enquiry based education vs. traditional education

“I hope this isn't considered feugo because I know this method is used across the spectrum of private schools and problem public too. My daughters have been and one is still in a school that uses it. Here are two "definitions" for it:

A simple definition of enquiry-based learning is to say that it is an approach characterised by 'learning through doing'. The student takes an active role in learning, by engaging with case studies or scenarios that call for sustained analysis and enquiry.

The work is very student-centred, since participants in EBL direct their own lines of enquiry and identify suitable methods and data. The process of enquiry encourages participants to draw on prior knowledge and experience; and since many of the exercises are drawn from 'real life', it enables students to relate EBL to the demands of their own contexts and professional commitments.

and

EBL describes an environment in which learning is driven by a process of enquiry owned by the student.

Starting with a ‘scenario’ and with the guidance of a facilitator, students identify their own issues and questions. They then examine the resources they need to research the topic, thereby acquiring the requisite knowledge. Knowledge so gained is more readily retained because it has been acquired by experience and in relation to a real problem.

It is essential that our students are educated for knowledge creation, lifelong learning and leadership. They will take on leading roles in their future working environments: directing change, asking important questions, solving problems and developing new knowledge.

My questions is this ...

If you have had kids go through a school with this style of education, how did it prepare them for their next school?”

“Isn't it inquire? Difference? Someone just stole my dictionary...”

“Dictionary.com
last edited: 1/09/08 11:30:35 AM”

“I think they are interchangeable, but you are correct that inquiry was probably the word I meant”

“Sounds Maria Montessorian.

It's all a buncha rhetoric, imo.
If the kids - in conjunction with attentive parents - want to learn, they'll learn.

If not, they won't.

I saw every "new" and "different" style there are during my schooling/teaching years.

It's all just old wine in new bottles...
last edited: 1/09/08 2:03:26 PM”

“I thought the purpose of education was to teach people stuff they don't know. If all we needed was to explore the universe as we see fit, there would be no need for schools at all. Most people would never learn history, algebra or proper english by "enquiry based" "education."

So I guess my thought is that after all the fun and games you need to find some kind of standard to bring them up to, like maybe an SAT prep course. Maybe first see if they can pass a GED, and then work on the SAT.
last edited: 1/10/08 4:45:58 AM”

“toe, thats what I tell my wife but she doesn't want to hear it from me. She loves the idea of inquery based learning. The problem for me is that sure you are teaching kids to think out a problem, do research to find resource information then determine the best answer from their perspective but you spend so much time on the process of how to learn at the expense of the actual accumulation of knowledge. How many kids are going to research what they didn't get taught at some other point in life? They won't.

And math is my biggest complaint, people have already done the work of developing the theory, lets not reinvent the wheel for every calculation, just teach kids how to use the developed theories to solve problems.”

“You can't just let the tried-and-true continue to work unbroken. I mean, academic can't-do's have to make a name for themselves somehow. Education is one of those fields where academics regularly chew up the proven methods of teaching and regurgitate a "new" paradigm that's mostly a rehash of what's already being done with an unnecessary focus on some particular part (in this case solving word problems, apparently). It gives them a something to do for a living.

It's kind of like Management Theory. TQM, 6 sigma, all that crap has been around in one form or another for 70+ years.”

“LOL...eduction is also supposed to teach "discipline" meaning you learn to do stuff you REALLY don't want to do.

I have actually had firefighters who told me "I don't want to do that" when I gave them an order. When I made it clear to them they HAD to do it....they almost cry.

As a result of the feel good education system we have a world full of kids who thing they should "Get something" for everything they do.

That is why volunteer organizations are sucking wind so bad for people.”

“I have actually had firefighters who told me "I don't want to do that" when I gave them an order. When I made it clear to them they HAD to do it....they almost cry.

Images from Deliverence going through my head.”

“This may come as a shock, and I don't know where she gets it from, but my 12 yo daughter likes to argue with her teachers if she thinks they are wrong. And the teachers tolerates it and "debates" back with her to the point that the classroom structure breaks down. WTF is that all about. At the first sign of disrespect or backtalk they should have sent her out of the classroom for a chat with the vice principle (who were the Lords of Discipline when I was in school).

Teachers should own the classroom not the kids.”

“I feel shocked! [/Pepper Brooks]”

“If I'm elected, believe me, I'll put "education" back in the schools where it belongs.
LOL.”

