Cultural Relativism

“I try to think twice - or even more than twice - before making judgments about other cultures. Nonetheless, there are all too frequent and sad reminders that public discourse in many Islamic Societies is in a very debased state. As Nigal points out, there have been times in the history of Islam where Islamic societies were among the more enlightened and tolerant in the world. But I see things like death sentences for conversion to Christianity, the fatwah for the death of Salmon Rushdie, the riots over the cartoons of the prophet, the Saudi woman who was gang raped receiving prison and lashes for being alone with an un-related man, and now the Teddy Bear drama in Sudan:

Edit: I see XL brought this up on the peace with Islam thread, but I'm interested in this issue: how has Islam gotten to the state that it is in now? Where is it healthier and what can be done to turn things around?
last edited: 11/30/07 11:00:53 AM”

“boobs”

“beer”

“All the little Angry White Men are going to que up for this one ---- like they needed any more red meat on this subject.”

“how has Islam gotten to the state that it is in now?

Simple. Blatant disregard and hatred for the one and only true God. The perfect example of true love. As Satan as their guide, they have only one path.

I know many of you think that is a joke, but it is not.”

“Why is this fuego?”

“Many a muslim knows us only as a soldiers or maybe as black bullet proof SUVs with black windows moving at 75mph. Many americans only know muslims standing in airport lines ready to board.”

“I know many of you think that is a joke, but it is not. - Sarge

It wouldn't be so damn funny if it was a joke.”

“All the little Angry White Men - Tilt

The only little Angry White Man that I know of around here is you, Tilt. You're constantly going off on "scumbags", "idiots", wishing death for the children of people who support coal power, etc, etc. You are the most bitter, angry person on Trail Talk, even surpassing Bacpac.”

“It wouldn't be so damn funny if it was a joke. - Mutt

2.5 minutes later ...

The only little Angry White Man that I know of around here is you, Tilt. You're constantly going off on "scumbags", "idiots", wishing death for the children of people who support coal power, etc, etc. You are the most bitter, angry person on Trail Talk, even surpassing Bacpac. - Mutt”

“even surpassing me??”

“I'd have to agree with Mutt on this. After all, what we say about others more often says something about ourselves. What's up with that Tilt? Comment on the comment.

That little angry white men line is a classic. As if only white men and little ones at that are angry. Hell, us big strappin mocha-colored fellas get angry too. Come on...lmao. It's 2007.

To ignore the shortcomings of any religion is ridiculous. Islam has some serious flaws and pedxing is right to want to discuss it.
This latest teddy bear bs is stupid and lame.”

“Mutt, isn't cd your troll?”

“No, Oryx was my last alt-ID”

“Tilt = USA is more appropriate: whiny; petulant; condescending. Classic USA stuff---although Tilt does seem to have a sense of humor, something USA did not.



(sorry to add to the thread degradation, ped.)”

“Tilt and Salebored:

I agree that there are a lot of extremely shallow and negative stereotyped views of Islam and the Islamic world. However, the virulent extremest strain that has long been absent, or at least reduced to a very small marginal minority, in the West, is only one aspect of the Islamic world today. Still, if you pretend it isn't there - or refuse to acknowledge it for fear of feeding into our local versions of extremism - you come off as willfully or psychotically out of touch.

I think US policy, Israeli policy, European colonialist policy, Soviet and Chinese policy have all compounded and created problems in the Arab and Islamic worlds - but, the presence of many millions of fanatics ready to take their own lives and the lives of others over insults big and small is a huge problem that would persist for a very very long time even if every American and every Israeli were to vanish from the earth tonight.”

“No problem noncon.

I like Tilt and don't see the comparison to USA, but I know threads on fuego either degenerate or they sink like a stone.”

“The willful and psychotic over reaction to 9/11 in every facet of american life proved that Osama had 200lb. test line and the drag on his reel tight to the max. Until we show some calming intentions the gaff and boat deck are very near.
Plenty more real fears that are way closer to home better be delt with before the new'commie under the bush' leads us off onto a lond weak limb of history.”

