More About the War on Christmas

“I'm still waiting on my pie.”

“You can get two for a dollar!”

“Good to hear, Phaedrus, really.

Also, yes, I know I'm a d1ck. Just ask ramblinrev, one of my latest victims.”

“whhhhat did you doooo?”

“Shoot.

All these years I thought it was � "A White Sport Coat And A Pink Crustacean".”

“Our traditions are rooted in Christianity... Care to expand on that?

Sure.

In keeping with the spirit of this thread, let's start with the 3 major U.S. holidays -

Christmas (Christian)
Thanksgiving (Christian)
Easter (Christian)

There is nothing more "traditional" than our 3 biggest holidays.

Other traditions (some even became laws because it was considered too disruptive to do otherwise) -

Swearing in on the Christian Bible.
Lack of business open on Sunday, or having limited hours.
Swearing our pledge of Allegience every morning in school, to a nation under God.
Calling on God to bless America in times of peril.
Adding the Christian God to our National Anthem, which is well played, enough so the reference made it to our money. Also well played in American tradition is God Bless America.”

“

Article XI from the Treaty of Tripoli 1796”

“Wait wait wait. Thanksgiving is CHRISTIAN?”

“Easter was swiped from the European pagans.......Spring Fertility Rite.

More wine!”

“Christmas was a winter solstice celebration, too. But whatever.”

“
� � � don't piss off the Muffelmen

”

“Since when has Easter been one of the 3 major U.S. holidays?”

“I'm predicting a Sarge meltdown.”

“Pagans rule! Pass the Weed.”

““Easter was swiped from the European pagans.......Spring Fertility Rite.

More wine!”

The christmas story was also lifted from the pagans.”

“�Wait wait wait. Thanksgiving is CHRISTIAN?�

Yes, I hate to break it to you. Here, this is from the liberally biased wikipedia ...


1621 Thanksgiving, The Pilgrims in Massachusetts
The early settlers of Plymouth Colony in Massachusetts were particularly grateful to Squanto, the Native American and former British slave who taught them how to both catch eel and grow corn and also served as their native interpreter. Without Squanto's assistance, the settlers might not have survived in the New World.

The Plymouth settlers (who came to be called "Pilgrims") set apart a holiday immediately after their first harvest in 1621. They held an autumn celebration of food, feasting, and praising God.

They were Christians - they thanked God for their harvest.

As far as our holiday, later in that article ...

National Thanksgiving Proclamations proclaim thanks for God�s providence in the events of the nation and, as President Washington explained in his Thanksgiving Proclamation, "for the many signal favors of Almighty God" in the lives of the people.”

“Ah, there it is.

Sarge, would you agree that before America's thanksgiving tradition, it was not a Christian tradition, and would therefore be better labeled an American tradition?
last edited: 11/29/07 10:50:10 AM”

“I built a house similar to my neighbors. Do I live in my neighbors house?”

“If I pray before a football game, does that make football a Christian tradition?”

“Who do you think Thanksgiving was for "thanking", Phaedrus? LMAO! The tree faerrie? The Indians? Do you think they were thanking the soil gods? LOL!”

““I'm waiting for the mental gymnastics it's going to take to turn thanksgiving into a Christian tradition.”

*The turkey is a sacrifice = Jesus was a sacrifice

*Gravy = blood

*The wishbone = struggle between Jesus and Satan

*The Holy Trinity = Turkey, mashed potatoes and pumpkin pie

..add as you see fit.”

“�If I pray before a football game, does that make football a Christian tradition?�

Piling on more questions ... okay ...

That in itself does not. AGAIN, in context ... we are a Christian nation because of the sum of our traditions. Not because on one. I know this pains you. Don't let reality cause so much pain in your life Phaedrus.”

“Jokes aside Nigal, I presented facts.

I love it how the left goes from "we demand imperical evidence" ... to making jokes when they are clearly wrong.”

““Who do you think Thanksgiving was for "thanking", Phaedrus? LMAO! The tree faerrie? The Indians? Do you think they were thanking the soil gods? LOL!”
Sarge
8:51:54 AM
11/29/07

Pfft, if it's your assertion that it was designed to thank the Christian god alone, you have to prove that, not me.

Considering the theistic bent of most of our nation's writings and subsequent laws, I would contend that Thanksgiving is for giving thanks to whomever you pray/don't pray to.”

“we are a Christian nation because of the sum of our traditions. Not because on one. I know this pains you. Don't let reality cause so much pain in your life Phaedrus.”
Sarge
8:53:45 AM
11/29/07

Again, you refer the "the nation" as an entity, when in fact, you are trying to assert that there is a large portion of the population that includes a religious context to these traditions. I am asserting that many of these traditions have equally valid non-religious contexts.”

“I should amend that to say "Non-Christian context"”

“I have not given any indication that I believe that people interpret the traditions differently. I am simply stating that the vast majority of the traditions are followed under a Christian perspective. That is fact. Again, I'm sorry that bothers you, truly. I would hate to be in your shoes. But facts are facts, and we are a Christian nation rooted in Christian traditions from Christian people. Now you can pull out obscure references to being 10,000 denominations of Christianity, so who is to say what Christianity really is, or whatever, but you and I both know that's all 100% irrelevant. (by the way, the Pilgrims were devout Christians - but are we off the "origins" issue you keep wanting to bring up now?)

