Wilderness is socialism?

“"The St. Louis, Missouri, Sunday Post-Dispatch Early Metro Edition, 11 November 2007, carried a front-page story titled "Wilderness, pure and simple." The Missouri Wilderness Coalition wants federal protection for 50,000 more acres, making it off-limits to ATVs, logging, and mining. Proposed areas include Van East Mountain and Lower Rock Creek in the Fredericktown Ranger District, plus five other areas in Mark Twain National Forest.

The proposal would shut off most access to several scenic areas within Mark Twain National Forest for local residents who enjoy using the Forest for recreation and livelihood and use All-Terrain Vehicles to get around in the woods. Despite the front-page photo of Jamie Wilson and his son riding horses on Cedar Creek Trail, the kind of use restriction proposed by The Missouri Wilderness Coalition generally includes eventual banning of horses, whose hooves "disturb the fragile environment" of the trail in addition to leaving behind unsightly piles of horse manure offensive to Wilderness travelers."

http://freedom.org/news/200711/15/jud.phtml

Note: If such public lands qualify for wilderness designation, mining and logging have not previously occurred there and likely with good reason, no economically acceesible resources there. It would be nice to keep ATV's out of most wild areas and even horses out of some wild areas.
last edited: 11/16/07 4:57:00 AM”

“Hillside one of the scenarios we got in Wilderness school actually happened out west. You have a patient who has fallen and is seriously injured....the Forest Service cannot land a helicopter to pick him up BECAUSE of the regulations....sorry I agree with protecting the land. But for me it would be more understandable to put a huge price on a permit with severe restrictions on what they can do.”

“If you can't live without a helicopter, stay out of the wilderness. Your Permit would soon be upgraded to the Premium Permit which would allow chain saws and ATVs and free log cabin planes.”

“Yeah Sale YOu know I am glad you don't work in Emergency Services....thats why they are called accidents. This guy had slipped on a wet rock and fell off a cliff.

But then again...shouldn't we have to PAY for people to make mistakes? (LOL)...OOOPS conundrum here huh?”

“You just can't NOT allow the stupidity of humans to control all?”

“AHH good so I can expect your support for ending all the social welfare give away programs? You know the programs that offer money without responsibility?”

“Hillside one of the scenarios we got in Wilderness school actually happened out west. You have a patient who has fallen and is seriously injured....the Forest Service cannot land a helicopter to pick him up BECAUSE of the regulations....

Sorry, but that's crap. Happens all the time in the 20+ wilderness areas in Washington. This is just one instance from a guy I know:

"I slid down the 5th class slab sliding face toward the rock and feet down. My partner thinks I fell 10 feet while I think I fell 20 feet. I landed and broke my talis bone on my left foot and had multiple breaks in my right foot. I was in a lot of pain.

Due to the time (3:30), I knew my partner had to get out for a helicopter for me. He left me all his extra clothes and food. He took off in an incredible speed and got out to the Snow Creek trailhead in about 3 hours. I had a helicopter rescue come out of the Yakima Training Center and pick me up at 10:30pm with night vision goggles."”

“Isn't it called foreign aid and sometimes foreign trade along with all the domestic waste basket programs? Don't stop at your favs dude , include the lot, we're looking for some fair thinking here. We don't need buying votes with taxpayer money nomatter who or where they are. The corps and big organization like the churchs don't need the IRS exemptions any more. Get the taxpayer out of the airlines and make them charge the price to fly ( probably 300% increase to begin with) shut down the hotels, motels and all the worthless restaurants that live off of taxpayer money.

Yah, get rid of the IRS.
last edited: 11/16/07 1:23:25 PM”

“LOL..we were discussing last night about the creeping growth of "government Nannies" in our world.

SO this scenario came up...

Its Thursday, you have planned a great trip for the weekend. You get up and drive to the trail head, intending to spend the night there and head out on the trail.

When you get there you note in the campsite next to you there is a group that you are not all that happy to see (say differing political ideas, religious differences etc) they are very vocal about what ever....

