Obama for President 2008

“McCain will lose because he'll been seen as four more years of the same. I don't envy him having to explain away the Bush legacy.

the shine has come off these policies in the past few years.

Whether he's a uniter or a divider is up for debate, but his policies will just been seen as perpetuation the division of the past four years, which has seen the gulf between the have and have-nots widen. Even if you disagree with this it's now a comon perception amongst voters.

He'll also look like a very old guy come November.

Obama will also shift to the right after the primary race is finally over, there's a question as to whether he'll have time if this race continues.

McCain needs the economy and Iraq to improve dramatically just to have a chance.

The crap about substance just shows a lack of insight into the American political process. Right or wrong style has mattered more than substance (you do need to have at least some of both though) for both sides in at least the last 30 years, probably longer.”

“And all this style over substance stuff is really just an acknowledgment of how good a candidate Obama is.

the election won't be won by the party die-hards (though I can't see McCain motivating the religious base like bush did). It'll be won by those in the middle. And these people can go either way on policy.
last edited: 4/01/08 10:23:25 AM”

“Wow, scary thoughts.”

“Well Moonie - as much as you hate to think it, most of America is much more moderate than you. Where you see a lack of substance, they see a charismatic guy giving a good speech and telling them we need change.
It may lack 'substance', but it's political gold in the battle for the undecideds. Many of those undecideds are not political beings and won't even look for a hard-nosed examination of policies before they press their buttons to vote. Obama will push their buttons and they'll push the vote button.
last edited: 4/01/08 10:31:04 AM”

“Don't tell me what I think, y2. You have shown time again you have no clue about that.

My opinions are not based on other people's opinions. I'm disheartned that you base your arguments around popular opinion. I would hope that an American would be less influenced by others.”

“Y2, you overestimate the american intelligence, they think the last 8 years was peachy. Besides, if a dem or rep get elected, nothing will change except the medias point of view will move left or right while the corps and big organizations will continue to run this place into the ground.”

“the media might move right?

What is the precedent for that?”

“I agree with salebored if he would add welfare. I need to check my meds.”

“Come on Moonie - I've been spot on about just what you think. I know what you're going to say before you say it - you're actually incredibly predictable. Though I seem to have forgotten you're the last of the free thinkers.

But I'll stop there as I know you don't want to lose this name and have to work through the other list of trolls.

And I make saleboard right. I think Obama is the most likely of the three to change things, but may well back off like everyone else does.

He would though, be a fool to try to take on the real power base before he gets elected.
last edited: 4/01/08 11:30:48 AM”

“Yeah, Osama says "change" a lot - but doesn't have any real plans, just "goals". I guess his change will be to not have a plan.”

“That just makes him tough for any oponent to nail down. It's a deliberate tactic and it works.

See McCain went out and made a dumb speech on the economy the other day. He nails down his position on the Credit Crisis seven months before the election with no idea what is yet to drop. Obama goes out and makes an speech on the economy that may have lacked substance, but knows it won't come back to bite him in the ass in November.

It's smart politicing and is another reason he's going to win.”

“March 31, 2008

Watergate-Era Judiciary Chief of Staff: Hillary Clinton Fired For Lies, Unethical Behavior

As Hillary Clinton came under increasing scrutiny for her story about facing sniper fire in Bosnia, one question that arose was whether she has engaged in a pattern of lying.



The now-retired general counsel and chief of staff of the House Judiciary Committee, who supervised Hillary when she worked on the Watergate investigation, says Hillary’s history of lies and unethical behavior goes back farther – and goes much deeper – than anyone realizes.



Jerry Zeifman, a lifelong Democrat, supervised the work of 27-year-old Hillary Rodham on the committee. Hillary got a job working on the investigation at the behest of her former law professor, Burke Marshall, who was also Sen. Ted Kennedy’s chief counsel in the Chappaquiddick affair. When the investigation was over, Zeifman fired Hillary from the committee staff and refused to give her a letter of recommendation – one of only three people who earned that dubious distinction in Zeifman’s 17-year career.



Why?



“Because she was a liar,” Zeifman said in an interview last week. “She was an unethical, dishonest lawyer. She conspired to violate the Constitution, the rules of the House, the rules of the committee and the rules of confidentiality.”



How could a 27-year-old House staff member do all that? She couldn’t do it by herself, but Zeifman said she was one of several individuals – including Marshall, special counsel John Doar and senior associate special counsel (and future Clinton White House Counsel) Bernard Nussbaum – who engaged in a seemingly implausible scheme to deny Richard Nixon the right to counsel during the investigation.



