More About the War on Christmas

“I remember like this one time when me and my friend were like walking around the mall and we saw the word Christmas and my friend was like "did you see that?" and I was like "see what?" and my friend showed me that Christmas has the word Christ in it and she was like all offended and stuff and then I was all offended too and I was pretty much offended for like the entire Christmas season. I hardly enjoyed my presents I was like so offended.”

“yeah, and stuff.”

“Bush can go to hell!”

“A "war" on Christmas.

Riiight.”

“I'm all for christians celebrating their holidays as long as they don't expect me to join in. Do I get offended when a store clerk says "Merry Christmas."? No. It is a bit ignorant to assume everyone celebrates the holiday though. I mean, I don't hear, "Blessed Ramadan" everywhere I go at that time of year.”

“Nigal, it's obvious you're on the front line. An unwitting soldier in the WAR on Christmas.”

“You can't say Bush and hell in the same sentence because church and state should be separated. I am offended.”

“We are a Christian nation. We have Christian traditions. Part of the tradition is wishing people a "Merry Christmas".”

“We aren't a Christian nation.”

“'specially if your church is HELL!!!”

“Well, that's where you're wrong.”

“Oh, okay.

I love it that I'm able to come here and hear the facts from you, Sarge.”

“Spooky. I just posted this on a religious board...

"Is there any evidence found within the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution that would suggest America is a "christian nation" and not simply a nation where there is religious freedom for all?"

Discuss.”

“I'm Discuss, Ted.

Over to you, Chet.”

“I love it that I'm able to come here and hear the facts from you, Sarge.

ditto”

“The U.S. Constitution is a secular document. It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ. The Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which prohibits "religious tests" for public office.”

“An aye for an aye, and a toof for a toof.”

“Nigal - assume for a moment that the Constitution and the DOI made no mention of a deity in any way, shape or form. The fact is that our traditions, going back to the beginning, are doused in Christian traditions. From our holidays, to our laws, to our demographics. We are a Christian nation independent on what is on paper.

That said, I'm glad we are declared to be free to choose.”

“Oh Marge, must we grind more sausage?”

“Yeah, Sarge, because of the the founding fathers' traditions should be followed still.

Next, you'll be saying that we should repeal the emancipation proclamation and move back to a gold currency standard.”

“And we are free to shuck any and all religion that we may have been saddled with as children.

It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood!”

“I'm sorry it offends some of you - but we are a Christian nation. I realize you don't like that fact. I realize that many of you are not Christians. But no amount of wishing or pointing to political documents changes the fact that this nation is a Christian nation. That's just how it is. I'd be upset to if it was an Islamic nation, for example, but it's not, and you know it. It's tough to admit, but you know it to be true.”

“Yeah, Sarge, because of the the founding fathers' traditions should be followed still.

I am not talking about what should be. I am talking about what is. Any of us talking about what should be doesn't change what is. What "is" is that we follow Christian traditions as a nation.”

“Yeah! Let's get rid of the Constitution itself! Dumb old stupid old Founding Fathers!”

“Yes, there are a large number of Christians in the USA.

Yes, because of that, there is a large Christian influence over how government is run, including holidays, workdays, etc.

No, this does not mean that the country is a Christian Nation.

A Christian Nation implies that the country is officially Christian, that the traditions and laws of our country are based in Christian faith. This is not true.”

“".......that we follow Christian traditions as a nation."

What's all this "we" stuff??

You are #&%!$ing eh wrong.

This nation follows more European traditions as far as "traditions" goes and those traditions are more related to the pagan past in primitive Europe.”

“I don't know where you got that implication from. That's a strict definition defined by you. If you want to work with that definition, fine, we agree. In that case, we are not a Christian nation. My definition though is one not centered on the institutional level of the government, but one of the people. (where have I heard that term before?)”

“Oh, okay. By saying "a Christian Nation" you mean "a nation with a lot of Christians". We agree.”

