To those who served and paid the price . ......

“and to those who haved served for their respective countries be it regular force reserve,national guard or minute men...a salute to you for the freedoms we have and a heartfelt thank-you.

To all who have served THANK-YOU.”

“and to those who haved served for their respective countries

I echo that sentiment, except for the line above. No thank you to the servicemen of certain countries, ... Iran, NK, China, Russia, France, and others ...”

“Sarge In regards to Russia I used to feel the same way.When I was in the service,we were taught how evil and expansionist the USSR was as I`m sure anyone serving in the Allies Armed Service was.


I`ve since traveled to the Former Soviet Union a few times and have friends who were former Soviet soldiers.They are no different then you or me,their military taught them we were the evil empires and expansionist, they were taught we`d drop the first nuke.. as kids they even had nuclear attack drill at the public schools.So I`ve since come to realize that soldiers are for the most part the same every where doing their bit for their nations.”

“paddles, personally it doesn't matter to me how similar the soldiers are to the nice people of the world. They go to work for an evil empire, so I offer them no thanks. It doesn't matter if they were drafted or volunteered, their service is not to be commended.

(full disclosure - I have a family member who recently was drafted (he's since served his time and left) into an offshoot of the Russian army and despised every minute of it.) I offer him no thanks, he is not happy with his service, and we both are relieved it's over.
last edited: 11/09/07 6:52:45 AM”

“so do we blame paddles for not realizing that some bozo would turn this fuego, or do we blame the bozo for sargeifying the non-fuego thread?”

“Your still in your costume. For god sakes, take it off and shower!”

“crash - not honoring some soldiers is no more fuego than honoring other soldiers”

“yea, paddles is such a horrible guy for showing respect to other people.

shame, paddles.”

“Uh? Are you implying that I'm a horrible guy for not showing respect for military action by our enemies? I don't think either one is "fuego", first of all, and secondly, since when is anyone posting on fuego automatically associated with being a "horrible guy". Only horrible people talk about politics and religion? Troll much crash?”

“While I certainly offer thanks to those who "paid the price" during military service, Memorial Day is the holiday where we honor those. Veteran's Day is intended to honor all those who served in the military, not only those who died. So this is an opportunity to seek out those military veterans who are still living and tell them "Thank you!"”

“Hey, how about we ignore the flamer and just pretend this is a thread to honor those who have served (Like it was intended)?

I for one would like to thank

Tahoe
Refridgerator
Pathman
Nimblefoot
MarkO
Birch
Sgt Rock

and all the other TTers who served their country in the armed forces. Bless you all.”

“Hey, how about we ignore the flamer

Right! I was way out of line for not wanting to honor those in the militaries of our enemies. Shame on me. I'm so mean. That wasn't very PC of me on this national (international?) holiday. Ignore the big mean monster...

Get real Sass.

I suppose you think powltry is flaming too for clarifying the holiday further as well? Of course not. He's not mean old Sarge which you often lie about.
last edited: 11/09/07 7:28:11 AM”

“This is a national holiday for those that served this country. For those that don't understand the importance of that - you're the flamer. Take it elsewhere. Don't hijack this country with your political correctness. It's gotten to the point of complete absurdity. I don't know how you can say some of the things you in that camp say with a straight face anymore.

God bless America.”

“Sarge is correct that this is an American holiday, although other countries have similar ones. Let's not forget, though, that the Russians were our allies in the past, particularly important ones during WWII. From my admittedly limited knowledge of WWII history, I would argue that it may have been impossible to beat Hitler without the Russians knocking at his eastern doorstep. I'm sure there were lots of Americans saying "God Bless Russia" in the 1940s.”

“Gotta agree with Sarge here. I don't see the flame in Sarge's original post. He was posting an opinion.

However, I do see the flames from crash and sass very clearly.

I think there is a double standard here.”

“Do I thank the Brits and Canadians that stormed the beachs of Gold, Juno, and Sword? Hell yes. Do I thank the German on top of the cliff, hell no.”