Here - from about.com ... English separatists were Protestants who believed that the Anglican church still contained too much which was still Roman Catholic in nature. They wanted to reform the church to make it better, but no longer believed that to be possible and so "separated" from it, creating their own congregations where they could believe and worship as they felt proper.”

“It failed

Ironically, the treaty failed to achieve its stated purpose of ensuring peace and friendship between the United States and Tripoli. By 1800 the ruler of Tripoli, angry because his tribute payments were late, was again harassing U.S. shipping. Jefferson, by then president, beefed up the fledgling U.S. Navy and sent ships to blockade Tripoli. In 1803 disaster struck when the U.S.S. Philadelphia ran aground in Tripoli, and its 300-man crew was imprisoned. Jefferson called for war.

In 1804 U.S. ships under the command of Stephen Decatur bombarded Tripoli, and the blockade was stepped up. The following year, Tripoli sued for peace. A diplomat named Tobias Lear negotiated a peace treaty; the new document did not contain the exact anti-"Christian nation" language of Barlow's treaty, although it did contain an article stating that the United States has no established church. The United States agreed to pay Tripoli $60,000, and all of the Philadelphia's sailors were released.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/archive/boston_tripoli.html

OH and here is a neat bit of historical information

The U.S. Marines' most famous action of this period occurred during the First Barbary War (1801�1805), when William Eaton and First Lieutenant Presley O'Bannon led seven Marines and 300 Arab and European mercenaries in an effort to capture Tripoli. Though they only reached Derna, the action at Tripoli has been immortalized in the Marines' hymn and the Mameluke Sword carried by Marine officers.[20]”

“Sarge, It seems like your point is muddied.

If I understand you, you assert that because the US is largely Christian, the traditions we follow are largely Christian, even if there is an equally valid non-Christian interpretation.

Then you go on to assert that we are a Christian nation because we follow Christian traditions.

Does that not indicate that you believe we are a Christian nation because the majority of our population is Christian?
last edited: 11/29/07 11:15:02 AM”

“If I understand you, you assert that because the US is largely Christian, the traditions we follow are largely Christian, even if there is an equally valid non-Christian interpretation.

Whoa - stop right there. Where did I say that?”

“Whatever the origin of Thanksgiving, it has evolved into a secular holiday.

I'm not surprised that a "creationist" would not buy that.”

“Is a majority of adults christian?

Since children have no choice in the matter should they not be counted?

Any bean-counters here?”

“LOL! First it's all about "origins" ... i.e. - The Founding Fathers, etc... - Now the origins don't matter?

Ok Marko.

If Thanksgiving has evolved into a secular holiday, it has only done so in very recent times.”

“Let a christian have a day and they'll take the other 366 and squat on them.

I do agree that thanksgiving and burning cross days were originally christian.
last edited: 11/29/07 11:41:04 AM”

“Eh. Lunchtime.”

“MarkO - according to an ABC poll, 83% of American adults are Christian.”

“Polls, huh?

I thought polls were useless.

80% of my adult family.......(eight--me and my siblings) have lost interest in christianity and 20%(the two parents) are still christians.”

“All I ask is to be granted the protection which will protect me as per the Amendment....which allows me to freely practice my religion.”

“XL, one thing I gotta hand ya is that ya don't display that lame ass "persecution complex".”

“I thought polls were useless.

You did? Interesting belief. I disagree though. I think they're a very poor way to determine personal beliefs and convictions, so in that regard I agree with you. But sometimes the only way to know what other people believe is to ask them. Since MarkO asked what the statistics are, polling is the only way to find that information, unless you read minds.”

“Interesting definition of "persecution complex" on wikipedia's site. This can't be what you're referring to markO.

A persecution complex is a term given to an array of psychologically complex behaviours that specifically deal with the perception of being persecuted for various possible reasons, imagined [b]or real.[/b]

So according to them, if the behavior is a reaction to a real persecution, it's a "persecution complex"? Do we really need to give a medical term to normal behaviors?

MarkO, if you're insinuating that I am complaining about being persecuted for my religion, I'd like to know what quote you got that from.”

“Polls that make me happy are always legit, but the rest are just left wing libby punks.”

“why would anyone be offended by the phrase merry christmas?...it's a gesture that has only good intentions behind it...it's not like someone's saying "go to church or you'll burn in hell"...if i was a non-christian not only would i not be offended by this but i'd probably even return the gesture...some people need to stop playing the martyr”

“It isn't about being offended. Its about creating a stick to whack people with.”

“MarkO, if you're insinuating that I am complaining about being persecuted for my religion, I'd like to know what quote you got that from.�
Sarge
1:31:07 PM
11/29/07

Sarge, you started this thread......hmmm?

The only "war on christmas" is in the heads of those of little real faith.

I just heard a news piece about a store(Target???) that was threatened with boycott for labelling their Xmas trees as "Holiday Trees".
They apparently caved in and changed to "Xmas Trees".

Personally, I don't care if it's "Holiday" or "Xmas".

It seems that there is a general decline in religious participation in the U.S. and certain people are getting nervous about it.”

“...and which side are you saying is creating that stick?”

“I say "merry christmas"...........among other things.

I've never had anyone tell me that they were offended.”

“OKay I will throw this out to Tick people off...I still think the worst thing that has ever happened to my faith.

The Edict of Milan during Constantine's time that granted religious toleration to the Christian religion.

At this point we see the Christian Faith becoming one of no sacrifice. Sorry I know way too many people who see their Religion as more or less their "membership to the Country Club"......”