Toyota #2 in US Sales, Ford #3

“everyone played a part in the banking failure from those of us who took out 125% loans to lowlifes that sold those loans to the crooks that cooked the books at fannie mae and freddie mac to the crooks in congress who took the payoffs to look the other way. No one is innocent here”

“This post has a lot of Fuego in it, however I must say I love my 2002 Toyota Echo which has currently 78K miles. Taking a trip to CT to visit family and last time only used 5 tanks of gas round trip. Great cars, my 3rd Toyota , 1st new bought.”

“$30.00 an hour plus overtime, vacay, benefits, etc, for 3/4 million uneducated factory workers? Gimme a break. Die UAW - die.”

“i don't think bankruptcy will work for gm. they are too large. who is going to buy a new car with a 5/50 warranty from a company in chapter 11? these are durable goods, not airline tickets. the future for gm is a government bailout or a total crash. analysis are now saying it will be a penny stock before the end of the year... one today downgraded it to a share price of ... 0 (zero). amazing.

didn't stop me from picking up a 20% profit day-trading their stock.”

“THEY won't be the only ones burning. You all don't understand how much the American auto companies mean to this country. I'd like to invite you to Michigan for a few days.....

And I'm sure it will affect other states as well. Guess what? The state department announced today that the Iraqi refugees/immigrants can no longer come to Michigan (they really like Dearborn/biggest middle Eastern pop outside of the Middle East), because Michigan cannot support them (or their own citizens) anymore. And the bail out won't come soon enough. Parts distributors get their $ about three months after they deliver the goods. That would be January. Guess who is feeling iffy about providing parts now to a company that may be out of business in January?

The shiznit has hit the fizan in MI. It sucks. I now live in the middle of FIVE empty houses. Feels like the f*cking ghetto all of the sudden.

The government needs those auto companies OPEN to pay the FREAKING CITY and STATE TAXES in communities like mine.”
Sassafras
8:34:42 PM
11/11/08

“Then the bailout funds should be redirected to the communities like mine with three massive GM facilities to rebuild that land for other industry.
It would be nice if there were regulations that came along w/ the bailout funds. I don't trust that the government knows any better what to do than the auto companies.”
Sassafras
5:32:03 AM
11/12/08

Palin/Sass 2012
last edited: 11/12/08 7:36:01 PM”

“Those sound like reasons not to bail them out. That's like using tax money to rebuild uninsured homes in New Orleans.”

“karo-I think GM only uses bits and pieces of the Toyota Production System with the biggest effort being at Saturn. In talking to some of my old GMI fraternity brothers over the weekend, they have spent a lot of time over the years trying to get executive leadership to understand various TPS concepts to little avail.

As a GM retiree, I would like to see GM survive. They do make a lot of good cars. I wish I could believe with conviction that they can turn around if the economy stays down too long.”

“No thanks NCT. I'd rather just spout off on the interweb!”

“GM was building what Joe Sixpack wanted.....a big mofo of a vehicle that looked and handled like a bus and got crappy mileage.”

“My last GM vehicle was an 01 TransAm which cost $30K+ new and I loved that car. But it had more problems in 40K miles than all four of my foreign (2xHonda,1 Toyota,1xHyundai) have had in a combined 275K miles. Experiences like this is why people like me stop buying Big 3 vehicles and purchase from the Reliable 2. This is why America has decided it's time for GM to die, we don't want your cars, the world doesn't want your cars, the baby boomers who are blind brand loyal are dying out. Build a better car and make it on your own or fail like any other business. Myself and millions of non-big 3 owners do not want our hard earned and taxed money spent bailing out failing companies when we are struggling to support our families and pay our mortgages. If you think AIG is wasting money on retreats, how would it feel to see GM spend $50Million of taxpayer money on superbowl commercials? There should have been a "bailout" issue on the ballot so America could have voted it down.”

““What about those that didn't partake - they should pay too right?”

Jeezus, you victimization simply isn't enough for you to contain so you have to project it. For about the last 10 years working at a GM plant has been about as secure as working at a 78rpm record factory. Everyone knew one day GM would end up here. They've been riding the milk cow as far as it'll take 'em. They've had years to get off this cow.”

“but but but *wimper*”

“One of the ads to the right is for Hyundai. Funny.”

