More About the War on Christmas

“Dead tree and house with wasteful lights blinking all over them, tanks of gas to drag home secret packages full of soon to be trash. Everyone rushing and pushing me into saying merry christmas? Sorry but Xmas is a brand name not a birthday party.”

“how is that not an assault??!!!what's wrong with CHRISTmas?...not to be cheesy but after all he is the "reason for the season"...if you're not a christian than why celebrate christmas, why buy a christmas tree, presents etc.?...what's next, they're gonna stop selling bibles?
last edited: 11/29/07 12:52:15 PM”

“Sarge, you started this thread......hmmm?

MarkO, being persecuted for my religion is not the same as people trying to minimize Christmas due to it's religious significance. You're assuming too much, I don't know where to start. First off, I have come to despise the typical "Merry Christmas" blah blah blah that we see here in the states as it pertains to my religion. The commercialism, etc.. It means nothing to me. I don't see that as a reflection of my faith. On the other hand, to be clear, I appreciate the celebration of Christ's birth (whenever it was), and I value a time of year dedicated to doing just that. I exchange presents with friends and family because it is a way to celebrate that. As far as the holiday, it's a fun holiday with snow and rosey cheeks and freshly cut trees. That is a good thing, in it's own right. But, it's not my religion.

So why did I start the thread? Why do I care? I'm glad you asked. (you didn't obviously, that was sarcasm) - My problem is that it has become quite apparent that, as others pointed just recently out, people are missing the point - of not just the religous significance of the holiday, but of the secular one as well. "Merry Christmas!" - The reaction to that? Hatred. Disgust. Anger. "Don't push your religion on me!"

Get a grip people. If I were pushing my religion on you, I'd have a Bible open.
last edited: 11/29/07 12:54:56 PM”

“Wouldn't miss a thing, with exception of course of not having someone to pick on.
last edited: 11/29/07 12:58:28 PM”

“thrifty, like Marko said, I am saying that most people are fine with hearing Merry Christmas and don't get offended by it. It is people with an agenda against the church who sloganeer the Happy Holidays as a replacement for merry christmas and decry kids in school putting up poster that say merry christmas is a violation of church and state. These agenda orientated groups get enough media attention that it makes enough political hay and brings about a perception that their is a public outcry against saying merry christmas. Businesses don't want to lose any customers so they start putting up "holiday" decorations.

The truth is that very few of us knows anyone that is really concerned about saying "merry christmas". The uproar, such as it is, is well constructed myth.”

“"......to be clear, I appreciate the celebration of Christ's birth (whenever it was), and I value a time of year dedicated to doing just that. I exchange presents with friends and family because it is a way to celebrate that."
Sarge

I celebrate family and friends at Christmas and not the birth of The Jesus Guy.......sorry Baby Jee.

Usually my family participates in a Solstice Celebration with my wife's family members and some other friends where we sit around a fire in a certain back yard.
If it ain't too cold so as to throw the guitars out of tune and freeze the fingers we have us a bit of a hootenanny to go with the drinks and the laughs.
We even have a wicked good didgeridoo player in our number and some hand drums and other percusion instruments.

I usually go backpacking as well during my eleven or twelve day holiday break.

Life's a banquet and some of you suckers are starvin'.

For those of you who don't know....
Hootenanny:
1. a social gathering or informal concert featuring folk singing and, sometimes, dancing.
2. an informal session at which folk singers and instrumentalists perform for their own enjoyment.
3. Older Use. a thingumbob”

“Here-here, HyWay!!

Well constructed myth, indeed.”

“myth? I just provided one example today. There will be more to come. There are hundreds from years past. It's only a myth if you ignore the reality.”

“The Pilgrims were opposed to the celebration of Christmas. Thanksgiving days for the first centuries of this country were days for fasting and prayer.

The whole idea of a "Merry Christmas" would have appalled most early Christian colonists.

http://www.pilgrimhall.org/bradfordjournalchristmas.htm”

“Your point being?”

“sarge, we please you head deeper into your ass”

“Come back when you're not lit up.”

“you're disqualified!”

“My point being traditions keep changing. The definition keeps changing, what is defined as the Christian way to observe these holidays keeps changing.

The idea that whether merchants or other advertisers say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" has anything to do with the essence of Christmas would be merely an entertaining folly if not for the intensity of the political agenda of the folks who are trying to convince Christians there is a war going on here.”

““sarge, we please you head deeper into your ass”
EarthNsky
5:45:28 PM
11/29/07

English please.
EnS must be blind drunk again.”

“There is no war on Christmas just like there is no bias toward Democraps in the Major Media.”

“My point being traditions keep changing. The definition keeps changing, what is defined as the Christian way to observe these holidays keeps changing.

All of that I agree with and just got done saying just prior to your post today.

The idea that whether merchants or other advertisers say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" has anything to do with the essence of Christmas would be merely an entertaining folly if not for the intensity of the political agenda of the folks who are trying to convince Christians there is a war going on here.