“You can't now hyway...I had a friend who is a teacher try to break up an assault. one kid jumped another and had knocked him out and was proceeding to kick him to death. My friend (a teacher) intervened. He got 3 days suspension, the kid...Momma done come down to da skool wit her 'tuuny an gonna SUE DA SKOOL!" so the Principal dropped everything...the only high part was as MOMMA and Junior were walking out.."Surprise surprise...law enforcement had picked THAT day to do a drug doggie sweep.

Momma is waitin on a court date, junior is in Detention....”

“We used to call that a "research project".”

“hyway - the school we send Tobias is very traditional - curriculum based learning.

Plus I also school Tobias at home for an hour each day (plus homework that he has on top of that) and for four hours on the weekend. My approach is a combination of EBL and guided learning.

Much of this learning surrounds what he isn't getting enough of, in my opinion, at school. Reading (well I am a firm believer that you can't have enough of this), nature and environmental studies (boreal forest wildlife, local birds, animals, plants, astronomy) and the finer arts (drawing, painting, sculpture, story development).

For example this weekend we are disecting sterilized owl puke pellets and building a weather station. Then I plan to teach him about the color wheel and mixing colors on a palette.

Am I pushing him too much? maybe... he is only 6 - but at this stage he loves the attention and wants to do these things so I take advantage of his thirst for this. Right now he is a little sponge and just soaks everything in. It is a tough and competitive world and I think having both types of learning is of benefit.

I am a huge stickler for respect... but I don't mind him telling the teacher what he knows if he doesn't cross the line and is polite about it.

In Junior Kindergarten (he was just 4 then) he put his hand up to correct the teacher. They were making lions with big manes out of construction paper. The girls were giving the lions girl names and Tobi informed his teacher that these were boy lions because they have manes.

Then last year in Senior Kindergarten they were learning about how catepillars turn into butterflies. The teacher referred to this as "transformation" and Tobias raised his hand and asked if that was the same as metamorphosis.

Anyway, my point is that he (so far) does this respectfully when/if it ever becomes a problem I'll have to be strict about it. I think a lot of that depends on how the teacher handles things too... and I have already had to get tough on him once...

For part of this year, before the move, he had a new teacher (meaning new to the career). I had to be hard on her because she was letting the kids get out of control and not communicating problems to the parents. My child was one of the ones acting up and he certainly got disciplined for it (we have a point system for earning privileges - so he loses points for electronics and such if he isn't behaving properly).

In any system of learning communication is key. Has the teacher expressed issue with your daughter's debating things? Is this something you should express concern to the teacher about?
last edited: 1/10/08 6:30:21 AM”

“I meant to mention that the acting up wasn't about correcting the teacher - he was horsing around in class and not listening. I would imagine somewhat typical for the age when you have a teacher who is green.”

“Hyway, sounds like your daughter is an independent thinker. That is a good thing. The teacher is failing in her job if she can't keep her classroom structure from breaking down. A good teacher will embrace your daughter's ability and need to question things.

In Virginia we have a similar EBL program for gifted children, but it is combined with the Standards of Learning program. Every student in Virginia must pass periodic exams to show they have learned what they are supposed to learn, i.e. basic math, history, reading skills, etc. If they don't pass, they do not move on to the next grade. The biggest problem with this program is that the teachers teach to the exam, but so far studies have shown that students are better prepared for the real world after graduation than they were before the Standards of Learning program.”

“there is no question that my daughter is in the wrong with the way she interacts with the teacher. My problem is with the way they are trying to correct it. This is 6th grade, they get centered, which is essentially a "time out" to think about things. Trust me, giving Brianna a few minutes to think about it will just give her more time to figure out how you are wrong and she is right. She is already upset that they are teaching her in 6th grade what she learned in 5th grade at her public school last year. She is insulted to be lumped in with the 5th graders (its a 5th/6th combo class that is supposed to allow for differing levels of accomplishment, but doesn't) and called by the name of the 5th grade class (great egrets - another silly styling - why not just call classes by their grade levels). Plus she thinks they don't assign enough homework.

The latest scenerio was when the teacher had them in circle time to discuss the process for teaching the next lesson (math) she was telling them how they will just be touching on the basics in 5th/6th grade then they will get more detailed in 7th/8th and then full indoctrination in High School. At this point Brianna spoke up to tell everyone that "no they won't because her sister (who just graduated from this middle school last year) told her that this school doesn't prepare them for high school educationally or socially."

Yikes! Talk about speaking your mind. Then she wouldn't back down from her position nor stop arguing about it. The whole lesson time was lost due to the teacher arguing with Brianna and Brianna getting loud, disrespectful and argumentative. Here, I fully blame Brianna for getting into this situation (and me for passing on my genes to her), but damn, who is in charge in that classroom? Why was the teacher in a heated dispute with a student. She should have clamped down right in the beginning, sent her out into the hall to wait for the appropriate disciplinarian to give her a chewing out.”

