Camp Fires

“I recently spent a weekend in the Shenandoah National Park. I was very pleased with what I found. The park was in excellent condition. The trails were clean and well marked. Wildlife was everywhere despite a heavy load of humans. While I did see signs of illegal camping (and one actual illegal camp site) I didn't see the overall destruction around the trail that I have seen in places like Red River Gorge.

I have decided that much of this is attributed to the fact that fires are prohibited in the Shenandoah. More accurately, fires are only permitted in specific areas where fire pits and fireplaces have been constructed. You can camp most anywhere given some common-sense guidelines but you can only have fires in very restrictive areas. I have decided this is an enlightened policy that reflects a true value for conservation and respect for natural resources.

Now I won't claim to not enjoy a good fire... those that know me will probably be rolling their eyes as they read this. That said, I never make a fire when I hike alone. A campfire, like TT, is really a social thing for me and I prefer to just hike, flop down and sleep, get up and keep hikin'. I'll also admit that if it were the case that camp fires were well managed that in fact they would not be a problem.

In my experience, however, the vast majority of them are in fact not well managed. The combination of illegal camping with camp fires is in my opinion massively destructive. Anyone that has hiked in Red River Gorge and has had to pass through camp site after camp site staring at fire rings littered with rusting cans and other trash knows what I am talking about... people camping ON the trail or right NEXT TO the trail with a blazing fire going so they can "burn" their trash. Yeah, these people LOVE the Red... the are loving it to death.

I really think that the model for camp fires used in the Shenandoah and other parks is something that should be more widespread.

I know there is a huge difference between a National Park and a National Forest. Yet just because something is permissible doesn't make it right. People with a passion for these resources should be their stewards and promote by example the values of conservation we would expect others to follow.”

“concur.

Similar policy is in place in Rocky Mtn - in fact most of the summer, fires are banned completely - and in several campsites (most) fires are banned year round.

It's more a function of risk out here in the arid west, but it does contribute to a nicer environment.”

“There is a ban on fire in Southern Indiana and we had just as much fun camping along the Knobstone Trail without one as we would have had with one. I didn't miss it really. That said, there is a time and a place for campfires, and when it's the right place they are fun.”

“I agree about the Gorge. It could use a fire ban in backcountry areas. Besides, I've found a good lantern can *almost* serve the same purpose, at least it gives some light to sit around and bs.”

“Some of you all don't even need light to bs :P :D”

“The eastern zone of the High Peaks Wilderness in the Adirondacks has had a fire ban for several years now. The area has also adopted other regulations to help keep backpacker's impact down as well, such as no camping above 4,000' and camping only at designated sites above 3,500'.”

“I haven't been to either area, but what I am led to believe is that the SNP is easily accessible to, and used mostly by, dayhikers while the RRG is more backpacking or basecamping. Also, that would make SNP more observable by rangers and other groups. Is that correct? If so, then that would make a big difference to the condition of the trails and campsites.”

“RRG is easily accessible to dayhikers. The maps made by outrageGIS (http://www.outragegis.com) that are so popular are basically tons of dayhikes. I frequently see dayhikers in the Gorge, but I can't speak to the volume relative to backpackers. I am betting the Forest Service can since the set up checkpoints on a regular basis and collect survey data. You need a permit to overnight but you don't need one to dayhike.
last edited: 10/17/07 8:59:08 AM”

“Agreed. i seldom, if ever, build a fire when hiking solo.”

“Yes, the SNP is easily accessible from various metropolitan areas. Although it might be observable by rangers, I really don't think they are out on the trails that much. In the seven years or so that I have been hiking the SNP, I've never seen a ranger on the trail. Only a ridge runner on the AT. I've seen plenty of rangers ride around in cars on the Skyline Drive though. I don't think they have enough personnel for both.

I think that the PATC and other volunteers are to be credited with the good conditions of the trails. If they find an illegal campsite, they usually dismantle the fire ring and try to otherwise mitigate the damage. I also think the rule of no campfires has had a positive affect on the park as Jimmy San mentioned.

Yes, there are probably many more dayhikers than backpackers. The overlooks and the AT can be very crowded with day hikers, but once you hit a blue blaze trail, you can hike all day and not see a soul.”