And this is where your logic falls apart.

First off, the "folks who are trying to convince Christians ..." Who are you referring to? Let me give you a little background before you answer. The "agenda" you are referring to came not from the media, but from Christians. I personally noticed the trend before hearing about it from anyone else. Then I heard other Christians talk about it. It started hitting the Christian circles and eventually started making it into Bible discussions ... then local talk radio ... and worked it's way to mainstream radio. Websites picked up on it somewhere in the middle there through all this, and now it's a mainstream idea that everyone is aware of. It started with the same people you're claiming are the target of some kind of political agenda. A political agenda? Please. Very few politicians talk about this. This is coming from the people, you're just hearing about it through other channels because you're not "in the loop" so to speak.

Secondly, the point of who is pushing or pointing out that it is irrelevant. That is a classic ad hominem. You should know better. The fact is it's happening. You got one example of it today. There are plenty from the past. You'll hear of plenty more. Hey, I don't just make this stuff up. I get email updates all the time from these guys telling me of issues like court cases they are battling because people are told they cannot wish somebody a Merry Christmas: http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/news/pressrelease.aspx?cid=3921”

“MERRY SPENDMAS, EVERYBODY!”

“Personally, I think Christians, in their eternal drive to feel persecuted, first fabricated the "war on christmas" meme in response to some real, though minor, event(s) in the past. Then they stupidly overreacted with childish histrionics and after repeating the meme over and over and over ended up reifying the "war" in popular culture. This ended up creating a self-fulfilling prophesy where more and more people are challenging religious symbology in public arenas, as there's a lot of people who would like to throw off the smothering blanket of xtianity from our culture who never would have thought to do this had it not been for the christians practically begging them to. The christians brought this upon themselves.
last edited: 11/30/07 5:08:37 AM”

“Come out of the closet Mutt....you can't hide forever, bro....”

“That's pretty creative and funny Mutt.”

“Sometimes there's nothing funnier than the truth.”

“Even if it is a stolen pagan holiday.

If Christian symbols and expressions have to go then so do all the pagan ones.

The constitution garantees the freedom to practice religeon regardless of faith, Not freedom from religeon.”

“to ban the saying of the words crhistmas, santa, christ, or whatever in the schools is pretty stupid

so is thinking that there is a massive, organized movement against it. dont give the pc nincompoops too much credit”

“crash - who said there is an organized movement?”

“when you say "war", to me that implies more than just random douchebags here and there being overly pc.”

“Interesting assumption.

To me, war on Christian beliefs is fought by Satan. The sinners of the world are his unwitting puppets.
last edited: 11/30/07 5:40:27 AM”

“It's Satan! Ooga booga booga!
last edited: 11/30/07 5:50:54 AM”

“Alright Sarge, I'll take your word for it - the folks like O'Reilly you mention were jumping on the bandwagon and change my statement:

"The idea that whether merchants or other advertisers say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" has anything to do with the essence of Christmas would be merely an entertaining folly if not for the intensity of the pugnacious paranoid folks who are sounding and spreading the alarm.”

“What did this guy ever do to you Sarge?

”

“Strange really all this reaction to the word Christmas.It`s been part of North American culture for centuries and now suddenly it1s offensive.

Christmas is has been celebrated for generations in this land..it`s a combination of german,scottish,irish and english tradition melded together from those who first settled this continent.

To call it Happy Holiday so as not to offend someone (primarily) of arab culture,who chose to live in our land because of the oppurtunities and freedoms offered is absurdity.It is political correctness gone mad.

Great Britain is seriously considering removing any teachings on the holocaust from its school books due to it "offending" some muslim students and parents who find it offensive as they deny it`s happening.

For years the Parliment buildings in Canada had a beautiful manager scene that attracted large crowds,it has been stopped due to the "chance " of offending someone elses cultral beiliefs....Why are we so willing to give up what is traditionaly North American to appease other cultures...They came here for our freedoms and then want to erode them and make our nations more like the one they left...I left Britain years ago and consider my self a Canadian first.


It`s funny here in London the Islamic Ramadan holiday gets front page coverage for days..The Jewish Hanakah gets page 4 and the Christian aspect of Christmas time gets no mention...I don`t get it.

Right now in Sudan a british teacher is facing a year in jail and 40 lashes for allowing her kindergaten students to call the teddy bear she bought for the class Mohhamed.. to openly talk about Jesus is punishable to whippings,jail time and torture..bibles are illegal..in Saudai Arabia women must be covered non arab or not....These nations make no effort to accomadate our culture..yet we bend over backwards to appease them....Our appeasement is seen as weakness and they will continue to push for more.

For me it`s Christmas and Hanakah ,Easter and Passover..Not Happy holidays.
last edited: 11/30/07 6:56:15 AM”

“However you word it pedxing, it's a classic ad hominem. Completely meaningless in the sake of a debate on the authenticity of the claim. It might serve you well, though, to boost your self-esteem and/or blatant control issues.”