“it goes without saying that youre not going to thank the soldiers of all countries, especially hostile countries. so to bring it up is just being argumentative.

really, its about tone. based on his demeanor since hes been posting, i would say paddles intent was not to ruffle anyones feathers. im sure he didnt mean to offend you, sarge, and im sure he wasnt thinking "wow those nazi soldiers and those iranian soldiers, theyre a swell buncha guys". you, on the other hand, are always looking for an argument, and dont care what solemn atmosphere you muck up

theres a time and a place for everything, sarge. learn something about appropriateness, will you?”

“I'm sure there were lots of Americans saying "God Bless Russia" in the 1940s.

That was another era, but even if you single those soldiers, let's not basterdize this American holiday.”

“not saying that i agree or disagree, btw. just saying theres a time and a place

also not saying im always appropriate.”

“it goes without saying that youre not going to thank the soldiers of all countries, especially hostile countries. so to bring it up is just being argumentative.

Well, if you read this thread, you'll see you are not correct. Others are saying that soldiers of hostile countries are worth celebrating on this national holiday. You're simply wrong, and if you read this thread, you'll see that.

you, on the other hand, are always looking for an argument, and dont care what solemn atmosphere you muck up

It's true that I don't care what solumn atmosphere I muck up, especially when things like American principles are being torn apart by political correctness. To me, that is the greater offense. It is not true that I'm always looking for an argument. That is your incorrect opinion. To the contrary, I simply wanted to clarify that those soldiers are not to be commended on this day. I think that just because you THINK that is my intention, that is how you read my posts, but you are wrong. To that, I swear.”

“not saying that i agree or disagree, btw. just saying theres a time and a place

(yes, I'm yelling, for emphasis...)

IF ANY TIME THERE IS A TIME AND A PLACE TO SPEAK UP WHEN DISCUSSING WHO TO HONOR ON THIS AMERICAN HOLIDAY, WHEN PEOPLE ARE WANTING TO HONOR ALL SOLDIERS OF ALL NATIONS, CLEARLY THAT WOULD BE ONE OF THOSE TIMES.”

“maybe if you put it in bold and italics i might get it better”

“let's hope so”

“"It's true that I don't care what solumn atmosphere I muck up, especially when things like American principles are being torn apart by political correctness."

Blow things out of proportion much?”

“Maybe I don't live in a real world but this place breaks my heart so many times. I don't want a reply from anyone. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone...I just don't get it why there has to be an argument over EVERYTHING!

Next thing you know there will be a fight over the photos on the Fall Photography and Wildlife thread.

How can any of you even think of backpacking together? I don't know that I would want to be in the woods with some of you for fear you would turn on me in the middle of a hike if I didn't agree with what you said.

I know everyone has an opinions and beliefs but sometimes it is best that we keep them in our pockets!

That said...I haven't forgotten what this thread is truely about. I have friends that are overseas right now and fear for their safety. For those of you who have served...thank you so much for fighting for the freedom for all of us to have this silly place to come and argue.”

“paddles,

I am a U.S. veteran. Thank you!

But lemme ask a couple of questions...

You are recognizing all veterans from every country for having performed their respective military duties... does your salute include say, veterans of Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Hirohito's Japan, Stalin's USSR, Pol Pot's Cambodia, the Taliban, Alqueda, et. al.? I'm also curious to understand the reasoning behind your claim that the actions of some of those armies have served "the freedoms we (Americans?) have" ...?

With all due respect, it is one thing to commend the reasonable moral codes under which many armies try to operate all over the world and throughout history; it is another matter to salute the unprovoked actions of enemies and former enemies for performing duties that are/were harmful to us. I suspect even Alqueda veterans understand this.

As a fallen, imperfect human being, I can certainly respect anyone's willingness (including my enemy) to put his/her life on the line in self-defense toward a cause s/he believes to be morally worthy. But to salute my enemy veterans for aggressive actions toward subverting my freedoms and/or injuring/killing my family, friends and countrymen in the process would be morally repugnant as far as I'm concerned.

No offense intended ...just my $.02.
last edited: 11/09/07 8:23:05 AM”

“I just don't get it why there has to be an argument over EVERYTHING!
crazygurl
10:12:18 AM
11/09/07


Is not.”

“cg, paddles, and others

i apologize for adding fuel to the fire”

“You were the fuel and the fire crash. Don't misunderestimate the legitamacy of defending this holiday for what it was intended.