“A human soul perhaps but I would not bet on not seeing a BEAR soul. Good lord the place was crawling with the things! That so many can live in such a small area is amazing! What a great place.”

“What the Lumbering Axe Murderer said, that area of The Adirondacks looks good.

What's happ'nin', Nimblefang?”

“LOL, I have read that they average one bear per square mile! If you want to see bears, just find a trail with lots of fresh scat.

I hiked up there for years without seeing one, and then I saw three in the same day! Two juveniles up in trees eating acorns, and one big huge mama bear! I called out to let mama bear know I was there and then moved on. As I was coming around a bend in the trail, she came bounding accross the trail from a huge rock above me. She was running in the direction of her babies. I am not sure which mama was more startled by the encounter!”

“I've seen lots of bear crap in parts of the Cranberry Wilderness but never any critters.

Maybe if I go there with Fridgy I'd see one.”

“I like campfires. I build one every chance I get. Crowds and no fires are places I avoid.”

“I'm not opposed to campfires in general. I just find it a pain to make one, so I'm glad to enjoy one if somebody else makes it, but otherwise I'm happy to just enjoy the surroundings without fire.”

“Not much MarkO. I've been working on a wolf census project for the DNR cuz there's so many in my area (that and I can count). I can't tell for sure which ones I've counted since they all look alike and won't go by my stand single file and in one direction, so I've decided to start shooting 'em and count them all in a row.”

“camping ON the trail or right NEXT TO the trail

the nerve! they should ticket those bastards, right jimmy?”

“Fire good.




I can get by without one and have on many occasion, but I find that when I have no fire I usually feel like going to bed right after dinner.”

“Does this mean no campfires on the Trap Hills hike this Friday?”

“IMO the campfire restriction leads to improved conditions by the simple reason that groups of people go elsewhere to camp - fewer groups results in less trash/overuse and fewer "improved" campsites. For example it is my opinion that few TT trips go to SNP for just this reason - its just not a TT trip without a campfire to BS around.”

“Or if in SNP, TT has a "Grey" fire, no HOI?”

“but,but the boogie man will get you if you don't have a fire

”

“That dude's scary!
I only miss a fire when it's cold out. I've been on group trips to North Manitou Island, and Pictured rocks where no fires were permitted. We used Cindylu's alcohol stove once
and it served just as well as a campfire.
When it's just Birch and me we rarely start a fire, but pack a candle lantern. I'd rather look up than at the fire, truthfully.

Jimmysan, I always thought you were part beaver, part firebug! You raise very valid points though.”

“we were lucky that time bearmagnet - that ranger accepted the logic that the small BBQ grill wasn't a campfire - still and all I thought for sure she was going to get out the book when she saw those beer cans on the ground”

“What Bear cannister?

Sorry - that still kills me! LOL!”

“So basically what you're saying Jimmy San, is that if one of the more environmentally destructive camping practices - campfires - is prohibited, it would result in less impact on the wilderness. Man that's genius right there. I never would have thought of that.”

“A good fire is always a good thing, those who cannot clean up after themselve should not cause controls to restrict my enjoyments.”

“Cleaning up after one's self has nothing to do with it. The ban (at least in the case I posted earlier) has to do with the impact caused by people collecting fire wood. There was a point just before the ban went in effect, that there wasn't a single tree around Lake Colden that had limbs less than 20' from the ground. All the deadfall and low limbs had all been burned.”

“when i troll i have the stones to do so using my tt name. many others aren't skilled enough at it and/or are so cowardly that they must hide behind a special id to offer their trollish comments.”

“Burn the bastards at the next campfire.”

“Pros; “Does this mean no campfires on the Trap Hills hike this Friday?”

We got Jimmy to saw the wood and Randall to manage it during pouring rain. We good to go.....”

“I don't use a camp fire when camping alone.

For me, making a fire adds the risk of getting burned.”

“Small heavily used area's, I would agree on, with no fires, and sensitive areas (watershed's)etc within National and State Forest lands that would never be logged.
Other than these types of area's, I don't see any problems with fires”

“i was posting about poorly managed fires and specifically those you see from people that choose to camp illegally. in snp they ban fires and have specific camping regulations. people still camp illegally because they are pathetic but at least they don't do the type of damage to snp that you see in rrg.”

