School Safety and Gun Control

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MEDFORD, Ore. (AP) — English teacher Shirley Katz insists she needs to take her pistol with her to school because she fears her ex-husband could show up and try to harm her. She's also worried about a Columbine-style attack.

But Katz's district has barred teachers from bringing guns to school, so she is challenging the ban as unlawful, since Oregon is among states that allow people with a permit to carry concealed weapons into public buildings.

"This is primarily about my Second Amendment right and Oregon law and the simple fact that I know it is my right to carry that gun," said Katz, 44, sitting at the kitchen table of her home outside this city of 74,000.

"I have that (concealed weapons) permit. I refuse to let my ex-husband bully me. And I am not going to let the school board bully me, either."

In Oregon, a sheriff can grant a concealed-weapons permit to anyone whose criminal record is clean and who completes a gun-safety course.

Thirty-eight states, along with the District of Columbia, prohibit people from taking guns to school, according to the National Council of State Legislatures. But it's unclear if special weapons permits offer an exemption, since the council does not track such exceptions.

School Superintendent Phil Long insists employees and students are safer without guns on campus. The district plans to make that argument when the case comes before a judge on Thursday.

Katz's request appears to be rare. School security consultant Ken Trump, president of National School Safety and Security Services in Cleveland, said he has never heard of a similar case while working in 45 states.

Katz won't say whether she has ever taken her gun to school, but she practices with it regularly and has thought about what she would do if she had to confront a gunman. She would be sure students were locked in nearby offices out of the line of fire, and she would be ready with her pistol.

"Our safety plan at our school now is that if somebody threatening comes in, you try to avoid eye contact, and do whatever they say, and that is not acceptable anymore," she said. Shootings at Virginia Tech University and the one-room Amish school in Pennsylvania, "reinforced my belief we have to take action, we can't just acquiesce as we have been taught to do."

Katz never owned a gun until she and her then-husband, commercial photographer Gerry Katz, moved to Oregon from Atlanta eight years ago and bought 20 acres on a gravel road in the foothills of the Cascade Range.

"Being out in the country, we just felt we needed to have a gun here for personal safety," she said.

In 2004, Gerry Katz, who had a concealed weapons permit, was arrested for pulling a .38-caliber revolver after a confrontation that began in a parking lot with two men whose car almost hit his.

According to the police report, he did not point the weapon at anyone. The police seized it, and the charges were later dismissed. Gerry Katz said he never went back for his gun.

Shirley Katz said she bought her own gun in 2004 after Gerry Katz grabbed her by the throat and threatened to kill her — an allegation he denies.

He argues that her desire to take her gun to school is about reopening their divorce to get exclusive custody of their 6-year-old daughter.

"She's just scamming everybody," he said. "As soon as this thing started ... I called the principal at her high school and told her ... I am not coming to your school. I am not a threat to her. I have no desire to hurt her."

Oregon had a school shooting in 1998, when student Kip Kinkel killed his parents at home, then drove to school and opened fire in the cafeteria of Thurston High School in Springfield, killing two and wounding 25 others.

Since then, the Legislature has considered barring people with concealed weapons permits from carrying guns in schools, but the bills have failed, said Dori Brattain, general counsel to the Oregon School Boards Association.

Some South Medford students say they are uncomfortable with the idea of a teacher carrying a gun, especially since they cannot bring even scissors to school.

"I totally understand she wants to protect herself," said Lauren Forderer, 16, a junior. "But I don't agree she should bring her problems around 2,000 other people."

Even if she wins, Katz said, she may not bring the gun to school.

"The whole point of carrying concealed is no one should know you're carrying," she said. "So I feel like my carrying concealed on campus now sets me up as a target."”

“Let her carry, let her carry”

“Schools are nice big, soft targets for criminals. And after decades of cases where an armed teacher could have had a chance to stop a shooter, LIBERAL DOUCHE BAGS like violin still would rather teachers and students look at the ground and meekly wait to get shot.