No problem you decide you will hike either leaving early or late in the day. That evening the Ranger comes up and explains that this "group" is really inexperienced and so you will be asked to "take care of them" on the trail.

You explain that you really would prefer to no be around them. "Sorry" you are told. These people have a RIGHT to hike the trail, and if you want to hike this trail you are going to have to help them.

Well well. You swallow the anger and the next morning you get up to find they are in your campsite begging for food and some fuel. Now it appears they are really OVERPACKED for the trip and infact may have left what they needed to bring what they WANTED to bring.

You go to the Ranger and explain this problem. He tells you you WILL help them hike the trail regardless.

You walk back to your gear, to find they have added "some of their stuff" for you to carry. They also explain that during the hike they must stop three times to pray to (insert religion) and you will be expected to RESPECT their religion.

SO now here is your dilemma, you wanted to live your weekend, you prepared properly, you understand the challenges....Do you blow it off to help the unprepared, they wil obviously be using you as pack animals...so what do you do?

After all they have a RIGHT to hike the trail, they have a RIGHT to see a public forest, they have a RIGHT to this....”

“Hope they don't step in my three prayer spots.”

“In your scenario there is nothing to compel you to go on your hike other than your own choice to do so. IRL, we don't have that choice.”

“Is this during WWII?”

“All Kleentonz fault. Damn Silly Libbies”

“LOL...Mutt just checked the thread...I got the responses I expected, the liberals here do not want to consider the logic of "what if I was on the other side". I agree I left the "mandatory" nature of life out of this scenario.
Sadly the silly little libbies (especially rosey and Sale) are too stuck on their own little worlds to consider the effect of compulsory intervention in our private lives by Government.

Much like the adolescent behavior of the Government Wards of the State ( I refer to them as Government FREE MONEY people) in public assistance, these people see everything from a perception of "me me me" with no thought of "what if the tables were turned?"

And Rosey...something like this HAS happened in history.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

Written by an ardent anti-fascist he referred to government intervention in "thought" what we seem to be missing in today's society is as the goverment turns more and more to punishing various groups (sadly producers) with taxes (like taxes on things that are decreasing (tobbacco) and taxes on corporations and the "EVIL rich" we will slowly get to a point where the voracious need of the government has presented a problem. We will get to a point where the government that has offered us their version of "equality" has taken our FREEDOM to make it "fair".”

“Kook Alert Kook Alert!

Reds under the bed! Let's dig up McCarthy and send him after the commie bastards!
last edited: 2/21/08 8:36:49 AM”

“Imagine a country that uses a threat from another race to build up the military, invade another country on false pretenses, justify spying on its citizens phone lines, library records. Imagine they take this further and use it to justify torture, to drum up nationalism, to claim any opposition is anti-American - all done to protect 'Freedom'. Imagine that.”

“Dang Y2 I'm glad you have come to the conclusion you have a problem. I'm praying you'll now get help. Let's all come together and pray for Y2 and his "kook" problem.”

“THEY ARE COMING TO GET YOU XL!!!!!!!!

hahahahha. The military is the biggest it's ever been! Wonder who enabled THAT...”

“actually rosey there are less soldiers in uniform now than there were in 1991. During the early 90's there was a massive RIF (reduction in force) of us military personnel. We are at about 6/10 % of total us population in uniform.”

“I hope we never have another world war with the attitudes that some of you guys are showing the Nazi and Japs would have had a field day.”

“Errrrr, wasn't that part of Rummy's reformation of the military from abig cold-war force of tanks and artillery to a smaller lighter more mobile military?”

“You're right Birch. Actually, now that I think about it, we probably had the biggest military mobilizaton during WWII (que XL)...”

“Y2, the largest cuts were in the early to mid 90's about a 30% cut in manpower. No that wasnt rumsfeld. He focused on restructering and reforming command and operational structures, not reducing numbers.

edit
I saw this happen to many experienced NCO's (not in my unit thankfully). No room for growth into senior NCO ranks so you were forced out.
last edited: 2/21/08 8:48:20 AM”

“the end of the cold war you mean birch, when the prospect of massive lines of tanks and troops facing each other in Europe and Asia receeded right?