The milquetoast inaction and fear of offending others for defending this countries principle of freedom ranks up there with the worst things imaginable.”

“It's not "everyone" who turns "everything" into an argument here.

(Let's see who tries to argue with that.)”

“MarkO, you just argued with crazygurl. Shame.”

“(I am not listening)”

“Sorry. But for folks who occassionally claim to show pride in this country and its traditions . . .


The genesis of our current Veteran's Day celebration is, as we were all taught in school, Armistice Day.

On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th Month there was an Armistice (cessessation of hostilities in WWI.).


You all did know where the expression "at the 11th hour" came from, right?


President Wilson declared the first Armistice Day in 1919 with the following words:

" "To us in America, the reflections of armistice Day will be filled with solemn pride in the heroism of those who died in the country’s service and with gratitude for the victory, both because of the thing from which it has freed us and because of the opportunity it has given America to show her sympathy with peace and justice in the councils of the nations…"

I added the emphasis to demonstrate that Armistice was not merely a NATIONAL celebration, but an outward looking one (typical of Wilson;s Presidency).

In subsequent years both France and the UK started their recognition of the day.

Interestingly for the Christians in the group, Wilson, in 1920, proclaimed that the Sunday nearest Armistice day be remembered in church services held in the interest of international peace.

yada yada


In 1954 Eisenhower signed legislation changing the name to Veteran's day.

The day moves around on the calendar a bit finally settling in 1978 as a federal holiday on November 11th.


I have NO dispute with folks who just want to use the day to honor US men and women in service. I spent 4 hours at the parade in Hartford doing just that last weekend.

As Crash observed earlier, this is simply another example of Sarge opening up a can of his juvenile whoop ass soley for the sake of being a douche bag.


What's fun is that he is wrong. The foundation of this holiday, this remembrance of the sacrifice of soliders, is very very much rooted in the mutual sacrifice of the community of nations. And there is no two ways around it.


So Sarge. By all means, PLEASE, celebrate it how you wish. I certainly am biased myself in terms of thinking just of the sacrifices of US soliders. I don't spend a lot of time at the veteran's cemetary thinking about the germans and japanese, I'll tell you that.

But before you land on someone for using the day to recognize the sacrifice's made by other soliders, in other country's, many side by side with our fighting men and women, perhaps you better get your sh ! t straight.


Here is a quick link: http://www.army.mil/cmh/faq/vetsday/vetshist.htm

Oh, and to be clear. My link, and the quotes, and the authority, certainly isn't mine, it comes from the US Army Center of Military History.



Sarge --

I know your stupid assed web persona well enough to know that, in your own mind, you will continue to be right and that you will fight that to the death.

Have a blast.”

“Official recognition of the end of the first modern global conflict -- World War I - - was made in a concurrent resolution (44 Stat. 1982) enacted by Congress on June 4, 1926, with these words:


WHEREAS the 11th of November 1918, marked the cessation of the most destructive, sanguinary, and far reaching war in human annals and the resumption by the people of the United States of peaceful relations with other nations, which we hope may never again be severed, and


WHEREAS it is fitting that the recurring anniversary of this date should be commemorated with thanksgiving and prayer and exercises designed to perpetuate peace through good will and mutual understanding between nations; and


WHEREAS the legislatures of twenty-seven of our States have already declared November 11 to be a legal holiday: Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate (the House of Representatives concurring), That the President of the United States is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the officials to display the flag of the United States on all Government buildings on November 11 and inviting the people of the United States to observe the day in schools and churches, or other suitable places, with appropriate ceremonies of friendly relations with all other peoples.



An Act (52 Stat. 351; 5 U. S. Code, Sec. 87a) approved May 13, 1938, and the 11th of November in each year a legal holiday - - a day to be dedicated to the cause of world peace and to be hereafter celebrated and known as "Armistice Day. "



Emphasis is mine.


Clearly showing the deep roots of the holiday in the celebration of world peace.

But that is just a congressional declaration. I am sure it won't slow sarge down one bit.”

“Good job, Lee. Thank you.”

“Well lee, you've somehow confused the origin of the holiday, with the holiday itself.

