Hiker Missing on Blood Mountain

“pamela, my grandfather was a deeply religious christian man. he was also a very curious person. he was always wondering about things that he never had a chance to understand because the reality of his life prevented him from gaining the education that would have permitted him to understand the things that fueled his inquisitive nature. he believed that when he died God would take him to heaven and explain to him all the things he never had the opportunity to understand in this life. his belief was totally irrational yet his faith allowed him to accept the shortcomings of what life presented him and still lead a very fulfilling and prosperous life. for me his life was always a very powerful testimony of what faith can do for a person.

in turn i have always had an irrational belief that this testimony was in some way intentionally offered to me as a powerful lesson to temper my over-dependence on rational thought. this testimony has always haunted me, more so since he passed away just over a year ago. part of me believes that this is a testimony whose meaning will be revealed to me later in my life when perhaps my need (willingness?) to accept irrational ideas through faith will become more important. i guess to this day i understand the words he spoke when he explained this to me but i have yet to fully comprehend what he was saying.

he was a very irrational person. he accepted a great many things as true that were not rational based on what must have been a very strong faith in his christian god. in doing so he led a life that was far more full and prosperous than i am betting most people could imagine for themselves. i loved him dearly and not a week goes by since his passing that i don't think about him and miss his guidance... guidance that never came from preaching or a lecture... his example came through my observing him as i grew up and witnessing the role faith played as an integral part of who he was as a man. the truth be known he probably never had a clue i even noticed. not a week goes by where i don't curse the fact that i never told him how much i appreciated what he unknowingly taught me.”

“I wouldn't stand for namecalling like that if I were you ---”

“What?”

“If you never asked him, how do you know his beliefs were irrational?”

“marko, my question about soldiers was in response to jimmy san saying that all life is valuable and as a society we shouldn't decide together to take someone else's life. I was just wondering if that philosophy caries over to soldiers and wars thusly making him a pacifist as just described by ramblinrev?”

“I was just wondering if that philosophy caries over to soldiers and wars thusly making him a pacifist as just described by ramblinrev?”
hyway
11:50:50 PM
1/10/08

I can not speak for anyone but myself, but there is something in the wording that I am not sure I understand. My beliefs are my own. I do not project them upon anyone else. Case in point.. I have a son who is in the US Air Force. While I could not, would not serve in the military , I am very proud of my son. Even though his job entails the maintenance of aircraft used to inflict violence and destruction on other countries, I can not and will not fault him for following the direction which he chose to go. I do not wish to sound belligerent here so please excuse me if I do. Most of the pacifists I know feel the same way. The choice we make is for us alone and is not to be considered prescriptive for someone else.”

“rev, you must be skipping over some posts, but jimmy san was making a comment on what society should or shouldn't do, not what we should or shouldn't do on a personal basis. So he is speaking for everyone and not just himself.”

“Projecting beliefs, and having a moral standard, as concepts, are mutually exclusive.

The bible tells us to hold the biblical standard up to one another - to preach - to hold accountable - to rebuke even. In that case, we should "project" onto others.
last edited: 1/10/08 9:23:40 PM”

“Perhaps I read his posts with a different understanding. Not that either of us are understanding incorrectly,,, just differently. I understand your statement.”

“Pam I never once said that all the vets in the VA system are crazies please re-read my post!�
Spam

no, i don't think you did Spam, but i wanted to stop people from automatically going there, as a vet i hear it all the time.”

“Now THAT's funny!”

“Not that either of us are understanding incorrectly,,, just differently.

How can that be?”

“�So what about the guy administering the lethal injections - how do the Christians here view him - how will he be treated when he meets his maker? Would you yourselves feel comfortable in administering the lethal dosage?�
Y2

i see him the same way i see soldiers. they are doing something necessary, like surgeons they are cutting a cancer out to save the body.

i don't know. i don't think i could know until i was actually there.

what does God think? i don't know. i don't proclaim to know every thought of God, i am afterall only human.

i think perhaps if the man giving the injections does so with faith that he IS indeed doing the right thing, then his faith will save him. God will forgive him when he gets there and stands at the throne. however if he gives every injection with the belief that what he is doing is wrong, then he is doing something without repentance, he will need to repent and stop what he is doing before he meets the Lord.”