The kids can't even bring scissors?!? Why is it that LIBERAL DOUCHE BAGS like violin want to drag everyone down to the lowest common denominator instead of fixing the damn problems in the first place? Zero tolerance = zero intelligence = LIBERAL DOUCHE BAGS like violin.”

“Tell us what Violin thinks, Fang.

Careful you don't slobber on the keyboard.
last edited: 10/09/07 5:36:29 AM”

“i spy with my little eye, two backpack sniffers”

“Awww, look at the poor lil fwightened puppy. He's getting all worked up.

This shouldn't even really be an isuue - setting the gun laws aside - you think your ex husband is a serious threat - then don't go hang out in a room full of children on a daily basis.

Some people are incredibly selfish - 'I won't be bullied by must ex so I'll these kids in danger too'. Dumb #&%!$....... sounds like you'd get on Muttly - considered writing her for a date?”

“No, that was just my gratuitous insult post of the day.

you think your ex husband is a serious threat - then don't go hang out in a room full of children on a daily basis. - y2

Are you serious? You'd prefer to lie down like a #&%!$ for a bully? Wait, on second thought I'm not suprised.

'I won't be bullied by must ex so I'll these kids in danger too'. - y2

Typical liberal to assign guilt to everyone and everything EXCEPT the person responsible - in this case the assh0le ex.”

“More wheelbarrows than backpacks around here.”

“Pack sniffer who plays with weapons=wanker.

"I totally understand she wants to protect herself," said Lauren Forderer, 16, a junior. "But I don't agree she should bring her problems around 2,000 other people."

What the kid said.

If I had a kid in that school I would want to see that teacher either removed or quit on her own.

Shirley Katz can stand up to the bully if she wants to but hiding behind the kids is out of the question.”

“MarkO's a b!tch, too, apparently willing to abandon his livelihood and run away rather than stand up to a bully. Oh wait, MarkO's a housewife. He'd have his husband take care of matters.

Not just dumb...MarkO dumb.”

“Sorry libbies every little trite line you use keeps being blown out of the water by FACTS....

When Mass Killers Meet
Armed Citizen Resistance
freestudents.blogspot.com
4-25-7


It took place at a university in Virginia. A student with a grudge, an immigrant, pulled a gun and went on a shooting spree. It wasn't Virginia Tech at all. It was the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, not far away. You can easily drive from the one school to the other, just take a trip down Route 460 through Tazewell.

It was January 16, 2002 when Peter Odighizuwa came to campus. He had been suspended due to failing grades. Odighizuwa was angry and waving a gun calling on students to "come get me". The students, seeing the gun, ran. A shooting spree started almost immediately. In seconds Odighizuwa had killed the school dean, a professor and one student. Three other students were shot as well, one in the chest, one in the stomach and one in the throat.

Many students heard the shots. Two who did were Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges. Mikael was outside the school having just returned to campus from lunch when he heard the shots. Tracy was inside attending class. Both immediately ran to their cars. Each had a handgun locked in the vehicle.

Bridges pulled a .357 Magnum pistol and he later said he was prepared to shoot to kill if necessary. He and Gross both approached Odighizuwa at the same time from different directions. Both were pointing their weapons at him. Bridges yelled for Odighizuwa to drop his weapon. When the shooter realized they had the drop on him he threw his weapon down. A third student, unarmed, Ted Besen, approached the killer and was physically attacked.

But Odighizuwa was now disarmed. The three students were able to restrain him and held him for the police. Odighizuwa is now in prison for the murders he committed. His killing spree ended when he faced two students with weapons. There would be no further victims that day, thanks to armed resistance.

You wouldn't know much about that though. Do you wonder why? The media, though it widely reported the attack left out the fact that Bridges and Gross were armed. Most simply reported that the gunman was jumped and subdued by other students. That two of those students were now armed didn't get a mention.