“In YNP, you are not allowed to have fires above 9600ft(? could be 9700 or 10K). I have only come across one 'fire pit' above that elevation and I may be alive, or one of my friends, because of it. I have not often, ever, come across burned trash or cans, since the backcountry rangers and volunteers do such a good job of cleaning up or perhaps we ourselves do. However, I have seen my share of blackened granite where fires have been built and shouldn't have. I have witnessed those same backcountry rangers deconstrcuting those very same illegal fire pits.

I still question this logic, even though I am sure there is good reasoning for having no fires above a certain elevation, like less trees above timberline, long term recovery rates, and damage to fragile ecosystems and wildlife habitat, but what I don't get is fires allowed right in the midst of a dense forest with massive undergrowth that is dry due to drought conditions. Imagine how much more damage an untended fire can cause in this situation?”

“The difference is that one is a National Forest and one is a National Park. The funding for National Parks allows much more enforcement and maintenance.”

“Well Jimmy I'm thinking that the people who camp on the trails at RRG aren't going to follow fire restrictions either. It'd be best to just gate off the whole area and disallow college kids in. They seem to be the biggest offenders down there. You know the type; the guy's carrying a cooler and backpack and the girlfriend's carrying grocery sacks of snack and food?”

“like i said, the practice of illegal camping with a fire is particularly abused and highly destructive. law enforcement should start handing out tickets. hit people for $150/tent for illegal camping and $250 for a fire at an illegal camp site (these are both currently offenses that you can be cited for... no new rules here). a group of three tents with a fire would return $700. if 80% of this went back to enforcement that's $560. That's a pretty good return on investment for a ranger to go hiking in the woods in the evening, especially based on my experience in the red where 3-4 of these could be handed out within 1 mile of most trailheads.”

“provincial Parks and National parks in Canada have designated campsites on the trails,each campsite has a fire pit,while this does cut down on illegal campsites the fire pits are definitely abused and are used as garbage pits all to often.It`s disheartening to finally reach your designated campsite only to find the fire pit full of chocolate bar wrappers,beer bottles,bread,old sweaters etc...

I remember on one 3 day trip five of us brought a full garbage each of trash from the campsites we stayed at.... sickening.

What gets me is why you can lug a 24 of beer into the bush full,but it`s too heavy to lug out empty ? I see that all the time and it drives me bonkers that and water bottles littered all over the trail.
last edited: 10/18/07 5:22:04 AM”

“because people suck and they are lazy”

“That's trail rats for you. What can you expect from people who think going walking on a well worn, fully-blazed trail is getting out in the wilderness. Trails are like a little piece of suburban sidewalk in the woods, and they are treated as such by the suburbanites who fancy themselves nature lovers.

Oh and Jimmy, this is my halloween handle. Simply clicking on my handle would have tipped you off, had you been bright enough to figure that out.”

“youre more like benji”

“If I am building a fire in an area without an established fire ring, I use a Fire Blanket. We only burn small stuff (a fire the size of a basketball will MORE than suffice in most cases for 6 or 8 people) and I make it to where my fire totally consumes all the wood.

In the morning you rewet all the remains (that was put out the night before) Then you distribute the ashes around the area so as to LEAVE NO TRACE. Then you clean off the fire blanket and put it in your pack. Its a tad heavy in comparison but MORE than worth it.

The problem I see is most people think a fire has to be some MASSIVE THING....sorry but something the size of a legal folder Opened up is fine. Plus it will most often ash everything you put into it.”

“I've never seen this fire blanket that you speak of. It sounds like a pita.”

“I like fires when appropriate.”

“xl is a granola-crunching tree-hugger”

“When we camped on the new river gorge trail there weren't any campsites so we made our own. I don't feel bad about building a fire, even a big one. Especially since we built it in an existing depression that we lined the bottom with bricks we found scattered around. Then we made seats out of an old rusty 5 gallon oil can and another one from an old muffler. Not all sites are pristine before we get there.”

“sittin on a muffler...sounds kinda "Blazing Saddles" to me..............”

“mutt is so cute. he thinks i was referring to him when i posted about spineless pathetic trolling. i wonder why he would think that?”