“Good Question....well can we refer to history.

About what 1100 or 1200 years or so after the founding of the Christian Faith we saw a small group of fanatics using their power of "religion" begin to hold sway over the ill educated masses in Europe...it started as the Inquisition. The real kick ass Spanish Inquisition started about 1478.
In it the Church (the Religion) sought to control the uneducated with threats of condemnation and stories of heavenly reward.

So now we move ahead to around 500 or so AD when a drunken child molester named Mohammed was looking for a Schtick....WHOOHOO...so lets give a few years for his teachings of submission/control by power to grow. So lets say the beginning around 600 AD. If we figure the Iranian revolution (which really changed the terrorisim from Soviet run to Islamic Run) this hit during the incredibly incompetent presidency of the failed naval officer and incomptent politician Jimuh Carter. (1976 or approximatly 1300 years after the founding of the religion)


here is another nifty historical fact.
In the late 1700s the Wahabbist sect UBLs bunch) was growing. There are direct connections between a small incident in 1883 started the popular Islamic Uprisings against the West in Indonesia (hint for you who don't know history it was Krakatoa).

NOW lets look at the Fundamentalist or Pentacostal Christian faith....it can trace back to a small church on Azusa Street in San Francisco....and it can trace its EXPLOSION of growth to a small thing in April 1906...History is NIFTY.”

“I think you have a good point on 9/11 Sale. I compared the reaction early on to the strategy a weaker boxer might use - slip in one decent punch and hope your opponent will over react striking out in blind rage.

However, I think we need to be watchful and mindful. Succsessfully rebuilding Afghanistan after 9/11 would have been a great first step - especially if it wasn't over-shadowed by an Iraq fiasco, where the best we can hope for is to minimize our losses to make gains that will not have been worth the cost.”

“"I'm interested in this issue: how has Islam gotten to the state that it is in now? Where is it healthier and what can be done to turn things around?
last edited: 11/30/07 9:00:53 AM�
pedxing"

I don't intend to single out Islamists or any other individual group, but I have to suggest we consider organized religeon in general as one of the biggest causes of the sad state of human affairs.

And before you folks who are ardent believers get all bent out of shape, I'm not being critical of your belief or your GD, I'm being critical of the human beings BEHIND your organized religeon that teach that there's only one way - your way - and are so intolerant of anyone with a different belief system!

I happened to turn on the tube last night, and lo & behold one of my all-time fav movies was on... Inherit the Wind.. have to simultaneously laugh & cry everytime I see that, what a great example of the insanity, pain & suffereing that some humans with their religeous fervor cause!

I can't help but hope that it won't be that many years in the future when we'll be able to look back at all the craziness that fundamentalists of all persuasions are causing today with the same wonder and amusement that I think of when watching Inherit the Wind!”

“Well, our sub-prime mortgage issues, which are now showing signs of creeping thoughout the whole finanical sector, were directly caused by that, which PNAC readers know as that 'Pearl Harbor type' event.
Even more disturbing, is the inability to see that inflation fighting interest rates hikes, instead of retracting at least 5% of the cap gains cut, would be total disaster.
Starve the beast economics, with a basket case war side show, just sparkles in the eyes of mad dog psycho neo-conazis.
Think want you may, but as long as this country allows the balance of wealth to move to top in quest of matching the balance of most of these middle eastern oil giants,things will even deteriorate faster than in the last 7 years.”

““I think you have a good point on 9/11 Sale. I compared the reaction early on to the strategy a weaker boxer might use - slip in one decent punch and hope your opponent will over react striking out in blind rage.

However, I think we need to be watchful and mindful. Succsessfully rebuilding Afghanistan after 9/11 would have been a great first step - especially if it wasn't over-shadowed by an Iraq fiasco, where the best we can hope for is to minimize our losses to make gains that will not have been worth the cost.”
pedxing
5:27:02 PM
11/30/07

First things first, I don't think Iraq has been a disaster. Its getting better and if we keep up the support it will keep getting better over there just like in Afganistan.