“I hope we never have another world war with the attitudes that some of you guys are showing the Nazi and Japs would have had a field day.”
minish223
8:44:01 AM
2/21/08

Where as you'd probably be forming an alliance with the nazis.... dumb thing to say, maybe, but only as dumb as the line you just used there.”

“Yep the end of the cold war. The point is that rosey drastically mischaracterized the size of the us military to support his position. He was and is afctually incorrect, that was my point. The military still hasnt recovered from its gutting.”

“rosey, here are some stats on our biggest military ever

http://www.swivel.com/data_columns/spreadsheet/2643971

thats only through 2002

through 2007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_United_States
last edited: 2/21/08 9:08:37 AM”

“That's fine Birch. Thanks for sharing. You're right. I'm wrong. I guess I should have stated EXPENDITURES and not manpower.

FYI: Academia does not consider Wiki a valid informational source as anyone can edit, contribute, etc.”

“FYI: Academia does not consider Wiki a valid informational source as anyone can edit, contribute, etc.”

thats fine, you are not academia.”

“of course expenditures are up we are at war. Should we not fund our soldiers. I recall when you posted the MRAP deaths you were upset that our soldiers werent getting the best equipment. the stuff isnt free.”

“What are you talking about? I hold a highly esteemed Doctorate of Bullsheet in TT Trolling.”

“What are you talking about? I hold a highly esteemed Doctorate of Bullsheet in TT Trolling.”
roseymonster

Is it from the university of Phoenix?”

“For sure. Unprovocated war is expensive. The fact that we have racked up the biggest national debt in history under the current administration is a testament to that fact.”

“provocated or not war is costly. The politics of the war shouldnt interfere with the soldiers being equipped period.”

“It's funny birch's wikipedia above list five branches of our military , but leaves out the biggest of all- the lobbyist.”

“I agree. The problem is, when you don't ramp up properly for battle, the troops suffer. Hence, I am willing to bet (and this is circumspection), that the defense contractors have the US over a barrel to produce needed war goods and are charging a PREMIUM price for rush jobs. Had this stuff been THOUGHT OUT in ADVANCE, the price tag wouldn't have been SO high (but yeah, very high no doubt).”

“AN Yet...May I note..NOT ONE PERSON HAS addressed Increasing Government control on your freedom (LOL)..OH this is rich...

Birch you are dead on right by the way.”

“That's because it's usually tough to pick out the point you try to make amid the stream of incoherent rambling XL ;op”

“Would not spending our greatgrandchildrens money be control over our freedoms?”

“Sure thing Salebored, but this is such a heady time for the war-mongers they would prefer to simply enjoy the ride and not care about the future.”

“Hence, I am willing to bet (and this is circumspection), that the defense contractors have the US over a barrel to produce needed war goods and are charging a PREMIUM price for rush jobs

Maybe or maybe not. If for example the company who makes the armor for uparmored humvees gets a rush order that could mean that their other orders are sidtracked and delayed due to the rush. Shouldnt the rush customer pay a premium for the service? I know if I want my drycleaning done in an hour I pay more. Yes I know that war isnt drycleaning.

How did we not ramp up for battle well? I thought that gw and his cronies had been planning this illegal war forever and were just looking for a reason?”

“LOL..and Birch NAILS em with logic....Man that HAD to leave a mark.”

“That's just your Republican spin birch! Stop spouting off whatever Limbaugh your hero says!

- y2”

“Sure Birch, but paper planning and actually on the ground planning are two entirely different concepts. For what it's worth (and that doesn't appear much), Conrgess has to approve the spending (and much to the chagrin, no doubt, of D.C. hawks).”

“Of course the reality of XL's little scenario there is that under the pure capitalist regime he helped create the trailheads have all been closed as they were created by socialist nanny governments.

The rangers have all been laid off as there was no money to pay them, and they too were considered part of the nanny state.