“Toyota Reliability Slips in Consumer Reports' Survey



93% of Ford, Lincoln, Mercury models in survey score average or better

YONKERS, NY - October 16, 2007: After years of sterling reliability, Toyota is showing cracks in its armor, according to data from Consumer Reports' 2007 Annual Car Reliability Survey. By contrast, Ford's domestic brands have made considerable improvements. The announcement was made before the Detroit-based Automotive Press Association (APA) today at the Detroit Athletic Club.

The V6 version of the company's top-selling Camry, and the four-wheel-drive V8 version of the Tundra pickup, both redesigned for 2007, now rate below average in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability rating. In addition, the all-wheel-drive version of the Lexus GS sedan also received a below average rating. Because Consumer Reports does not recommend models with below-average reliability, these models no longer make CR's "Recommended" list.

The four-cylinder and hybrid versions of the Camry and rear-drive version of the GS scored above average in reliability and will continue to be Recommended.

Despite these problems, Toyota (including Lexus and Scion) still ranks third in reliability among all automakers, behind only Honda and Subaru. Still, because of these findings, CR will no longer recommend any new or redesigned Toyota-built models without reliability data on a specific design. Previously, new and redesigned Toyota models were recommended because of the automaker's excellent track record, even if CR didn't have sufficient reliability data on the new model. If Toyota returns to its previous record of outstanding overall reliability, CR may resume this practice. Typically, CR will only recommend a vehicle if the magazine has at least one year of reliability data for that specific model.

CR's 2007 survey also shows that the odds of getting a reliable new vehicle from Ford are the best CR has seen in years. Forty-one of 44 Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury models (93%) in CR's survey scored average or better in predicted reliability. The Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan are among the most reliable cars. They and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 V6 make up three of the only four domestic models on Consumer Reports' "Most Reliable" list. In addition, new-for-2007 SUVs such as the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX, as well as the freshened Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator, were all average or above.

"Ford continues to improve," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' Auto Test Center. "The reliability of their cars has steadily improved over the years, and is showing consistency." He added, "We believe Toyota is aware of its issues and is trying to fix problems quickly."

Full reliability history charts and predicted reliability on hundreds of 2008 models, plus a list of what's up and what's down, best and worst models, and a comparison chart of brands can be found online at www.ConsumerReports.org and in the latest Consumer Reports CARS publication, Best & Worst for 2008 ($5.99 U.S./$6.99 Canada) (previously titled New Car Preview), on sale November 6, 2007 everywhere magazines are sold. Consumer Reports CARS is a series of special publications devoted entirely to the automotive market.

Despite Ford's improvement, U.S. brands account for almost half the models --- 20 of 44 --- on CR's list of "Least Reliable" models. Thirteen are from General Motors, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford. European makes account for 17 models, including six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi. Not all models carrying Asian nameplates are reliable, either. The Hyundai Entourage, Infiniti QX56, Mazda CX-7, Nissan Armada (4WD), Quest, and Titan (4WD), and Toyota Tundra (V8, 4WD) are all on the "Least Reliable" list.

Besides the three Toyota-built models, other notable models with declining reliability include the Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon, and Volkswagen Passat (V6).

As for European brands, signs are pointing to an overall improvement. The Audi A3, A4, and A6 are now all above average or better, as are some or all versions of the BMW 3, 5, and 7 series. The Volvo S60 is also above average. The Porsche 911 is above average and is now recommended.

For the first time in recent years, the Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6 RWD) is no longer below average, although an all-new C-Class has been introduced for 2008. Despite this, Mercedes-Benz still hovers near the bottom in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability scores comparison.

Among other reliability findings:
-- Nineteen domestic models have been added to CR's 'Newly Recommended' list. They include the new GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook, in their first years, and the Dodge Charger, which was not recommended in last year's survey because of below-average reliability.

-- Of the domestic models for which CR had sufficient data in the 2007 survey, 93% of Ford, 49% of General Motors, and 67% of Chrysler models had average or better predicted reliability.

-- 34 of the 39 models in the "Most Reliable" list are Asian: 17 are from Toyota (including Lexus and Scion); 7 are from Honda (including Acura); 3 each from Hyundai and Nissan (including Infiniti); 2 are from Subaru; and 1 each from Mitsubishi and Mazda.

-- The Pontiac Solstice has the worst new-car prediction score in the 2007 survey.