“I'm fininshing my master's in education, and the inquiry based learning is a method that is currently taught. I'm sure its been packaged and taught before too, just called something different.

I think good teachers already use these methods. Its just sort of an intuitive way to teach, I think.

Since I'm a science teacher, it makes total sense to me. Science is doing, not memorizing. So, let the kids "do" the experiment, and then let them figure out the concept, rather then telling them what they'll see during the experiment. First, the inquiry based learning is fun for the kids. Second, when they try to figure out the concept themselves after an exploration, they not only remember the information longer, but they understand the concept better. They can make connections to other concepts.

Math can be taught this way too. I had a math methods class taught by a middle school math (algebra) teacher. She basically created experiments for her kids to do, and then they figured out the formulas and graphs, etc. What I described above is based on the learning cycle, one type of inquiry based learning.

There are only a handful of kids who will truly learn from math problems out of the book. The rest do need hands on activities in order to understand the material.

Manipulatives are used in math classes to help kids understand concepts - peg boards and rubber bands help kids "see" shapes and explore height, length, area, etc. Fraction circles help many kids understand how to add/subtract fractions. Manipulatives are just another form of this inquiry based learning.

Like I said before, good teachers already do this. They know how to help kids learn, and will try many different methods to get them there. If a school is touting inquiry based learning, good for them. All that means is they encourage their teachers to use these methods, not that the teachers per say are any better there than anywhere else.

I think I'm done....for now. I'll keep checking this thread. I'm not sure I responded to the initial question, other than inquiry based learning helps with information recall, simply because the kids had an experience they can draw back on to remember.”

“Teach them the three Rs - they'll take it from there.”

“smiley girl - what are your thoughts on continuing the learning after school and on the weekends? do you think that pushes kids too much?”

“(and me for passing on my genes to her) - Hyway

It's not what you've passed to her, it's what you haven't. Don't blame the teacher for your failings. You've known for some time that your kid is a sh*t to the teacher, and all you've posted here indicates you're waiting for the teacher to take action. You should be on top of this, not waiting for it to play out.”

“dude, Brianna doesn't get a free ride. She pays the piper at home for this. No I don't blame the teacher for Brianna's behavior, but yes I do blame the teacher for loosing control of her classroom, essentially punishing the other kids, for my child's actions.”

“Wildchild, do you mean parents giving kids flashcards and whatnot do to learning? That I'm not so much for. But, playing card/board games with your kids teaches numbers and logic, showing them how to build something, taking them to the park to explore, etc. is all good. FInd learning opportunities in every day things.”

“Hyway.

I have no intention of getting involved in this or any other debate on education regimes, but you do ask the right question: 'How does it prepare you for the next school?' or college, or university, or trade, or life?

That is the question that ought to be asked first, but this happens rarely.”

“This method has been big in Europe for a while now.”

“In my incompletely informed opinion, these learning through doing or learning through enquiry methods can work really well. They can also be an excuse for slacking off an BSing a whole lot. For the methods to work you need actively engaged, intelligent, energetic, flexible and dynamic teachers. When you have that great things can happen, when you don't, the really fortunate kids (bright, engaged with self discipline and usually with involved intelligent parents) can teach themselves and do well.

I think you also can't be too dogmatic. I think some memorization is really important for kids - some things take rote learning. For example, learning multiplication tables. I went to a Anglican parochial school in Hong Kong in second grade and we drilled the multiplication tables. Everybody knew them by Christmas. These and other things that can be drilled provide tools for thought can be engaged in the more active learning methods.”

“I firmly believe that parents are as much responsible for their child's education as the teacher. I try to reinforce what the kids learn in school with real life examples.
"What did you learn in school today?"
"Fractions"
"Well, I just cut your apple into 4 pieces and I gave you 3 of them. How much of the whole apple do you have?"
"3/4"
"How much do I have?"
"1/4"

Along the same lines, I think its important to learn early on how your child best learns and choose the school that suits her style - which, incidentally, is why I'm for school vouchers. As long as they have learned what they should learn by the time they move on (reading, writing, etc), I don't see anything wrong with any of the teaching methods (granted, I'm no expert).”

“It's been dropped in Europe, Minnish. The last version was from Geneva where it did not work when the kids had to move on to higher education.

It was adopted here (Quebec, Canada) 13 years ago and has proved to be a disaster.

The Dept. of Education is talking about doubling the failures at standardised government exams because the colleges are going balistic.”