that neither one of us can prove a darned thing. And we'll probably have a good laugh over it.”

“Show me anywhere in this forum or any where else for that matter where I have denied him....

I wasn't insinuating you had. But suggesting somebody 'level the playing field' by suppressing their belief, is suggesting they do.”

“you have now completely offended me. I am being serious here. I expect an apology.

to level the playing field without sacrificing any of our own convictions

From this moment ion you will refer to nmy posts in context or not at all.”

“ah well, I guess I can't sign in. No room for heathens :P
last edited: 9/20/07 7:58:13 PM”

“Rev - That's probably similar to how God feels when His word is taken out of context.

I kept yours IN context. As I've made pretty clear, MY convictions include those where God tells us to proclaim His name, to be thankful, to never be worldly, to be set apart, to act 'in His name'. Jesus spoke highly of John TB. What an odd-ball he was! In other words, not speaking what I feel and believe, to not offend, would be "sacrificing -my- own convictions".

I won't preach when somebody makes the request, but I won't stop being who I am, and I won't hold my tongue for anyone, as the implication here is that we Christians are to do.
last edited: 9/20/07 8:10:13 PM”