Obama for President 2008

“�im surprised at you ENS. click fuego bro!�
Roam Around
2:13:29 PM
1/10/08

He still hasn't figured out that FUEGO thing. You know he and bubba boor aren't very bright.”

“Yeah Prosecutor that's a real hoot. It may be true but we'll just call it a hoot to try and dismiss it or wave it off without proving you wrong. LOL! What a hoot! [sarcasm]”

“dismiss it or wave it off without proving you wrong

Are you kidding me? A cut n paste slanted list without a shread of proof to begin with? Ha! Do your own research.”

“I see that prosecutor likes to cut and paste on here without posting references to his clames just like he does on Backpacker.com. Nothing changes with you does it pros?”

“Lets have a look at some of the lies and half-truths prosecutor listed there. Man he gets creative.


In the U.S. more than 1.4 million acres has been designated U.S. wilderness lands, which is now at an all time high. It would take a backpacker a lifetime just to visit each acre added to the wilderness under Bush.

http://www.wilderness.org/Library/Documents/BushRecord.cfm
Good summary.

Wood inventory in the National Forests is increasing. Repeal of Roadless areas rule.

The largest marine sancuary in the world has been created.
Admirable, but in largely unused open ocean. Token gesture.

The air is the cleanest it has been since the EPA has been measuring air quality.
Little to do with the present admin, which has rolled back environmental work. States have taken up much of the work in the lack of action at a federal level.

25 million Afghans have been freed from tryanny. One thing to be agreed with. Focus taken off onto Iraq has allowed Taleban to return.

30 million Iraqis have been freed from tyranny, and Iraqi incomes have doubled.
650,000+ Iraqi dead as a result of the invasion. not surprising incomes have doubled, America has poured in trillions of dollars and now we hear stories of paying militants a daily rate not to cause trouble.

Brought freedom and democracy to the middle east. You're joking right?

The U.S. economy has kept expanding and is at an all time high GNP. As an economy should be over 8 years. Seems to have been built on a housing bubble due to lax regulation or morgage business. Many think recession is already going on.

The stock market hit all times highs. And now coming down again.

Unemployment is lower now than for the averages in the last 30 years. And now jumped to 5% - not bad but could rise further.

More Americans now own homes than at any time in the Nations history, and minority home ownership is at an all time high. How those foreclosure rates going there.

Two terrorist supporting regimes, Iraq and Afghanistan, are now terrorist fighting allies. Significant insurgencies now going on in Iraq and Afganistan. Iraq and botched post-war effort has acted as a huge recruitment drive for terrorism.

Over 3/4 of al Qaeda's leadership has been killed or captured.
Much of this has been replaced from the recruitment surge. bin Laden still elusive - resources diverted to Iraqi war.

Not a single foreign terrorist, despite a lot of trying, has been successful in killing a single American on U.S. soil since 9-11-01.
Good work by the security services and in protecting the home front. though resources have been frittered away on the failed Great Game going on in the MidEast.

Bush's policies got Kadaffi gave up his nearly complete nuclear weapons program started during the Clinton Administration.
Culmination of years of effort and to be balanced against developments in North Korea, Iraq, the Middle East in general. Once a leader in foreign policy, America now reacts. Enormous global support post 9/11 largely squandered.

Bush's policies got Iran to stop its nuclear bomb program, all without firing a shot. No it didn't. that's just wrong. Doubts as to how great the problem or threat ever was.

Buhs got North Korea to begin to disassemble their nuclear bomb facilities built during the Clinton administration.

After years of failed policies the administration finally admitted that it needed to talk to Axis of evil. Progress only made after Cheney's failed strategy with replaced by diplomacy.

Got the Patriot Act made permanent. Let the government spy on you.

The administration's No Child Left Behind helped push the ACT college entrance exam scores to the biggest increase in 20 years, and recorded the highest scores of any class in the last 15 years. Stifles individuality for purpose of passing tests.

Cut waste in government to be on track to balance the budget. Well unknown as of yet given prospect of recession. Squandered the surplus on giving tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires.

And, cut taxes.” Mainly for the rich - squeezing the middle classes and contributing to the latest Credit Crunch.”

“LMAO!

what a hoot!”

“wellllllll - Even Carl Rove couldn't reel off half of those with a straight face. ;o)”

“not anymore”

“Thank you Y2 for failing to rebut any of the Bush accomplishments. Your political spin does not impeach those achievements.”