Second, there was more than one good punch. Starting with the 1993 WTC bombing and leaving out lots of jabs and body punches ...

World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York City was badly damaged when a car bomb planted by Islamic terrorists exploded in an underground garage. The bomb left 6 people dead and 1,000 injured. The men carrying out the attack were followers of Umar Abd al-Rahman, an Egyptian cleric who preached in the New York City area.

Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.

Saudi Military Installation Attack, November 13, 1995: The Islamic Movement of Change planted a bomb in a Riyadh military compound that killed one U.S. citizen, several foreign national employees of the U.S. government, and over 40 others.

Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack.

U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. Embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing 7 FSNs and 3 Tanzanian citizens, and injuring 1 U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. Embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Laden responsible.

Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Laden were suspected.

Manila Bombing, December 30, 2000: A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. Embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front was likely responsible.

then came the big one ...

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001: Two hijacked airliners crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Soon thereafter, the Pentagon was struck by a third hijacked plane. A fourth hijacked plane, suspected to be bound for a high-profile target in Washington, crashed into a field in southern Pennsylvania. The attacks killed 3,025 U.S. citizens and other nationals. President Bush and Cabinet officials indicated that Usama Bin Laden was the prime suspect and that they considered the United States in a state of war with international terrorism. In the aftermath of the attacks, the United States formed the Global Coalition Against Terrorism.”

“Sure, Ped, but to expect anything resembling a reasonable discussion of that here is wishful thinking in the extreme.”

“However, the virulent extremest strain that has long been absent, or at least reduced to a very small marginal minority, in the West, is only one aspect of the Islamic world today. - pedxing

Hmmm ... really? A "very small marginal minority"?

Not according to page 53 and 54 of this Pew Research document: http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

There are 195,000 Muslims in the U.S. who are in that "very small marginal minority". And that's just in the U.S.”

“But I see things like death sentences for conversion to Christianity, the fatwah for the death of Salmon Rushdie, the riots over the cartoons of the prophet, the Saudi woman who was gang raped receiving prison and lashes for being alone with an un-related man, and now the Teddy Bear drama in Sudan:

The thing that I find the most ironic is that for centuries Muslims have been critical of Judaism and claiming the rabbis did this and the rabbis did that and Jews don't follow G-d but their rabbis. Yet look how willing and dogmatic the Muslims are to carry fatwahs that tell them to murder?”

“tilt thinks any discussion that doesn't agree with his point of view is unreasonable.”

“Hyway, you're a clown. I treat clowns poorly. ooga booga”

“First things first, I don't think Iraq has been a disaster. Its getting better and if we keep up the support it will keep getting better over there just like in Afganistan.

72-0 with 7seconds and as the buzzer rings a fieldgoal brings it in at72-3. hooray!

Yah, the Stans are all in great shape.”

“I now understand why most of your posts make no sense. You have event dyslexia which impacts your sentence structure. 72 - 0 lol. You act like we are getting run out of the country after having our ass handed to us. We aren't being run out, the left is trying to drag us out.”

“Sarge: When I was thinking of severe extremism in the West, I was actually thinking more culturally than geographically. I should have been more precise about that. There was a time when many Western societies condoned witch burnings, severe punishments for blasphemy - etc.

That said, it looks like the Pew poll suggests that among Moslems in the West it is a pretty small minority that are the real extremists. For example there is a 5% favorable opinion of Al Qeda.”

“I agree ped. All societies have their savages.

Concerning the favorable rating of al queda among western muslims, I bet Al Queda's favorablity rating is higher than 5% among western liberals.”

“Yeah, we should own or savages and our savagery - but I'm proud that the USA and Western Civilization has done some really good work in dealing with our savages. This is particularly true of our religious fanatics. They are far fewer in number and much less dangerous. I'll take a handful of zealots being horribly obnoxious at military funerals over riots, death and destruction over cartoons any day. I'll take a minority who think homosexuality should be outlawed over a majority who think homosexuals should be killed, or a minority who think women should obey their husbands over a country where the law commands beating and jailing a woman for being alone with an unrelated man.