James Eaves-Johnson wrote about this fact one week later in The Daily Iowan. He wrote: "A Lexus-Nexis search revealed 88 stories on the topic, of which only two mentioned that either Bridges or Gross was armed." This 2002 article noted "This was a very public shooting with a lot of media coverage." But the media left out information showing how two students with firearms ended the killing spree.

He also mentioned a second incident. And while I had read many articles on this shooting for an article I wrote about school bullying not a single one mentioned the role that a firearm played in stopping it. Until today I didn't know the full story.

Luke Woodham was a troubled teen. He felt no one really liked him. In 1997 he murdered his mother and put on a trench coat. He filled the pockets with ammunition and took a handgun to the Pearl High School in Pearl, Mississippi. In rapid succession killed two students and wounded seven others.

He had the incident planned out. He would start shooting students and continue until he heard police sirens in the distance. That would allow him time to get in his car and leave campus. From there he intended to go to the nearby Pearl Junior High School and start shooting again. How it would end was not clear. Perhaps he would kill himself or perhaps the police would finally catch up with him and kill him. Either way a lot more people were going to get shot and die.

What Woodham hadn't planned for was the actions of Assistant Principal Joel Myrick. Myrick heard the gun shots. He couldn't have a handgun in the school. But he did keep one locked in his vehicle in the parking lot. He ran outside and retrieved the gun.

As Myrick headed back toward the school Woodham was in his vehicle headed for his next intended target. Myrick aimed his gun at the shooter. The teen crashed his car when he saw the gun. Myrick approached the car and held a gun to the killer who surrendered immediately. There would be no further victims that day, thanks to armed resistance.

So you didn't know about that. Neither did I until today. Eaves- Johnson wrote that there were "687 articles on the school shooting in Pearl, Miss. Of those, only 19 mentioned that" Myrick had used a gun to stop Woodham "four-and-a-half minutes before police arrived."

Many people probably forgot about the shooting in Edinboro, Pennsylvania. It was a school graduation dance that Andrew Wurst entered to take out his anger on the school. First he shot teacher John Gillette outside. He started shooting randomly inside the restaurant where the 240 students had gathered.

It was restaurant owner James Strand, armed with a shot gun, who captured the shooter and held him for police. There would be no further victims that day, thanks to armed resistance.

It was February 12th of this year that a young man entered the Trolley Square Shopping Mall, in Salt Lake City. The mall was a self- declared "gun free zone" forbidding patrons from carrying weapons. He wasn't worried. In fact he appreciated knowing that his victims couldn't defend themselves.

He opened fire even before he got inside killing his first victims immediately outside the front door. As he walked down the mall hallway he fired in all directions. Several more people were shot inside a card store immediately inside the mall. The shooter moved on to the Pottery Barns Kids store.

What he didn't know is that one patron of the mall, Kenneth Hammond, had ignored the signs informing patrons they must be unarmed to enter. He was a police officer but he was not on duty and he was not a police officer for Salt Lake City. By all standards he was a civilian that day and probably should have left his firearm in his vehicle.

It's a good thing he didn't. He was sitting in the mall with his wife having dinner when he heard the shots. He told her to hide and to call 911 emergency services. He went to confront the gunman. The killer found himself under gun fire much sooner than he anticipated. From this point on all his effort was to protect himself from Hammond, he had no time to kill anyone else. Hammond was able to pin down the shooter until police finally arrived and one of them shot the man to death. There would be no further victims that day, thanks to armed resistance.

In each of these cases a killer is stopped the moment he faces armed resistance. It is clear that in three of these cases the shooter intended to continue his killing spree. In the fourth case, Andrew Wurst, it is not immediately apparent whether he intended to keep shooting or not since he was apprehended by the restaurant owner leaving the scene.

Three of these cases involved armed resistance by students, faculty or civilians. In one case the armed resistance was from an off-duty police officer in a city where he had no legal authority and where he was carrying his weapon in violation of the mall's gun free policy.

