Toyota #2 in US Sales, Ford #3

“If GM gets a bailout I want one too, student loans and mortgages on two houses sucks! Give me free money!”

“We have a 2008 Chev Malibu and love it.

If the big three fall, the fallout will be very bad.”

“the big 3 aren't attached at the hip. All 3 won't fail. The fittest will survive and grow”

“I like that guy.”

“No you don't Hyway, he's one of those east coast elite conservatives that has been moaning about the stupidity of today's GOP.”

“I like him even more”

“Hyway please don't break the continuity of Y2's pigeon holing. If he can't nail something or someone down to a nice neat package he can't deal with reality.

He is the far left version of Stove Stomper. I'm surprised he doesn't answer everything with "Silly neo-con".”

“Nigal - if you stopped sticking that pigeon in your hole it wouldn't be a problem.”

“I mean i know you guys are looking for yourselves right now, but you ain't gonna find it there. ;op”

“But in all seriousness - at a time when we're looking for ways to put money into the economy, taking out a couple hundred billion a year and sending it to Japan is not the best thing to do.”

““Nigal - if you stopped sticking that pigeon in your hole it wouldn't be a problem.” - Y2

Like y2 and male puppies.”

“I don't like the bailout idea but I hate to see the Big Three go under for lots of reasons. Sadly they don't have the leadership to stop their 30 year downhill slide.

Would be nice if Toyota offered to buy GM!”

“�NYT: Bailout to Nowhere�
Nigal
9:16:42 PM
11/15/08


That article made me think of forest fires. The cycle of fire, new growth, maturity, destruction, repeat. What happened at Yellowstone when we managed the forest to prevent the fire? We got a big friggin forest fire when the destruction phase finally came.”

“Maybe GM should do what this guy did and pay their bills with a picture of a spider...

Story”

“After he gave up paying the bill with the spider and the story went viral on the internet he got $15,000 for the drawing on E Bay.”

“he hasn't got the money yet. Its ebay, remember.

The email exchanges were humorous but its the following internet sensation that is really hysterical. The dude is selling keychains of the spider on his webpage and asking for donations and/or photos in the tub. LOL, gotta love an entrepreneuring blogger”

“That's not the only 'spider drawing' being used to solve economic problems on this board.”

“Nigal - if you stopped sticking that pigeon in your hole it wouldn't be a problem.”
Y2
10:14:28 PM
11/15/08

He's your pigeon, Y2.”

“Since so much of the proposed Big 3 bail out concerns wages and benefits paid to union autoworkers, I decided to google auto worker pay scales and see what I could find out. I found no information regarding pay, but their health benefits are better than mine (military retiree. They pay nothing per month and very little to nothing for any procedure/visit/drug. I can see where taxpayers would fairly complain in, perhaps, subsidizing auto worker health benefits when they have none of their own.”

“i think a lot of that is due to change as of 2009 though Nimble, as part of the negotiations.

And does this reflect on them having good coverage, you having poor coverage, or a little of both.”

“Reccomendations now being taken for a new vechicle. Had an accident in the Jeep a few weeks ago (cop cut me off) and it may be totaled if additional damage is found. Jeep is worth about 12K.

Any suggestions?”

“you think wrong.”

““I like how Y2 makes GM workers sound like poor Joe Lunchbucket who lives pay check to paycheck. The average wage of a GM worker, with benefits, is $100,000.”
Nigal
6:39:08 AM
11/12/08

“CEO salaries are none of my business IMHO. Good CEOs are hard to come by.
Nigal
7:55:20 AM
11/15/08

So CEO salaries aren't your business, but the employees' salaries are????
last edited: 11/17/08 11:13:30 AM”

“WK being cut off by the cops ;)

”

“Funny how that works, Ynami.”

“Ha ha!”

“So CEO salaries aren't your business, but the employees' salaries are????

Y2

Those who adjudge that the wages of union workers are too high would certainly see turnabout as fair play.”

“WK I love my Tacoma, got a great 4wd system like a Jeep. I really really liked my Element as well, but it couldn't tow very much which was the only reason I got rid of it. What kind of vehicle are you thinking about? Truck, SUV, car?”

“i'll sell you my geo for $12K”

“I love my new Ford Escape Hybrid. It is 4wd. I just love it.”

“So CEO salaries aren't your business, but the employees' salaries are????

If someone was being an intellectual child and trying to make an emotional case for helping poor CEOs who might lose their jobs I'd say the same thing about them too.”

“CEO salaries are still negotiated within the company between the employee (ceo) and the company, which allows a free market of employees.

Employee salaries are blanket strongarmed by unions, independent of individual worth.

Is this hard to understand?”

“But, but, but CEOs are rich. We must hate them.”

“Interesting.