-- When ranked by make, Honda and Acura have the highest average scores of the 36 brands. Closely following are Scion, Subaru, and Toyota. Buick is the highest-ranked domestic brand.

-- Among the 36 makes, Land Rover is the least reliable, on average.

Findings are based on responses on almost 1.3 million vehicles owned or leased by subscribers to Consumer Reports or its web site, www.ConsumerReports.org. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2007 by Consumer Reports' National Survey Research Center and covered model years 1998 to 2007.

Consumer Reports' expert team of statisticians and automotive engineers used the survey data to predict reliability of new 2008 models. Predicted reliability is CR's forecast of how well models currently on sale are likely to hold up. To calculate predicted-reliability ratings, CR averages the overall reliability scores (used car verdicts) for the most recent three model years, provided that the model remained unchanged in that period and also didn't substantially change for 2008. If a model was new or redesigned in the past couple of years, one or two years' data may be used, or if that's all that's available.

Consumer Reports annual reliability survey is used in determining which makes and models are recommended to consumers by CR. Consumer Reports recommends only models that have performed well in tests conducted at its 327-acre Auto Test Center in Connecticut, and that have average or better predicted reliability based on its annual survey. In addition, vehicles must perform well in government or insurance-industry crash and rollover tests, if tested, in order to be recommended. Occasionally, Consumer Reports may recommend a new or redesigned model too new to have compiled a reliability record if the previous generation, or the manufacturer's reliability track record has been consistently outstanding, and if the model scores well in CR's tests.

Consumer Reports is one of the most trusted sources for information and advice on consumer products and services. CR has the most comprehensive auto-test program of any American magazine or web site; CR's auto experts have decades of experience in driving, testing, and reporting on cars.”

“GM still seems able to sell a lot of cars, only just behind toyota as being the biggest isn't it. It's also got the top seller in Europe.

Asian markets are about to see a surge in demand.

So lets give up and hand over the keys to what is what worth half-a-trillion dollars in the turnover of the big three at least - annually - probably many times more than that when it's all said and done.
last edited: 11/13/08 7:29:29 AM”

“sasa, that article only confirms what I already suspected. Only Ford of the big 3 are worth saving. I have never owned a GM vehicle so I only know hearsay about them, but I will never ever buy another chrysler product. I've replaced too many transmissions, along with AC compressors and other smaller items, to ever go down that road again. Ford vehicles have always treated me well. They last forever and still hold up well as they age. way back in the 80's I had a datsun 210, my wife has had several hondas, and now has a toyota. None of these cars all together gave us more trouble than the grand voyager we had.”

“My 96 Ranger has 197k on it. I rebuilt the tranmission about 15k ago. My partners Lincoln LS has about 275k on it.”

“I'm waiting for an Icar from Apple.”

“I'm considering replacing our mini van at the end of the year. It'll depend on how much work I see coming in 09, but it seems like it would be a great time to buy. Honda is offering 1.9% for 36 months, and 3.9% for 60. Toyota is 0% for 60. Does Ford not make a minivan anymore?”

“what about the mercury villager?

and here is the replacement for the windstar. its a crossover they call the Flex ...


last edited: 11/13/08 7:50:48 AM”

“Are those spinners?”

“I love the Flex's looks. The gas mileage and reliability? Not so much.”

“I think GM is finally starting to produce some decent cars - certainly in the looks department.

I've always had good luck with Fords in the past.”

“How's it's milage compare to others in its class Nigal? Isn't it a fairly new vehicle to know about it's reliability?”

“I heard about a local guy the other day that went to buy a truck. They knocked 11k off sticker.

I'd rather not have a payment now, but it might be a good time to grab a bargain.

My barter thing I mentioned a while back on a pickup fell threw. The guy wouldn't knock any money off sticker.”

“Flex listed 17/24 as mileage. That's consistant with Sienna and Odyssey”

“And it's a seven passenger vehicle. It's a sharp car. If I had need for something that big and had $ for a new vehicle I'd be getting one. The windstar is crap; it's good Ford replaced it.

We have a Buick now and it's a nice car. It has it's issues, mainly with power windows. Otherwise I've only owned Fords, aside from the VW camper buses. I've never had to do any major repairs on any of my cars except for my first one, a diesel Mercury Lynx. That was my fault as I left the oil cap off after adding some and drove for a month before checking it again (DOH!). But hey, I was seventeen.
My dad drives his cars until they die. He has gotten 300,000+ miles out of an E350, a topaz (yes a topaz!) and his Aerostar. He's working on his second E350 now.”