“By the way, we're a white female nation, according to the US census. Females are 50.7% of the population. Whites 80.1%.”

“I feel pretty,
So, so pretty......”

“Does that mean I have to shave my legs, Phaedrus?

Yo, Pops!”

“Oktoberfest, for one, is a real fine "American" tradition.

Deck the halls with sauerkraut and mustard
I'll have another beer and a bratwurst, too!”

“Marko, you don't have to shave your legs, but you do have to allow leg-shaving in public schools.”

“Why are the people who promote this "Christian Nation" stuff the same ones who raise the most Hell about "Moslem nations".

Birds of a feather, in a way....”

“Many of the Christian traditions were Pagan in origin. Doesn't that make us a Pagan nation?”

“You're going down on this one, Sarge. Phaedrus is actually right for once.”

“We're a white female Christian homeowner city-dwelling nation, in fact.

This is fun.”

“WE'RE A SEX-IN-THE-CITY NATION!”

“For once I agree with Nimblefoot.”

“Many people drive pink cars. Doesn't that make us a pink carnation (an old one with apologies to Marty Robins, R.I.P)”

“And our next nominees for the supreme court are:

”

“By the way, we're a white female nation, according to the US census. Females are 50.7% of the population. Whites 80.1%

That's pretty funny, but you took what I said out of context, which in itself wasn't unexpected. My point was pretty obvious, that our traditions are rooted in Christianity. Again, you looked to a piece of paper (the Census Bureau?) to determine your narrow definition. I realize this pains you, but try not to be too upset.

To Nimblefoot's obviously absurd question, of course not. If by "many" you're referring to Christmas, the reason for starting it isn't the origin itself. That's like saying "if we make pie for the pot-luck, because somebody else is making cake, we actually made pie". That's just silliness.
last edited: 11/29/07 10:23:32 AM”

“Hey Phaedrus, How's Albanian doing?”

“The Founding Fathers on Christianity and Religion

James Madison-

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."

John Adams-

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
- letter to John Taylor

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

Thomas Jefferson-

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Notes on Virginia"

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-in his private journal, Feb. 1800

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." - to Carey, 1816

"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

Benjamin Franklin-

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

Thomas Paine-

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

"What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."

"The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar."

"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

Ethan Allen-

"I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not."
preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Man

Abraham Lincoln-

"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."
-Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis

"[Mr. Lincoln] never mentioned the name of Jesus, except to scorn and detest the idea of a miraculous conception. He did write a little work on infidelity in 1835-6, and never recanted. He was an out-and-out infidel, and about that there is no mistake."
His former law partner, William Herndon

"He was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on atheism. He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I have ever heard."
Lincoln's first law partner, John T. Stuart

"He [Lincoln] had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term-- he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects."
Supreme Court Justice David Davis

"It was everywhere contended that no Christian ought to vote for me because I belonged to no church, and was suspected of being a Deist."”

“Who made pie and can I have some?”

“Our traditions are rooted in Christianity... Care to expand on that?”

“Nigal, I can give plenty of quotes by the same people that would seem to counter your quotes. Again, read my response above to you.

Here is where you are confused:

The Founding Fathers were responsible for setting up the government of this nation. They were not responsible for populating the nation, nor establishing the traditions of the nation, nor establishing the daily habits of this nation's people.

Should we look to the founding fathers for other non-governmental characteristics of the United States? Should we look to them to determine if we eat too much fast food?”

““Hey Phaedrus, How's Albanian doing?”
Mutt
8:23:28 AM
11/29/07

You're a dick. :)

You know that don't you?

My son is doing well. He's walking and speaking German and English - albeit a pretty limited vocabulary in both languages.”

“Should we look to the founding fathers for other non-governmental characteristics of the United States? Should we look to them to determine if we eat too much fast food?”
Sarge
8:27:13 AM
11/29/07

We're a McDonald's nation.”