“Lawyers certainly have a way of dressing up bullshlt.
last edited: 1/10/08 7:30:25 PM”

“High comedy, Ed.”

“I think they call it putting lipstick on a pig.”

“Those were rebuttles?”

“Looks like the public agree and Sarge and Prosecutor find themselves in a dwindling extremist minority.

”

“I am very proud of the fact that I don't base my beliefs on public opinion polls.

It's amazing to me that so many people do.”

“The point of the poll is to reflect public opinion, not guide it.”

“Yeah, I understand what the purpose of the poll is, but y2 used it in the context of trying to demonstrate we're in an unfavorable position by not agreeing with the majority.”

“Bullshlt

You are indeed in a dwindling extremist minority ..........dinosaurs, as it were.

Hopefully, y'all have been selected for extinction.................you had your shot and put this country in the toilet.
last edited: 1/10/08 8:39:56 PM”

“Name Calling = Deep Thinking For Democrats
LOL”

“(waves at Stovey!)”

“You are indeed in a dwindling extremist minority ..........dinosaurs, as it were.

Dinosaurs are now considered cool.”

“The thing I find strange about these opinion poles is that they show Bush as a president that the people have lost faith in yet he still dictates the direction of this country. If he is so disliked by the public then why can't a democratic controlled congress easily get their way? Why are we still in Iraq, why are we still in Afghanistan, why is this country still being led down the path Bush wants to lead it with a 30% approval rating and a democrat controlled congress.”

“Simple, the opinions are fed by Katie 'look at my sexy legs' Couric's agenda, not real isues the psident faces, like specifics in Iraq.

Somebody on tt just recently equated the killing of somebody, with an unforgiveable act. Notice, no circumstance was given. That's how Katie preaches - her biased agenda goes out at a very simplistic level. Reality is ignored.”

“Personally I love this thread. Here we have a thread that is about one of the democrat candidates and those who support him have the perfect opportunity to showcase why we should vote for him. But they spend all that time going with play #1 from the book, bash Bush. [2 thumbs up]”

“I love this thread too. Shows who the real "thinkers" are here. Post and rebut and post and rebut all from their personal political point of view with little or no fact (only more of the same "fact" from their side) and don't think the rest of us are smart enough to see it or figure it out. Best ones are the posts that start like this:

"I mean lets look at this honestly."

Then follows the personal belief or the left/right propaganda. Too f'n funny!”

“wikipedia has a nice feature that catalogues issues for a politician, I posted the link and asked if it was fair to that candidate (wikipedia is user controlled input, but it gives each side the same opportunity to enter input). No one discussed it accuracy or lack of it, they just talk about how he is not Bush nor Hillary.
last edited: 1/11/08 4:24:34 AM”

“wikipedia is extremely inaccuracte, and full of bias. If you taken that into consideration, it's worth beginning your investigations there. Just don't take it as gospel.

A better source - project vote smart”

“It is so nice to have the extreme liberals bashing Bush for his leadership that has objectively done the U.S. so well.

That is much more preferable to having people bash Clinton for cowering before bin Laden and not having the gut to order his execution or extradition when we had the chance.

But Obama says he will put his Muslim heritage to good use by meeting with Chavez, Kim Jong Il, and Mr. IAmANutJob in Iran. Will Obama offer then nuclear technology like Clinton offered Kim Jong Il nuclear technology to promise not to build any nuclear bombs?”

“TED NUGENT FOR PRESIDENT!”

“Ted Nugent should be selling used cars.”

“I thought he did sell used cars.”

“Non C - sorry, but I'm not sure what you're expecting there - but a little awareness and even google will allow you to look at all the points. Not sure if you expect me to write a 20 chapters on what is wrong with Prosecutor's links. I didn't go into more details as I assumed there was some awareness of the issues involved and why coming out and posting a list like that needs to be challenged. It also needs to be put in the context that the majority of Americans think the Administration is an abject failure. Every one of them can be so easily challenged and I look to outline briefly why that is.

But here:
1) His environmental points. You CAN'T be unaware of the criticism Bush has come under for his lack of action on the environment in all aspects.

2) Iraq - hardly news that he's come under criticism for his Iraq policy from Invasion to post war effort to long-term effects. Afganistan less so.

3) General foreign policy points - Just pointing out some of the perceived successes can easily been seen as failures.

4) Economic points - it's tough to continue much of the economic flag waving of recent years given the emerging economic problems relating to ALL the points prosecutor raised.