“God himself administered lethal justice many times so how could he damn the executioner for doing the same thing.”

“Pam, I don't want to sound argumentative here, but are you saying that I can decide for myself what is right or wrong, and God would be ok with whatever I did if I felt it was right?

What about all the people out there who think "I don't have to believe in Jesus, I can just be a good person"? How will they, as non-believers be judged?”

“�pamela, my grandfather was a deeply religious christian man. he was also a very curious person. he was always wondering about things that he never had a chance to understand because the reality of his life prevented him from gaining the education that would have permitted him to understand the things that fueled his inquisitive nature. he believed that when he died God would take him to heaven and explain to him all the things he never had the opportunity to understand in this life. his belief was totally irrational yet his faith allowed him to accept the shortcomings of what life presented him and still lead a very fulfilling and prosperous life. for me his life was always a very powerful testimony of what faith can do for a person.

in turn i have always had an irrational belief that this testimony was in some way intentionally offered to me as a powerful lesson to temper my over-dependence on rational thought. this testimony has always haunted me, more so since he passed away just over a year ago. part of me believes that this is a testimony whose meaning will be revealed to me later in my life when perhaps my need (willingness?) to accept irrational ideas through faith will become more important. i guess to this day i understand the words he spoke when he explained this to me but i have yet to fully comprehend what he was saying.

he was a very irrational person. he accepted a great many things as true that were not rational based on what must have been a very strong faith in his christian god. in doing so he led a life that was far more full and prosperous than i am betting most people could imagine for themselves. i loved him dearly and not a week goes by since his passing that i don't think about him and miss his guidance... guidance that never came from preaching or a lecture... his example came through my observing him as i grew up and witnessing the role faith played as an integral part of who he was as a man. the truth be known he probably never had a clue i even noticed. not a week goes by where i don't curse the fact that i never told him how much i appreciated what he unknowingly taught me.�
Jimmy san

Jimmy san, your Grandfather and I know the same Lord. While I am here on earth I spend as much time as I can learning, but I know I will never learn all. I also accept that being human I will never fully understand the mind of God. I know that with my tiny lifespan and little bitty communities I live in and am part of, I will never see or understand the whole picture, all of the lives I touch or the way all of the lives have touched me, or the way all of the lives have entertwined and touched each other throughout this world and time, and created the stories that it has created. But He does. He sees it all. So when He says the plans He has for me are for good and not for evil, I trust Him. I can't see how it all goes or works together, I don't have too. It's all about faith.

Never the less, I have a lot of questions for Him and I DO expect Him to explain it all when I get up there.”

“God sees everyone as sinners.

An executioner, murderer, liar, whatever, doesn't sin MORE than another person. He doesn't keep a scoresheet, and have an arbitrary cutff of say, 750,000 sins.

We all need Jesus.”

“Ducttape... You raise an interesting question which has been debated for centuries and will probably go on until the of time. Christians are told they need to be governed by civil authority so long as it does not conflict with our obligation to God. The executioner who functions under civil authority is therefore duty-bound to carry out his task. If for one reason or other he can not then he is duty bound to remove himself (or herself) from that civil position.
I could not serve as an executioner because I would be unable to comply with the requirements of the job.
It is very clear in Scripture that the civil government _does_ have the authority to establish a death penalty. In addition there are cities of refuge established where anyone under a death sentence may go to and where that sentence may not be carried out so long as the person is not in violation of other capital crimes.

The debate of the commandment "You shall not kill" has gone on for ages. It can be properly translated either as Do not kill and do not commit murder. For the difference it makes see the very cogent comment above.

