What do you wear to bed in the cold?

“Maybe it's the body burning calories to keep in where those calories could be going to produce body heat?”

“I suppose it would stand to reason the more mass you have to heat, the more heat it takes to do so. By that reasoning, if you were able to reduce the mass and maintain the level of BTU then everything would be warmer. The only mass I can see easily eliminating (pun intended) would be bodily waste. Sounds like getting rid of the urine could have some benefit.”

“from a hypothermia website:

Allow the person to urinate before wrapping him or her. The body will use more
heat keeping a full bladder warm than it will to protect vital organs.”

“Obviously you people haven't gone out in negF temps to piss.”

“now that is a truely perverse biological foible. Pee gets more resources that the vital organs? how bizarre.”

“Certainly no authority, but from a gear site:

You also need water as fuel � avoid alcohol as it will dehydrate you � causing the body to run cold. Sorry, but that flushed feeling you get when drinking isn�t good body heat. On the other hand, drinking so much that you have a full bladder is a diversion of resources for your body as well, not to mention just plain uncomfortable. You can better warm the air around you in your sleeping bag if you have an empty bladder. ”

“the flush from alcohol is from the dilation of blood vessels which can cause core body cooling faster than usual.”

“[quote]“I suppose it would stand to reason the more mass you have to heat, the more heat it takes to do so. By that reasoning, if you were able to reduce the mass and maintain the level of BTU then everything would be warmer. The only mass I can see easily eliminating (pun intended) would be bodily waste. Sounds like getting rid of the urine could have some benefit.”[/quote]


But it's already warm. The energy has already been spent. Any heat you have inside you is keeping you warm... The heat is escaping your body to the colder outside...

Can you give me the link to that Hypothermia Website?”

“lee, you're ignoring that you're going out IN THE COLD.”

“Actually . .. that is good reason for wearing something in your bag.


It is impossible (for me) to get through a whole night winter camping.

Between being in the bag at 8:00 (dark, cold etc) and waking up evey two hours with a crushed shoulder . . .it is inevitable that around 2:00am I am standing on snow bank peeing.


So yes .. . .I have peed countless times at sub zero temps.

Only once did I resort to a pee bottle. Was in a tent (which is a pain in the butt to get in and out of quickly) and temp was just at freezing and it was pouring rain.”

““Obviously you people haven't gone out in negF temps to piss.”

You got that right, Sarge!”

“Your body temp will lower more from THE COLD than holding your pee. Think about it.”

“I guess i don't understand what "going out in the cold" matters???


I mean. . .I think I get it. You would argue that you lose more warmth standing on a snowbank peeing than just holding it and staying in your bag.


that has not been my experience.


My experience is that, for a myriad of reasons, getting up, getting a shot of cold air, working the kink out of my shoulders, peeing, etc etc . . .all serve to help me sleep better.

The shot of cold air gives me a quick chill . .burying back in the bag and getting all closed up again actually makes me feel warmer. . .

Again ...just my experience and preference .. not trying to impose my world view as correct.

Have camped for years in winter almost always in temps below 20, often in single digits, occaissionally below zero.”

“This whole pee issue reminds me of a drunk I met at a party once who maintained an excellent weight loss program was to stand naked outside in zero degree weather (or a cold storage unit) because trying to stay warm would burn calories and hence you lose weight.

There was no arguing with this drunk... so I found someone new to talk to. I can't hold a full bladder for any length of time anyway so it don't matter to me.”

“This is how I see it: sure, it may lower your temp more to get out in freezing temps to pee than it would if you stayed in bed, but when you get back in bed it only takes a few minutes to warm up. If you didn't get out to pee, you'd stay cold.


I get cold no matter what I do, lol.
last edited: 1/29/08 7:34:25 AM”

““Your body temp will lower more from THE COLD than holding your pee. Think about it.”
Sarge
10:21:44 AM
1/29/08

Can anyone say, "pee bottle?"”

“As long as the pee don't freeze so fast that I get stuck I don't really have a problem.”

“I can: "pee bottle."”

“I already said it, umpteen posts ago.

Would you guys make up your minds, I gotta piss.”

“lee -
My experience is that, for a myriad of reasons, getting up, getting a shot of cold air, working the kink out of my shoulders, peeing, etc etc . . .all serve to help me sleep better.