What would have happened if these people waited for the police? In three cases the shooters were apprehended before the police arrived because of armed civilians. At Trolley Square the shooter was kept busy by Hammond until the police arrived. In all four cases the local police were the Johnny-come-latelys.

Consider the horrific events at Virginia Tech. Again an armed man enters a "gun free zone". He kills two victims and walks away long before the police arrive. He spends two hours on campus, doing what is unknown. He then enters another building on campus and begins shooting. He never encounters a police officer during this. And all the students and faculty present had apparently complied with the "no gun" policy of the university. So no one stopped him. NO ONE STOPPED HIM! And when he finished his shooting spree 32 people were dead. It was the killer who ended the spree. He took his own life and when the police arrived all they dealt with were the dead.

There were many further victims that day. The shooter never met with armed resistance.

NOTICE: This is one in a series of articles dealing with the issues of gun control, gun free zones and self defense. To find an index of all these article follow this link.

http://www.rense.com/general76/armed.htm
WHOOPS”

“You don't even address the real concern for the safety of the kids, Fang.
Or maybe you don't comprehend.

To you it's just another oportunity to sling your cheap insults...................and to sniff packs.”

“Not just scared - puppy pee scared.

So give me a scenario where this works out well for the kids at the school.

1) nothing happens, but they still have to sit in a classroom under the threat that somethign may happen.

2) He comes in with a gun firing, shoots her before she draws the gun, her and a few kids die - he shoots himself.

3) He comes in with a gun, misses, she manages to draw her gun - she shoots him, stray bullets still rattling around the classrom, kids who have nothing to do with this die.

4) The gun does act as a deterrant, so he goes to her house and shoots her while she's getting into the car.

5) Gun nuts try to use the fact that this woman hooked up with a psycho to make carrying a weapon common place in High Schools.”

“#1 is about the best anyone could hope for, regardless of which school we're talking about. What's certain is that no-self-defense policies put people at further risk.”

“Mark it's a simple fact that you're about the least-bright fuegonaut here. If that insults you, that's YOUR doing, not mine.”

“OR better yet WHY2...how bout we put signs in the yards of our homes. Mine would say, "I am armed, I do carry and I do practice, go for it."

Yours could say,"This house is opposes the use of violence to solve anything. As a result please take notice the vaseline is in the first bathroom on the right. We would appreciate the consideration."


LOL...libbies..when will you learn to accept the fact that this is a world RULED by the willingness to use violent force?

let look at the scenarios.

#2. He would not stroll down the hall with the gun drawn without attracting some attention. Most shooters are going to pull upon entry or they will wait until they have made a point. Each of which gives the few seconds necessary to draw and shoot.

#3 Bullets will not rattle around the classroom (except in your cartoons and TV shows) they normally impact and stick. Most classrooms are sheetrock or plaster based. Additionally I would hope she is proficient with the weapon. If not she does not need a conceal carry permit.

#4 Another libbie fantasy, HE HUNTS HER DOWN...(LOL) So this has happened HOW many times in reality? Either way the kids are safe. I would much rather have a scuzzball come after me personally than take me on where innocents are involved.

#5 OOOOH you mean people...common citizens taking RESPONSIBILITY for their own protection?....OOOOH that has historically HORRIBLE examples (LOL)....How bout this, Automobiles kill more people every year than anything. We pass a law that only PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS (LOL) be allowed to operate vehicles. These are tested annually etc. HMMM...wanna try that protection?”

“Wow, Axis Of Idiots are Pack Sniffers!!

No surprise!”

“#2. He would not stroll down the hall with the gun drawn without attracting some attention. Most shooters are going to pull upon entry or they will wait until they have made a point. Each of which gives the few seconds necessary to draw and shoot.
You have absolutely no idea how he'll behave - if it's her she's targeting then he's unlikely to be running down the corridor gun drawn

#3 Bullets will not rattle around the classroom (except in your cartoons and TV shows) they normally impact and stick. Most classrooms are sheetrock or plaster based. Additionally I would hope she is proficient with the weapon. If not she does not need a conceal carry permit. [Pointless detail doesn't devalue the point - lets preplace rattling with flying shall we?]