Toyota Yaris achieves 67.2 MPG in MPG Marathon.


last edited: 11/18/08 3:45:27 AM”

“On the radio this morning they were talking about the dwindling chances for a Big 3 bail out. Bush refuses to use any part of the $700 billion financial system bailout money (rightly so) and the democrats absolutely refuse to use the $25 billion already approved to encourage automakers to make hybrid and alternate fuel vehicles.

So the automakers have access to $25 billion already and aren't taking the steps to utilize it? Why are we considering bailing them out?”

“Silly me Nigal - I just thought you were unable to look at this rationally due to your views on unions.

Guess a 'free thinker' like yourself doesn't have that problem.

If someone was being an intellectual child and trying to make an emotional case for helping poor CEOs who might lose their jobs I'd say the same thing about them too.”
Nigal
3:24:33 AM
11/18/08

Just stomp your foot and keep wailing about unions Nigal.

One day you'll be able to join up the dots.
last edited: 11/18/08 5:52:54 AM”

“Obviously you missed the whole point. I'll try and work up some graphs and simple charts later to help you understand. Do you prefer Crayon or marker?”

“Awww Nigal - is that what you really think?

You silly libbytarian.

The big issue is about the wider effect on the economy of dumping a couple of million people out of work at a time when the economy is already heading over the cliff edge.

And even looking at it in basic terms, where's the benefit to the taxpayer when it will cost more to let the car companies go under than it will to keep them afloat?

We've had eight years of ignoring reality to promote an ideology - and it's got us in this mess - and what are you calling for - 'stay the course'.”

“No, apparently the big issue is that your love of welfare out weighs your hate for corporations. :P”

“Ah yeah, 'welfare' - I thought that was yesterday's conservative buzz word. I thought we'd moved back to 'messiah' today.
last edited: 11/18/08 6:22:23 AM”

“We've had eight years of ignoring reality to promote an ideology blah, blah, blah
Y2


Beat that dead talking point horse a little more will ya? LOL!”

“Thing is NonC - when it's reality you can't ignore it - well, unless you're in the alternative planet called conservative world.

Oh.

But well done in raising the some important points there. You're so right.

But back with the grown-ups conversation - I think one thing that's also missing is the bigger picture.

We're going to see a global jump in car ownership in the next 10-20 years as the markets in Asia and South America, and even to some extent in Africa grow.

America can have a part in that - two of the big 3 have a proven record internationally - or they can just give up competing for trillions of dollars and let them go to Japan, Germany, Korea, and even France.

And for all the failings in the business plans of the big 3 - they are more exposed to the American market than other automakers, and so were always going to suffer the most in this downturn.

Sure they've been making trucks and SUVs, but that's what people wanted. There wasn't the political will here to tax fuel, and gas was cheap, so people wanted big powerful cars.

If one of the three hadn't delivered these in their dominant market, then profits would have gone down. This is the market - following where the dollars were - and the dollars were in trucks and SUVs.

They hadn't got this cash, then the board would have been replaced by people that did.

This dominance on SUVs and trucks only really exists in North America, in the rest of the world conditions were more suited to smaller vehicles. As America is not the home market for Toyota and Honda they were always going to be less exposed.”

“The big 3 can't compete financially. let them trim themselves back with bankruptcy then rebuild. Even in todays economy you still here the unions refusing to yield. let them both reap what they've sewn. And let the carmaker best situated to succeed feast on their cast-offs while the others rebuild.”

“Likely, if a Chapter 11 is filed they will be follwing it up by a Chapter 7 in a few months. No one wants to pay big bucks for any product whose company may or may not be around when service is needed. Regardless bailout or no bailout, I see no chance that the 3 will survive as they operate now. One choice will just prolong a subpar product.

Also, I keep hearing the press stopping short of saying GM bailout. While they will obviously be profiting from it, I wish they would be clear and say this is a UAW bailout. PC issue? Maybe I'm missing something.”

“Well it seems as though you might be. Unions are just one of a series of problems.

The collapse of the auto market due to the credit crisis and the collapse of big vehicle sales due to rising fuel costs would be the most immediate factors.

Unions and the reliance of the big 3 on the US markets, and a failure to get the right vehicles to market in a time of change are other factors.”

“Oh, or are we still pretending that the present problems have been caused by those silly lefties?”

“Is the UAW managing the auto makers as well as looking out for their members interests??”

“I wonder why most all the non union auto plants in the South are doing OK?

*snicker*”

““The Auto Worker's Union bailout is unstopable. Obamy and the demorats are owned by them.”
Stovie
9:54:44 AM
11/18/08


Also, I keep hearing the press stopping short of saying GM bailout. While they will obviously be profiting from it, I wish they would be clear and say this is a UAW bailout.

trailhound57
9:30:39 AM
11/18/08


OMG! too funny - I wonder what the subject on talk radio is today?”