5) Security - Well there hasn't been an attack admittedly - but Patriot Act is also controversial.

6) No child left-behind - not to difficult to be aware of some of the criticism this comes under.

I made a assumption, possibly a false one, that you'd come to this with an interest in politics and that every point wouldn't need explaining as if you were coming to this afresh.”

“Sarge, for you, here it is - my use of the poll was to point out that the Prosecutor's list of administration successes needs to be placed against the backdrop where most people think his administration has been a failure. I wasn't trying to suggest anyone's opinions should be shaped by those polls.”

“Lots of "controversy" and "criticism".

Another instance of polling to see what is right, and what is wrong?

I'd hate to live that way. Think for yourself y2. Life isn't a popularity contest.”

“my use of the poll was to point out that the Prosecutor's list of administration successes needs to be placed against the backdrop where most people think his administration has been a failure

Once again, being in the majority opinion doesn't make one right. Saying his successes should be measured by public opinion is like giving up your ability to think.

Hitler was successful during his most evil period by your standards.”

“Y2, I say your poll may be accurate for what people say to pollsters, but not for how they really feel. If that poll was true then Bush would be worse than a lame duck president, he would be a non-factor in politics. yet, he still keeps the democrats at arms length and their agenda at a standstill. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't have the support of the country.”

“I agree with Hyway.

Here's an example ...

On the border issue - Bush (like all of our current government), is repeatedly polled as receiving "low marks".

When asked, people are "dissatisfied" with Bush on that matter.

What does that mean?

Well, lots of liberals are dissatisfied because he doesn't do enough to open up the borders.

Lots of conservatives are dissatisfied because he doesn't do enough to close the borders.

Therefore, almost everybody is dissatisfied - hense the very low marks.

Because he's compromised (sort of, and adding congress into the mix since Bush doesn't actually make the policy) ... he will get very low marks.

If he did one or the other, he'd still get very low marks from one group or the other.

By working to please the most people, it appears by polls he's displeasing everybody.

The fact is, everybody is having to give something up to get something in return.

There is the same amount of overall satisfaction in the country, as there would be if he only pleased one group or the other. It's just polls, as they're worded, cannot reflect that.”

“Y2, my post wasn't a cry for help or information. I know where to find it and I certainly wouldn't look here, lol. And even though I pulled that quote from one of your posts, I wasn't directing my observation at you alone. My main point was that side D has their sources that juuuust might skew facts to suit their constituents beliefs, and side R does the exact same thing. Somewhere in between lies the real truth. The posting of spin on here coupled with the rebuttal spin can be both comical and nauseating at the same time. It's the attempt to mask the bias that really makes me laugh.”

“errrr - but isn't bias the basis for all political discussion. If we all met in the middle there would be no 'fuego'.

I also specifically used works like controversy and criticism, thanks for pointing those out sarge - to show his points were open to question and interpretation - not to pretense to objectivity. There's almost certainly a thread for every one of them on here and we could argue all day, as we do on most days - it passes the time.

The point is that these are not 'facts' nor would i claim to them be. Like almost all aspects of politics they are opinion, with supporting evidence occasionally drifting in.

Prosecutor doesn't post on this side often, but when he does he likes to proclaim his views as being objective facts, when quite clearly they are not. They are opinions, just like every other post on here.
last edited: 1/11/08 6:30:29 AM”

“some of those looked an aweful lot like facts that could be disproved if not true. Like the
administration's No Child Left Behind helped push the ACT college entrance exam scores to the biggest increase in 20 years, and recorded the highest scores of any class in the last 15 years. Is that a fact or not? What you did was say what you didn't like about the fact, not disprove the fact.”

“Yes, bias IS the basis---I get all of that. I am ALSO saying that it's comical that the bias here is thrown around like it IS fact.


(all caps for emphasis)”

“I saw facts in his post.”

“I saw Elvis in a piece of toast.............multi-grain.”

“Will somebody f'n shoot me now? LOL!”

“Every Republican presidential candidate is running from the Bush Legacy as fast as their little feet will carry them.

With good reason.

You want the Democrats to control Congress for another forty years? � Keep the Bush Presidency fresh in people's memories.”

“again, how is it that Bush is accomplishing everything he wants if everyone disagrees with him?”

“Hi”

“Hyway, Bush has an evil conspiracy to only appease the oil-tycoons! LOL!”

“Stovie-sorry just practicing my double post skills.BUT SArGE JUMPED IN
last edited: 1/11/08 7:01:28 AM”