“Well to be sure, there are a number of ver vocal atheists who are literally trying to stamp out any mention of Christianity. Personally I welcome the persecution myself. It has always weeded out the church goers from the believers and strengthened the resolve of Christianity.”

“The War against Christmas stuff is bizarre and paranoid to me. Look at the privileged position Christmas and Christianity has in our society. I stand by it. It's pretty funny that Sarge complains about my about my "classic ad hominem" on his post immediately following:

To me, war on Christian beliefs is fought by Satan. The sinners of the world are his unwitting puppets.
Sarge
6:40:19 AM
11/30/07

I agree with Crash about random folks being overly PC. It's silly to be bothered by someone saying Merry Christmas, or by stores displaying Christmas decorations, but to talk about "War on Christmas" and to attack folks who prefer "Happy Holidays" is really weird. Heck, many devout Christians in the past have been offended by this way of marking Christmas and even more offended by the marketing of Christmas.”

“It's pretty funny that Sarge complains about my about my "classic ad hominem" on his post immediately following:

Well, that quote by me is not an ad hominem, so the only thing left is you are simply laughing at my beliefs. That's fine, but once again, it's not an argument.

It's silly to be bothered by someone saying Merry Christmas, or by stores displaying Christmas decorations, but to talk about "War on Christmas" and to attack folks who prefer "Happy Holidays" is really weird.

What also is "weird" is trying to widdle the "war on Christmas" claim down to people preferring to say "Happy Holidays". That in itself is not the problem, but I suppose it's easier to argue against that. A classic strawman.”

“Seriously pedxing, I expect more of you. Not a lot more, but more. You usually have at least a one-two punch where you first try to side with the person with a "I'm unbiased because I agree on this point", and then follow it up with a "but, ... this statistic makes me feel like leaning in this direction".

Now you've been reduced to logical fallacies? How disappointing.”

“Nothing ad hominem about stating that those you disagree with are the willing puppets of Satan, but after arguing the fallacies of the War on Christmas I note that I am bothered by how paranoid and intense those who proclaim this war are is ad hominem?

OK. Glad that's clear. Carry on. The puppet strings are pulling me away from this thread for a while.”

“Nothing ad hominem about stating that those you disagree with are the willing puppets of Satan

That is not an ad hominem. There seems to be this trend on trailtalk that if you say something perceived as negative about someone, that is 'ad hominem'. That isn't what ad hominem is. Ad hominem is when you claim that somebody is wrong because of who they are. Absorb that, then get back to me.”

“By the way, I didn't say they were the willing puppets of Satan. I think you missed your coffee today.”

“

"HAIL SATAN!! HAIL SATAN!!"”

“LOL

http://www.citizenlink.org/Stoplight/A000005834.cfm

Merry Tossmass”

“It's things like that that make it clear to me the hype about the "War on Christmas" is about tribalism and cultural assertion.

Imagine for a moment you didn't want want people to think about Jesus, you wanted people concerned about worldly things and pleasures and Christmas bothered you because it made people think about Jesus too much. What would you do?

If this was my goal, I'd subvert Christmas and take the Jesus out of it. I'd make it a holiday about worldly pleasures and material things of this world. I'd work on taking some more worldly symbol to appeal to people's worldly desires. I'd important elements of pagan celebrations.

This is why it seems so odd to see someone worrying that people are trying to make a buck out of pedaling the Holiday Season - instead of peddling to make a buck off Christmas. Some are reassured to see Santa and the elves and the reindeer on a store display, but bothered by winter scenes with no Christmas icons.

If I really were worried about an evil one trying to marginalize Jesus, I'd be a lot more bothered by Santa and the paganization of public Christmas displays, than about catalogues and advertisements bearing the message "Happy Holidays."

Maybe the fear of "Happy Holidays" is part of old sulfur breath's strategy of misdirection.
last edited: 12/10/07 11:05:46 AM”

“It's not just about the market, pedxing. It's about freedom of speech and religion. The public schools (aka- the federal government), have done quite a bit to remove "Christmas" from the season. This isn't just about money and marganalizing Jesus. This is about Americans being allowed to OPENLY celebrate Christmas.
last edited: 12/10/07 11:10:32 AM”

“Yeah, we have to get rid of that "don't ask don't tell" policy employers and schools have about celebrating Christmas.”

“Old sulfur breath, LOL.”

“If this was my goal, I'd subvert Christmas and take the Jesus out of it. I'd make it a holiday about worldly pleasures and material things of this world.

Welcome to christmas at my house. It's the one single thing I just can't get my wife to shake and leave behind. It's all about getting together with family and friends and exchanging cool, personal gifts. No crosses, no mangers, no Jesus.”

“Saddam's buddy on South Park....

Together At Last ----”