Me too, but we're not talking about that.

zac - yeah, that's the best way.”

“I've gone out of the tent to pee many freezing nights. Instantly warmer when I get back in the bag. Everytime I wish I had a pair of those fancy overlapping crotch patagonia long underwear. Getting out of the bag and tent isn't the hard part, it's dropping trou that really hurts.

Ickyma, try it and see what happens next time you wake up cold. It works. And that pee is only warm because your body is expending energy warming it, instead of warming your extremities. It's not created warm.”

“Sarge --

I understand your point. However, out on the trail, in a bag at 2:00am I am not conducting science experiments, I am trying to warm up, relieve my bladder and get more comfortable (all at the same time).

I am merely replying that, for practical purposes, for me (and apparently for Sass) . .the act of getting up, peeing, cracking my back, etc . ..

makes me instantly warmer, more comfortable and helps get me an extra couple of hours of sleep.

I know that ( for me) the two minutes of desperate cold is MUCH MUCH better than an hour, or more of fitful full bladder, scrunched shoulder, vaguely chilled, tossing and turning.

And after all .. . .since Trail Talk is bereft of anyone with any real scientific knowledge (no matter how hard we all pretend) . ..isn't an exchange of practical knowledge in part what this forum is about?”

“Of course you feel warmer when you get back in the bag. But you're colder than you were before you went outside.

Once your pee is warm, which doesn't take long (it's generated in your body), it doesn't take a lot to keep it warm. If you're THAT cold inside your tent/sleeping bag, that the cold is penetrating into your bladder, you have other problems.”

“Sarge, are you f'n with us?”

“solution:
Pee in a bottle that you can then close tight, put it in your bag with you to retain the warmth of the pee.....empty outside the tent before refilling......problem solved.”

““I've gone out of the tent to pee many freezing nights. Instantly warmer when I get back in the bag. Everytime I wish I had a pair of those fancy overlapping crotch patagonia long underwear. Getting out of the bag and tent isn't the hard part, it's dropping trou that really hurts.

Ickyma, try it and see what happens next time you wake up cold. It works. And that pee is only warm because your body is expending energy warming it, instead of warming your extremities. It's not created warm.”


But it is created that way... From the time the liquid enters your body, to the time it actually clears the kidneys and enters the bladder... it has already been warmed up. This process burns calories...

The Urine itself is "created warm". By the time it reaches Urine status, it's warm.

And it won't cool off. It won't require any extra energy to keep it warm... If it's not cooling off, it doesn't need to be warmed up.”

““solution:
Pee in a bottle that you can then close tight, put it in your bag with you to retain the warmth of the pee.....empty outside the tent before refilling......problem solved.”

That's what I said... That's where this conversation started :)”

“Don't wake up thirsty and drink from the container........ :)”

“Then we on the same page ickyma....great minds work in the same circles.....”

“Criminy, I never thought I'd find a conversation about pee interesting. I would like to see what the difference is in terms of degrees.

To pee, or not to pee. THAT is the question.
-Bill Shakespeare”

“you know, that warm pee is just like heating up water and putting it in a bottle and then in your bag with you....hell, you could wrap your socks around it too, to dry em out during the night....”

“You know there are some dribbles running down the side of that container. And those get absorbed somewhere. Personally, sleeping in a urinal doesn't appeal.”

“just don't dribble, or wipe it off well before cozy'n up to it.....”

“I slept on an exposed deck last weekend, at about 10 degrees, no tent, just on a Big Agnes pad. I was a bit cold, it was like the bag had certain areas that were cool, and I had to avoid those areas. I was wearing just underwear. I got up, put on long johns, a hat, a neck gaitor, and down booties, and I was toasty.

I hate hate hate having to get up at night to pee, but I sleep a lot more restfully if I'm not full, so these days I take an empty bottle inside the tent or snow shelter, and fill it during the night.

On the idea of whether holding it costs you energy, hey if you want to hold it go ahead. My theory of the physics is that your body is radiating heat all the time, and your body also has a furnace that puts out heat to keep your mass which is mostly water at a temperature that is quite a bit higher than the surrounding area. Just stand or sit on a foam pad in winter, and it feels warm. Its not warm, its just that the flow of heat out of your feet or butt has been blocked.