It doesn't mean we should be complacent, or pretend that we are perfect or innocent.”

“You have got to be joking!

"A small minority" is not what you originally said. The al world impact difference between pedxing claim #1, and pedxing claim #2 are night and day.

Do you know how many muslims there are?

Support of AQ isn't the big issue.

You're all over the place. You're not as focused as just a few yeats ago.”

“Care to offer an English translation?”

“72 virgins-0 golden bricks- does that help you with the score-Bore.”

“How is this?...

very small marginal implies insignificant and assumes relevancy

MILLIONS of muslims who believe it's cool to behead peeps for not praying to Allah is NOT marginal.

That's like saying there is a "very small marginal minority" of murders everyday in the U.S., compared to people not murdered.

Whah?”

“A very interesting survey of British Muslims after the London bombings.

Clicky”

“pedxing - between my Pew Survey and Nigal's link, you can't possibly think that the extremist Muslim's represent a "marginal" minority.”

“Islam is going through a long drawn out internal revolution/evolution. In much of the world they are roughly 800 years behind the other cultures. Hopefully they will get through this, rejoin the planet, be responsible citizens and in the process not drag the rest of us down with them. It is a minority that are dangerous but then a majority enables this behavior. Islam for now is inferior.

Yes, this subject does attract the bigots but then so what? Ignore them. Talking about angry little white men...is that any better?

How about middle aged confused liberals who always blame angry little white men?

lame”

“It is a minority that are dangerous

A minority of 5 BILLION people.”

“I named my hemorrhoid "Sarge".”

“You have a hemorrhoid. HaHa!

”

“If muslims comprise 76% of earths population you christians better learn something a little less dangerous than war.”

“Sarge - you totally misunderstood me.

As I clarified: The very small and marginalized portion I mentioned was meaning Western Culture. I don't think of the Moslems you or Nigal describe as having been assimilated into Western Culture. I was contrasting how well western culture had done in marginalizing extremism to how rampant the extremists were in most Islamic societies.

My point in the thread was to say that there was no denying that there is a huge problem in many Islamic Societies.

I then noted, that according to the Pew Poll you linked to seemed to indicate that in the US extremists were a small minority among Moslems. Nigals link points in that direction. What the numbers show to me is that exposure to the West has had some moderating influence, but that the extremist minority is not adequately marginalized in either Britan or the US.

Among the Moslem communities in the US and Europe it seems that there are way too many extremists, they are way too well tolerated by their co-religionists respect and they are quite vocal and visible relative to the moderates.”

“Ok, forgive me, I want to understand. Are you saying that they are mariginal in effective threat, or are marganilized? I think there is a difference.

I thought before you were saying they are a "marginal minority", but now you seem to be saying they are "marginalized".

I really am sorry, you and I just aren't connecting here. Thanks.”

“the Pew Poll you linked to seemed to indicate that in the US extremists were a small minority among Moslems.

It not only indicated that, but it also indicated there are TENS of THOUSANDS of Muslims in the U.S. who think the wacky Al Q techniques are okay by them.”

“Sarge - I don't think we have much disagreement here. My original point when I spoke about "marginal" had nothing to do with Moslems or rather I was using it to describe how things are among Westerners. I was saying that among most Islamic societies, the viruelnt extremists aren't so marginal.

I was trying to say: Among we Westerners, there are just a few virulent extremists and they are pretty marginal. On the other hand, in the Islamic world (and that would include Islamic communities in the West) the virulent extremists are much more of a factor. In some countries they seem to control the streets and the courts. In the West, they are a small minority - but in many Islamic communities in the West, they haven't been made marginal and are even accorded respect.”

“ok”

“�If muslims comprise 76% of earths population you christians better learn something a little less dangerous than war.�
salebored


(lol) sale thinks "numbers" win....”