As for the others who do not follow the Biblical teachings, once again the battle rages on in the debates. There is Paul's comment about those who are not covered by the Biblical "Law" have become a "Law unto themselves." There are some who believe that means that how they live according to their own understandings will in fact determine their final destiny in eternity. Others would just as vehemently disagree.
last edited: 1/11/08 5:00:30 AM”

“It can be properly translated either as Do not kill and do not commit murder.

Not only is the word used, clearly the word for "murder" (lo tirsah) (not kill, lo taharog), but if it were kill, that would conflict with an extremely large amount of material in the Bible. It certainly does not mean "kill".”

“Do we have to keep repeating the same mantra "Oh, this is so sad, ... I feel sorry for her family ... sending happy thoughts their way." Yeah, I think we can move beyond that. Don't you?��

no, i dont. because if theres anything i stand for, its staying on-topic and not allowing thread degeneration

~rolls eyes~”

“We're clearly on topic here crash. welax”

“H7523
רצח
râtsach
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

Exodus 20:13 Sorry sarge I'll take Strong's over your authority any day of the week. I guess I'm just funny that way.”

“hateful sarcasm aside, you're ignoring the clarification of Strongs (the word used is killing, but it's a specific kind of killing - "murder"), and, a large percentage of the Bible.

Are you saying the when God asked people to "kill", he was asking them to sin?

Read this more lengthy text on this page from Strong's: http://www.laborersinchrist.org/answers/h.htm
last edited: 1/11/08 5:23:27 AM”

“Render unto Cesar those things which are Cesar's...render unto God those things which are his.”

“clearly the word for "murder" (lo tirsah) (not kill, lo taharog),


Sarge you have not even transliterated the correct word. I still stand by Strong's. You are free to do what you want.”

“Strong's says it's the specific kind of killing called "murder".

I'm glad we agree on that.

Also, God does not tell people to sin, by His nature, so you're obviously in a serious conflict of understanding what it's saying. I say so, and Strong's (your source) says so.

Even the King James Bible was modified to fit the more correct/specific term.
last edited: 1/11/08 5:30:45 AM”

“yes, yes, yes... we are all sinners in the eyes of god. all sin is ugly in the eyes of god... an excuse people have used to justify all sorts of terrible things. all sin may be equal in the eyes of god but how a sinner responds to their sin is NOT. said another way, i believe all sins are equal before god but all sinners are not. some are willing to accept salvation by turning from their sin and repenting for their actions (which often entails making right that which you did wrong). others are not. i have always been shocked by christians that believe all they must do is pray and their sins (which are all equal) are "washed away" without any thought as to how hard it is to really, truly turn from sin yet alone repent for their actions. this blank check salvation stuff always sat wrong with me. salvation does have a price and some people are willing of paying it and others are not.”

“while degree and quantity of sin may not be relevant in differentiating one sinner from another in the eyes of god (and we are all sinners) certainly the way in which a sinner responds to their sins does. some people are willing to turn from their sins and repent for their actions. some are only able to do this to a lesser extent. i think many of the christians i know have taken the "wash my sins away" message way too far and neglect that the promise christ made to man does have a price and that price is turning away from your sinful actions and repenting.”

“Jimmy san, where did that come from? I agree with your biblical insight, but who here is talking about saying a "prayer" and "justifying their sins"? That part seemed to come from nowhere.”

“Lest we get too mcuh farther astray from the original thread.... and this does have the potential for endless rabbit warrens... I am not pursuing the entire Gospel message is going to get us very far in the discussion of capital punishment. As demonstrated above, scholars can gnaw Hebrew roots until their teeth fall out and they will not come to agreement anytime soon.”

“I'd be interested to see a reputable Hebrew scholar that doesn't think the more precise meaning is "murder".”

“I am not pursuing the entire Gospel message is going to get us very far in the discussion of capital punishment

ARRRGGGGG I hate my typos. That should read...
:I am not sure pursuing.......”