The land itself has also been sold off too, mainly to Dick Cheney, who uses it to people hunt. If you make it over the electric fence then Dick will be after you carrying a shot gun while chasing you down from his Humvee. Ted Turner is riasing Buffalo on the parts that don't contain gas rigs.

See the funny thing is he can't even see that the 'nanny state' he whines about maintains the trailheads he wishes to hike on, keeps the land he wants to hike in wild, maintains the roads he gets there with, and pays the Ranger's wages.

Funnier still is the fact that the Government currently pays his wages that buy the car that takes him to the trailhead, the gear that he used to hike, even the sleeping bag he sleeps in.

I guess that didn't come up in your conversation last night huh?
last edited: 2/21/08 1:32:06 PM”

“again rosey what were the planning failures?

If congress who controls the purse strings and acts as a check and balance to the executive office doesnt have the will or courage to do their job they are to blame. The congress pre06 and post has been spineless at best. If those who were elected in 06 would even try they could do something, but they dont. That is why their approval ratings rival W's. they made either 1) unrealistic promises (ending the war quickly) or 2) lack the will to do so.”

“they made either 1) unrealistic promises (ending the war quickly) or 2) lack the will to do so

Couldn't agree more, birch.

As far as the lack of planning, this article lists quite a few, from Military .com

That one was from 2004, but the NYT had one regarding poor planning just last week about a study done by RAND Corp. that got mysteriously buried.
last edited: 2/21/08 3:59:41 PM”

“Absolutely. Congress is to blame for voting for the b.s. However, you can't seriously tell me this was a well planned out event. Everything points to the contrary. Lack of body armor. Lack of heavy armor vehicles. Lack of freakin' troops for god sakes (yeah, we gave up on Afghanistan and Osama when we had him cornered in order to put troop over in Iraq).

The reality is, they thought they had Iraq buttoned up (ole flyboy Mission Accomplished) when really, the sucker was about to blow wide open. Like I said, poor planning. You'd be a fool to argue otherwise.”

“Thanks for the links Kleetn, very informative.

However, you can't seriously tell me this was a well planned out event.

From reading the first link Kleetn posted it seems that everything but the fourth phase was well planned.Which isnt so much the military side but the civil affairs side, so I would still say that militarily things went fairly well. Things coulda been better.

To say that we didnt have adequate armored vehicles would imply that we knew we'd need em.We have never used nor counted on a huge stockpile or heavily armored vehicles for urban war. The bradley was a cold war design and application. The humvee was a jeep replacement thrust into duty for a task is wasnt designed for. There is a saying that bears ultimate truth, the military always fights the last war. Our military and government have shown to be highly and quickly adaptive to battlefield needs. But expecting to have all the ideal equipment for a war is a fantasy.

It would have been great to have topshelf body armor for our men, but never ever not once in history have our troops had bodyarmor even close to what it was on day one in Iraq. I used an old worn out vietnam war style flak vest (note I didnt say body armor as it was never intended to stop a bullet) in 1991-93 thats what I had. Imagine my surprise when we realized drunkenly one night that a well placed blow dart could penetrate it.

You demand that we equip our troops but rail against military spending, you cant have it both ways.Earlier on this thread you went on about mil spending, how else do we supply our soldiers, pixie dust? If you are mad at the lack of troops thank Clinton the most massive cuts (I provided links earlier) came under his watch. And please dont get all side tracked about him. Its a historical fact not ideolgy that I am talking about.

Giving up on afghanistan and Osama is a huge mischaracterization. The situation was far more complex then that.

I dont beleive that I am fool for arguing otherwise.”

“how else do we supply our soldiers

I keep trying to tell you guys, Star Trek has the ultimate Utopian future for our race.

NO money!

Instead, they use space bucks. It's like credit for work which you can use for trade, but it's not money.”

“Kick Ass there Birch. The sad thing is my scenario libbies IS a possibility.

Its too bad you guys spend all day feeling about history instead of researching it. The very people who supported Stalin, found out they were often the first shipped off to gulags and prisons.

Want an example CLOSER to home...lol look at the number of "Clinton syncophants" who have been used and thrown away like a dirty tissue.”