This is directly from Eisenhower's proclomation of Veteran's Day:

Whereas, in order to expand the significance of that commemoration and in order that a grateful Nation might pay appropriate homage to the veterans of all its wars who have contributed so much to the preservation of this Nation, the Congress, by an act approved June 1, 1954 (68 Stat. 168), changed the name of the holiday to Veterans Day:

Take note that the NEW holiday (Veterans Day) is not just for WW1 veterans, and it is only for those vets that SUPPORT the preservation of the United States.

That's like saying Christmas is a pagen holiday, instead of differentiating the Christmas holiday with it's origins.

Oops. Nice try troll.
last edited: 11/09/07 11:31:16 AM”

“Clearly after the sacrifices of US soldiers in WWII and Korea motivated Eisenhower to rename the hoiday more clearly to focus on the sacrifices of the US soldier in particular, as is only fitting:

Veterans Day, 1954


BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA


A PROCLAMATION


3071


Whereas it has long been our customs to commemorate November 11,


the anniversary of the ending of World War I, by paying tribute to the heroes of that tragic struggle and by rededicating ourselves to the cause of peace; and


Whereas in the intervening years the United States has been


involved in two other great military conflicts, which have added millions of veterans living and dead to the honor rolls of this Nation; and


Whereas the Congress passed a concurrent resolution on June 4,


1926 (44 Stat. 1982), calling for the observance of November 11 with appropriate ceremonies, and later provided in an act approved May 13, 1938 (52 Stat. 351) , that the eleventh of November should be a legal holiday and should be known as Armistice Day; and


Whereas, in order to expand the significance of that


commemoration and in order that a grateful Nation might pay appropriate homage to the veterans of all its wars who have contributed so much to the preservation of this Nation, the Congress, by an act approved June 1, 1954 (68 Stat. 168), changed the name of the holiday to Veterans Day:

Now, Therefore, I, Dwight D. Eisenhower, President of the


United States of America, do hereby call upon all of our citizens to observe Thursday, November 11, 1954, as Veterans Day. On that day let us solemnly remember the sacrifices of all those who fought so valiantly, on the seas, in the air, and on foreign shores, to preserve our heritage of freedom, and let us reconsecrate ourselves to the task of promoting an enduring peace so that their efforts shall not have been in vain. I also direct the appropriate officials of the Government to arrange for the display of the flag of the United States on all public buildings on Veterans Day.


In order to insure proper and widespread observance of this


anniversary, all veterans, all veterans' organizations, and the entire citizenry will wish to wish to join hands in the common purpose. Toward this end, I am designating the Administrator of Veterans' Affairs as Chairman of a Veterans Day National Committee, which shall include such other persons as the Chairman may select, and which will coordinate at the national level necessary planning for the observance. I am also requesting the heads of all departments and agencies of the Executive branch of the Government to assist the National Committee in every way possible.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and cause the


al of the United States of America to be affixed.


Done at the City of Washington this eighth day of October in the


Year of our Lord nineteen hundred and fifty-four, and of the Independence of the (SEAL) United States of America the one hundred and seventy-ninth.




DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER


By the President:




Please note, I highly the passage in which Eisenhower declaration EXPANDS the significance of that original armistice celebration.

NOT replace Sarge, EXPAND.


The orginal purpose of Armistice day has NEVER gone away, nor was that Eisenhower's intent. His intent was to EXPAND the remembrance to include a special emphasis onthe sacrifices tmade by US solider's in particular, especially given the huge casualties from WW II and then Korea.

So Sarge. Even at its narrowest construction, the legislation of 1954 and declaration of Eisenhower reinforced the internation peace aims of the original armistice and expanded its scope to particularly emphasize the role of uS soldier.


Bite me.”

“Somehow you keep forgetting to mention the part about "who have contributed so much to the preservation of this Nation".”

“You are OWNED!!!!!!


read the quote YOU included. EXPAND.


Clearly the newly named Veteran's Day is meant to include all of the aspects of the former Armistice Day.


It only made sense to update it, after two more wars subsequent to the "war to end all wars".”

“also, you forgot to highlight this part:

involved in two other great military conflicts, which have added millions of veterans living and dead to the honor rolls of this Nation;”

“MORON.

i certainly have NOT forgotten, nor I am ignoring why Eisenhower EXPANDED the holiday.