#4 Another libbie fantasy, HE HUNTS HER DOWN...(LOL) So this has happened HOW many times in reality? Either way the kids are safe. I would much rather have a scuzzball come after me personally than take me on where innocents are involved. - she's already claims he'll hunt her down, just in the school.

#5 OOOOH you mean people...common citizens taking RESPONSIBILITY for their own protection?....OOOOH that has historically HORRIBLE examples (LOL)....How bout this, Automobiles kill more people every year than anything. We pass a law that only PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS (LOL) be allowed to operate vehicles. These are tested annually etc. HMMM...wanna try that protection?”

No I mean nuts trying to use individual scenarios to justify their own gun fetishes.

Five years wouldn't be too bad. I have to go renew every five years anyway, twenty minutes confirming driving competancy after havving to probably sit there for two hours anyway wouldn't be bad given the number of morons on the roads.”

“An M-16 is a better choice in this situation.”

“Fire her ass and give her a desk job at the Police Dept.

Is her eX a gun nut?  Has his concealed carry permit been pulled yet, or would that Infringe on his Second Amendment Rights?”

“Well, Ms Katz has lost most of the advantage of concealed carry. Everyone now knows she carries .

This gives her Ex (if he really is after her) the options of engaging at long distance like Lee Harvey Oswald, or a surprise attack like Pearl Harbor, as a concealed weapon by necessity has to be small, and a small weapon (by physics) is short range. He now has a third option, get her at the one place she cannot carry, her place of employment.

Do we allow Police to carry at schools ?? yes!!, but Police are human and one or two of them have gone off the rails
"Off-duty Wisconsin deputy kills 6"
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071008/NEWS07/71008012/0/ENT04

So why not let a citizen who has had appropriate background checks in order to get a concealed carry permit carry wherever Police do ??
Coupled to this should be the same competence testing required of police also. Qualifying at a range, and some classroom time each year to review State law on when you can shoot.

This would give the schools a faster response to help if or when someone goes off the deep end at that facility.

In each of the 'successful' cases cited by Fuegofox above the helpers were breaking the law. The Students and Assistant Principal were breaking the law by having the firearms on campus[i] even in their cars.

They each apparently decided that it was better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. They also truly did practice 'concealed' carry which is why they did have their firearms available when needed.”

“Well why not have a school - if the school board deems it necessary - nomintate two or more people who can have access to firearms on school property. They need to go regular training at the range and weapons, not to be kept in the classroom, should be kept in staff only area under lock and key?

Good use of an NRA catchphrase there Manuka - you should get a free hat.”

“To be honest with with you, I can see there are some incidents where concealed carry in schools could save lives - stopping a spree killing at three lives instead of ten, ten instead of thirty - but you also up the probability of shootings (not necessarily spree killings) in schools.

Do you ban 18-year-old students from taking a weapon to school, or do you have twenty, fifty, one hundred plus teenagers all carring guns into the classroom?

Also what then happens at the points of concflict which occur in schools every day - the arguments with teachers, the fights between pupils.

Again the pro-gun lobby is here advocating all the upsides of wider gun ownership without accepting ANY of the negatives.
last edited: 10/09/07 9:37:44 AM”

“"should be kept in staff only area under lock and key?

Y2
9:30:32 AM
10/09/07"

Preferably in a safe, average school lock and key is not too secure.
But the idea is good and removes most of the limitations of a concealed carry firearm, short range, poor accuracy (without a lot of practice).

But should police be allowed to carry on campus?? If you truly want gun free there should be no exceptions.

And what should the penalty be when someone breaks the gun-free-zone law?
The crazy will ignore it, and they have in almost every school shooting incident, under what circumstances do you allow an exception, to go remove the crazy.”

“Qualifying at a range, and some classroom time........

Ha ha ha !!!

Target shooting in the classroom??