Not buying it yet? take 10 water bladders and fill them with warm water, and strap them next to your skin, and go to sleep. For awhile they will warm you, but when they cool off you will be warming them. Your internal furnace will have more mass to keep at temperature, and that mass does not contribute to metabolism, its just a dead load that is radiating heat. Same as water in you internal bladder, but I don't think the actual heat loss would be a big deal, but "holding it" would be annoying.”

“On the idea of whether holding it costs you energy, hey if you want to hold it go ahead. My theory of the physics is that your body is radiating heat all the time, and your body also has a furnace that puts out heat to keep your mass which is mostly water at a temperature that is quite a bit higher than the surrounding area. Just stand or sit on a foam pad in winter, and it feels warm. Its not warm, its just that the flow of heat out of your feet or butt has been blocked.

Not buying it yet? take 10 water bladders and fill them with warm water, and strap them next to your skin, and go to sleep. For awhile they will warm you, but when they cool off you will be warming them. Your internal furnace will have more mass to keep at temperature, and that mass does not contribute to metabolism, its just a dead load that is radiating heat. Same as water in you internal bladder, but I don't think the actual heat loss would be a big deal, but "holding it" would be annoying.”

That's a good point... once the bottle becomes colder than you, then your body is radiating heat into that bottle to keep it warm...

At that point, I'd suggest setting that bottle outside your sleeping bag... But, still, take advantage of what warmth it does provide for as long as it's provides... Use that energy (the energy you imparted unto it in the first place) as long as possible...

No sense in pissin' it away (so to speak). :)”

“lee - I've already stated that I too feel better going outside, but that's not what this question was about, it was about staying warm. Your patronizing response to me that we should share ideas and opinions - THAT is what I am doing, same as you. Why state the obvious?

Nonconformist - No. What about my posts caused you to ask that?”

“I had just never heard that before so I ass-u-med (because of history) you were messing with lee--and me.”

“"since Trail Talk is bereft of anyone with any real scientific knowledge (no matter how hard we all pretend) . ..isn't an exchange of practical knowledge in part what this forum is about?"

Lee, I'd have to disagree with you on the level of technical expertise of TTers. I think you would find a number of scientists, engineers and technical people in the ranks. Their backgrounds add to their practical experience, and as you note, exchanging practical experiences is good.”

“I assume you are referring to this Noncon - "Of course you feel warmer when you get back in the bag. But you're colder than you were before you went outside."

I'll make up numbers to illustrate since I don't have a thermometer in my bag...

Say you're bag temp is 75 and your body temp is 98 in your bag. Then you go outsize to wiz, where it's -10. Your body is out there long enough to drop your temp to 97.5. Then you get back into your bag where it's now 70 (your warm body hasn't been in there). You feel warmer, because you just went from -10 to 70, but in actuality, your body is still at 97.5, and has to warm back up again.

Does that explain?”

“No fancy pee chart? lol.

I got what you were saying, I had always heard the opposite. This is the first time I've heard an argument for staying put.”

“I think if you're outside already, it's a no-brainer. The best option is to pee in a container. Personally, I go outside because I don't like to hold it.”

“Zactly...”

“I don't think my tent mate would appreciate the bottle, lol. I usually just get up because I've somehow passed that age where I have to get up every night to pee anyway.”

“I haven't seen any science to back up either claim. I can only speak from what I've experienced: I've spent lots and lots of freezing nights in my tent and sleeping bag and can say from experience that when I wake up cold and with a full bladder... I often fight the pee because I don't like getting up. But, I just end up staying in my sleepy bag, shivering. As soon as I give in to the urge by getting out to release my bladder, I am much much warmer. I don't know why it works. It just works.

nc - your tent mate doesn't mind the bottle. just point it in a different direction...”

“I don't know why it works. It just works.

I explained above why it works.”

“Peeing in a bottle is a bit of a culture jolt, but its very practical, convenient and not unsanitary. I rarely have tent mates, plus they would never know, and third, who cares what they think?”

“Perhaps I should rephrase:

I don't care why it works. It just works.”

“That's a good point tarabull. If having to pee is keeping you up and making you realize the cold, why not get out and pee (or go in a bottle), get back in, "feel" warmer, and get some sleep?”

“That's not the point I made. But, ok.”

“Sorry, I didn't try to misrepresent what you wrote.”