“Ok sarge... let me break it down for you. If you do a comparison of english translations you will find both rendered. Either one of them is "wrong" or they are both correct is so far as translation is concerned. Every translation is an interpretation.”

“There are lots of bad translations of the Bible out there. My concern is which is right. I think you're onto something with the Hebrew scholars. What's the deal with the Hebrew scholars who don't specify "murder", do you know of any?”

“my final posting on this..

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon

H7523
רצח
râtsach
BDB Definition:
1) to murder, slay, kill
1a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1a1) premeditated
1a2) accidental
1a3) as avenger
1a4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
1b) (Niphal) to be slain
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to murder, assassinate
1c2) murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive)
1d) (Pual) to be killed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2208”

“I think that's pretty clear that it's the specific kind of killing called "murder". I assume you've agreed with me on this by that posting. Hopefully that clarifies for people that God condemns murder, but not necessarily all killing. Thanks for the discussion.”

“I hope this helps settle the mud as to why there can be so many different views held by sincere people of deep faith and integrity. Those who base their view of capital punishment on Biblical text, and not all do, Can hold widely divergent convictions and they can point to text for support. Other faith traditions come at this differently. I know many secular humanists who oppose capital punishment based on foundations completely different than Biblical source. Not being conversant in those foundations I'll let others discuss those.”

“It seems to me that if God wanted to be understood, there wouldn't be this ambiguity.”

“You have a point hyway. By the same token, even secular humanists have disagreements as to what should really be the case. To find ambiguity is the human means of avoiding that which challenges us.

Edit... I am going back to bed until I wake up...

To avoid ambiguity is
last edited: 1/11/08 7:29:30 AM”

“The difference is that secular books aren't reported to be the word of an all knowing, all powerful deity.”

“The most pacifist religion in the world to my knowledge is Jainism. The highest order of Jain monks are totally nude (except for a mouth and nose covering) so as not to exploit any other living entity. They are wholly vegan eating only those plants which will naturally regenerate. They wear a veil across their nose and mouth so that no insect might fly in and die. The sweep the road or sidewalk in front of them to remove any critters that might get stepped on.

There are not too many high Jain monks in the US. But they would succumb to attack with out resistance rather than resist their attackers.”

“...just a tidbit here......I have learned that just because I think or feel something, doesn't mean I'm right......”

“Divinity.. that is my point about being willing to accept ambiguity in my life.”

“�...just a tidbit here......I have learned that just because I think or feel something, doesn't mean I'm right......�
divinity
10:01:59 AM
1/11/08

Divinity is one sharp cookie.”

“I wonder if one could be wrong about accepting their ambiguity, that that could be the wrong decision. Is that ambiguous? Certainly. Perhaps not accepting ambiguity, but searching for truth (not accepting a worldview based on relativity) is the only right. Due to accepting ambiguity's very nature, that could very well be the case. But, does that conclusion then render the original ambiguity incorrect, (it certainly sounds like it)? ... in turn, rendering the final conclusion incorrect (that we should seek truth)?

It sounds like a no-win situation to me, and a logical path to nowhere. Better is to accept a singlular truth and seek to find it.”

“Part of my opposition to the death penalty is based on my anger and disgust at Gary Hilton in this case but there have been, are, and will be others. It is too easy for me to write him off and say get rid of him, lock him up and throw away the key... let him rot.

When I look deep inside I do not like where that attitude leads me. I have have thoughts of killing someone. It would be possible for me to do given the right circumstances. What does that say about me? How can I tacitly indulge those thoughts and crave clemency and then turn my back on someone whose inner thoughts I am not privy to. Please understand, I am not advocating a no consequences approach.”

“"Better is to accept a singlular truth and seek to find it."
Sarg

How can you accept a singular truth without first finding it.

Is that a conundrum?”

“"singular truth" as a concept ... just like we were talking about "ambiguity" as a concept.”

“There are many singular truths, each a truth unto themselves.”

“Truly.”