I will quote from myself

"The orginal purpose of Armistice day has NEVER gone away, nor was that Eisenhower's intent. His intent was to EXPAND the remembrance to include a special emphasis onthe sacrifices tmade by US solider's in particular, especially given the huge casualties from WW II and then Korea.


My emphasis so that you couldn't miss it.


Again.

I agree with YOU. The main thrust of Veteran's day is to honor US Veteran's.

But you are simply WRONG to open a can a juveline whoop ass on paddles for attempting to include and international aspect to his comments.

you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

and have been owned owned owned.”

“hwo about this quote, again from me:

Clearly after the sacrifices of US soldiers in WWII and Korea motivated Eisenhower to rename the hoiday more clearly to focus on the sacrifices of the US soldier in particular, as is only fitting:

Although I said CLEARLY, clearly it wasn't clear to you.”

“Also, from the Dept. of VA:

An Act (52 Stat. 351; 5 U. S. Code, Sec. 87a) approved May 13, 1938, made the 11th of November in each year a legal holiday - - a day to be dedicated to the cause of world peace and to be thereafter celebrated and known as "Armistice Day." Armistice Day was primarily a day set aside to honor veterans of World War I, but in 1954, after World War II had required the greatest mobilization of soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen in the Nation’s history; after American forces had fought aggression in Korea, the 83rd Congress, at the urging of the veterans service organizations, amended the Act of 1938 by striking out the word "Armistice" and inserting in its place the word "Veterans." With the approval of this legislation (Public Law 380) on June 1, 1954, November 11th became a day to honor American veterans of all wars.

You seem to be the only one lee who assumes that when the President is talking about veterans, he means veterans of all countries.”

“skip the "christmas holiday" analogy.


That would work if Christain's had said ...let's EXPAND on the existing pagan traditions and also celebrate the birty of christ.




But, from YOUR quote . ..that is EXACTLY what Eisenhower said in his declaration: that our modern Veteran's Day is an EXPANSION of the old Armistice celebration.


It was NOT tossed out and replaced (Christian Christmas vs pagan yule log) it was merely expanded to include a great emphasis on the sacrifices of US soldiers in two subsequent wars.”

“But you are simply WRONG to open a can a juveline whoop ass on paddles for attempting to include and international aspect to his comments.

you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

What I said was "No thank you to the servicemen of certain countries, ... Iran, NK, China, Russia, France, and others ...”

So, if I can prove to you that our enemies were not who this day was intended for, you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Right?

(btw, I already did prove that, "who have contributed so much to the preservation of this Nation".)

Get the foot out of your mouth lee.”

“The old United States holiday was not designed to celebrate the veterans of our enemies. You are simply wrong about that. I think you're funny to suggest it is! LOL! Keep yelling though! You may just humiliate yourself to the point you don't care any more.”

“Wrong again.

I cleary understand, and have stated several times, that Eisenhower expanding the holiday to include special emphasis onthe sacrifices of US soliders.


Are you trying to make me look unpatriotic or can;''t you read.

What is this nonsense "You seem to be the only one lee who assumes that when the President is talking about veterans, he means veterans of all countries.”

Clearly Eisenhower means US soliders.


And I certainly agree.




My point is that, in spite of your hissy fit, in spite of your umbrage, in spite of your chest beating and flag waving, Veteran's Day traditions, roots and cermonies today are very deeply embedded in an international sensibility.


At the hartford parade there was the UKRAINIAN contingent, the SOUTH KOREAN contingent and the group fo LAOS. All in traditional dress or military uniforms.


Perhaps you are confusing the holiday with MEMORIAL DAY, when we honor US MILITARY WAR DEAD????”

“Here's another one lee, right from Wilson's mouth ...

In November 1919, President Wilson proclaimed November 11 as the first commemoration of Armistice Day with the following words: "To us in America, the reflections of Armistice Day will be filled with solemn pride in the heroism of those who died in the country’s service and with gratitude for the victory, both because of the thing from which it has freed us and because of the opportunity it has given America to show her sympathy with peace and justice in the councils of the nations…"

He's ONLY referring to those who served in AMERICA'S SERVICE. He is saying that BECAUSE WE SUFFERED as a nation, we can SYMPATHIZE with other countries. He isn't celebrating THEIR veterans, you goof ball.”