“the flex looks like ass. "ribbed for her pleasure"”

“Buy a Chevy - It makes CrazyPace fill with joy and happiness.”

“I picture you in a 'over-compensating' vehicle Mutt.”

“Nah, I drive a lesbian's car - subaru forester.”

“I imagine crazy pace will always have plenty of work fixing chevys ;)

I didn't like the windstar either. That's why I bought the Grand Voyager. that was the single biggest purchase blunder i have ever made. I have an older mercury villager now and it has no mechanical concerns. Its been beat up pretty bad cosmetically though but that not Ford's fault.”

“We're very slow right now. Who needs an oil change ?? Hmmmm...anybody??”

“return to the Thanksgiving thread and you will find a couple ladies that need a good greasing”

“I'm just looking now. I normally buy something 2-3 years old. I figure now is a good time to at least look at a new one.”

“I always pictured Mutt as more of a pickup truck kinda guy.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:zZb2z7Z2gYINrM:http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z80/stcogan/mullet.jpg”

“�Nah, I drive a lesbian's car - subaru forester.�
Mutt
8:35:06 AM
11/13/08

LOL!”

“LOL - Mark, I had a mullet all throughout high school. Wore a jean jacket every day, too. Drove a 1971 plymouth duster with a 3.7L slant six - 3 on the tree!
last edited: 11/13/08 9:18:49 AM”

“I'm a little to old to qualify as a boomer and am still going strong, so I suspect there will be boomers around for quite a few more years off to piss off poor little rich kids like Dub:)

The most reliable vehicles I've ever owned are Toyotas. Currently I'm driving a '97 Cherokee with 204K miles. It gets 27 mpg as long as I set the cruise to 55 and I've never had a problem with it. I don't know if they were made by Chrysler in '97, but if so, it was the only reliable Chrysler product I ever had. There was my '69 Charger, but I totaled it to quick to guage reliability...but it did have some difficulty staying on the road at high speeds:)”

“thanks for the read Sass, i have actually read that exact article before

however,

The V6 version of the company's top-selling Camry, and the four-wheel-drive V8 version of the Tundra pickup, both redesigned for 2007, now rate below average in Consumer Reports' predicted reliability rating.

what exactly is "predicted reliability"?...i'd think reliability would be pretty hard to predict

Despite these problems, Toyota (including Lexus and Scion) still ranks third in reliability among all automakers, behind only Honda and Subaru.

no US makers...i've had fords, GMs, toyotas and toyota "like" vehicles...the ford wasn't bad, but not great, the GMs were awful and the toyotas ran forever with little to no maintenance...also this was just for one year...they've been at the top for several other years

as someone else said, of the big 3, i'd be willing to maybe buy a ford
last edited: 11/13/08 9:32:49 AM”

“"I think reliability would be pretty hard to predict" I think your prediction of the reliability of prediction is pretty unpredictable.”

“I had a '67 Corvair. It was a fun car but I didn't have it very long.
While checking out a nice rear end I rear-ended a '65 Malibu.
The Malibu won.”

“Upon what do you predicate that prediction, Nimble?”

“I drove a 1969 Ford Mustang Grande with a 351 Cleveland. vvvvroooooooooommmmmmmm! Army surplus green in color, with a black vinyl roof.

I really looked hot driving that car.

Paid $850 for it in 1979. I had to save up my money FOREEVER to buy that car - I was only making $2.00 per hour.”

“Most reliable vehicle I've owned was a 1990 GMC Sierra, 4.3L V6.

Least was my first car an 1984 Mercury Capri. It was the Mercury version of the Mustang. I paid $350 for it. It had that nice 4 cylinder Pinto engine in it with a whopping 90hp. Color scheme was blue and rust. It would break down at least once a week. The car was beat by the time I bought it though.

I also had an '87 Nissan pickup that liked to eat head gaskets. And the Subaru Forester I just took off the road was by far the most expensive car I've ever owned to up keep.”

“MarkO - SWAG”

“SWAG Smart Wild Ass Guess ???”

“Lumberzac, when Birch was 16 he had one of those go up in flames in his driveway. =) That was one awful car!”