Brilliant!!”

“More guns.... More crazies with guns.”

“Y2,

Do you ban 18-year-old students from taking a weapon to school, or do you have twenty, fifty, one hundred plus teenagers all carrying guns into the classroom?

Absolutely, only people with a concealed carry permit, with increased restrictions on carry permits as I suggested, same proficiency qualifying as police, and annual review of State laws on when/where they can be used. I would support a minimum age for carry also. Drivers under 25 years cannot rent a car, that sounds about right.

Also what then happens at the points of concflict which occur in schools every day - the arguments with teachers, the fights between pupils.

This is where I prefer your "firearms in a non-classroom safe" suggestion.

Again the pro-gun lobby is here advocating all the upsides of wider gun ownership without accepting ANY of the negatives.

True for some, not for others, but you must admit the silliness is present on both sides here as well.
last edited: 10/09/07 9:58:45 AM”

“Well the aim is not a gun free zone for its own sake - the aim is to create the safest possible environment for children and young people.

I'm sure we'll have different opinions as to what will is constructive to this - but it's certainly not to create a gun-free environment for it's own sake. As such you also need to apply common sense.”

“The idea of allowing university students to carry concealed weapons is a difficult one for me. My kids are Virginia Tech students. In light of the massacre, I have asked myself if I would support allowing students to carry concealed weapons.

If either of my kids' lives were threatened on campus by some wacko with a gun, would I want my kids to be able to carry a weapon in order to protect themselves. Yes, absolutely. But on the other hand, do I think students walking around with concealed weapons adds postively to the learning experience. Not really.

So I am on the fence on this one.”

“It helps add positively to the living experience for the non-criminals. That's enough for me.”

“You wouldn't know much about that though. Do you wonder why? The media, though it widely reported the attack left out the fact that Bridges and Gross were armed. Most simply reported that the gunman was jumped and subdued by other students. That two of those students were now armed didn't get a mention.

Your blog fails to mention that the two students were cops.

And I think Mr. Iowa just sucks at research?”

“And did I miss a mention that they retrieved their weapons from their cars????”

“Pistol Packin' PHDs. Where is sanity Mr.Bill?????”

“ban cars
last edited: 10/09/07 10:23:08 AM”

“So hold on now. All the gun talk aside.

Battered women should lose their jobs if they work with kids because their Exes are violent?

So when is the violent offender going to be dealt with accordingly? Or is it just easier to blacken a battered woman's other eye?”

“Battered women should lose their jobs if they work with kids because their Exes are violent? - Humanpackmule

According to Y2 and MarkO, yes. Lovely people, aren't they?”

“The right to bear arms, that is the law”

“You can not have possibly thought through that position. I really don't want firearms around my kids either but damn people.

That's absolutely effing insane.”

“The Ex has been charged with assault on her?”

“Nope, she alleges it according to the article. For all we know she could be using this whole thing as a tool in her child custody case.”

“Not in school it ain't, Davey.

"Battered women should lose their jobs if they work with kids because their Exes are violent?" - Humanpackmule

According to Y2 and MarkO, yes. Lovely people, aren't they?”
Cujo

Fang, you are a stinkin' liar.

If the woman's presence is a danger to the students common sense would require her removal until the threat is dealt with.”

“The only real reason the Socialists want your guns is so they will no "problem" when they take power.”

“See?

It's the battered woman's fault, in MarkO's eyes.

What a scumbag.”

“So when her ex stalks her at school and she fires shots at him and kills a kid, what then?”

“You twist the words, Fang.

You are a chicken-neck, yellow-back faggot.

Oh yeah, and a pack sniffer.”

“Wow, not only are you a misogynist, you're a homophobe, too.”

“Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!

MarkO said the "f" word!”

“Does your mother know that you're queer, Fang?”

“I immortalized your hate in the Classic TT Quotes thread, Mark88

first solitary hiker88 comes out, now Mark88.”

“MaRkO will claim it's a "joke", now.”