Why would they want to do that? Because, according to Zeifman, they feared putting Watergate break-in mastermind E. Howard Hunt on the stand to be cross-examined by counsel to the president. Hunt, Zeifman said, had the goods on nefarious activities in the Kennedy Administration that would have made Watergate look like a day at the beach – including Kennedy’s purported complicity in the attempted assassination of Fidel Castro.



The actions of Hillary and her cohorts went directly against the judgment of top Democrats, up to and including then-House Majority Leader Tip O’Neill, that Nixon clearly had the right to counsel. Zeifman says that Hillary, along with Marshall, Nussbaum and Doar, was determined to gain enough votes on the Judiciary Committee to change House rules and deny counsel to Nixon. And in order to pull this off, Zeifman says Hillary wrote a fraudulent legal brief, and confiscated public documents to hide her deception.



The brief involved precedent for representation by counsel during an impeachment proceeding. When Hillary endeavored to write a legal brief arguing there is no right to representation by counsel during an impeachment proceeding, Zeifman says, he told Hillary about the case of Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, who faced an impeachment attempt in 1970.



“As soon as the impeachment resolutions were introduced by (then-House Minority Leader Gerald) Ford, and they were referred to the House Judiciary Committee, the first thing Douglas did was hire himself a lawyer,” Zeifman said.



The Judiciary Committee allowed Douglas to keep counsel, thus establishing the precedent. Zeifman says he told Hillary that all the documents establishing this fact were in the Judiciary Committee’s public files. So what did Hillary do?



“Hillary then removed all the Douglas files to the offices where she was located, which at that time was secured and inaccessible to the public,” Zeifman said. Hillary then proceeded to write a legal brief arguing there was no precedent for the right to representation by counsel during an impeachment proceeding – as if the Douglas case had never occurred.



The brief was so fraudulent and ridiculous, Zeifman believes Hillary would have been disbarred if she had submitted it to a judge.



Zeifman says that if Hillary, Marshall, Nussbaum and Doar had succeeded, members of the House Judiciary Committee would have also been denied the right to cross-examine witnesses, and denied the opportunity to even participate in the drafting of articles of impeachment against Nixon.



Of course, Nixon’s resignation rendered the entire issue moot, ending Hillary’s career on the Judiciary Committee staff in a most undistinguished manner. Zeifman says he was urged by top committee members to keep a diary of everything that was happening. He did so, and still has the diary if anyone wants to check the veracity of his story. Certainly, he could not have known in 1974 that diary entries about a young lawyer named Hillary Rodham would be of interest to anyone 34 years later.



But they show that the pattern of lies, deceit, fabrications and unethical behavior was established long ago – long before the Bosnia lie, and indeed, even before cattle futures, Travelgate and Whitewater – for the woman who is still asking us to make her president of the United States.”

“I'm glad you're confident, but your confidence doesn't sway me. What would sway me is him putting forth realistic solutions to the problems he says he's going to fix ... oh, and having some experience running something in government. He's running too early - should have waited 8-16 more years.

I've never heard anybody admit that they're voting for somebody because they are good at "politicing". Usually people are against that - and prefer substance. At least you're honest about it.”

“Fox is rite of right already. The corps won't stop until every person on earth has a 24-7 source of advertizing in front of them, so each and everyone will know the wonderful things that come when someone else does all your thinking for you. I can't spell Wellfair.”

“Well I'm not even singing from the Obama hymn sheet. I'm not suggesting you or anyone else vote for him, but I do think he'll win - and in presidential election terms, will win fairly easily.

I mean lets look at this, he's beating the Clintons in their own party which they've dominated for 15+ years.
last edited: 4/01/08 11:52:09 AM”

“so you say - What are the lottery numbers?”

“Nice story , but not for my vegetarian self, I'd keep the trap on the shelf.”

“obama is having an easy time of it because his battle with Clinton is about character and not policy. without the republicans to hate the media find it easy to demonize hillary and canonize Obama. Hell, most anybody would look of high character when compared to clinton.

The policy issues are barely being touched on since their policies are essentially identical. Most people don't know how liberal Obama is, but they will when the real election starts. It will be his own words and potential policies that will sink him. The country might be ready for a change, but they aren't ready to be socialists”

“Oh Forgot, the sky did fall , but I caught it and put it back without conferring.”

“obama is having an easy time of it because his battle with Clinton is about character and not policy. without the republicans to hate the media find it easy to demonize hillary and canonize Obama.

hyway nailed it - Confident Obama supporters, take note.”

“The country might be ready for a change, but they aren't ready to be socialists”

That socialist net under Bear Stearns wasn't enough , man, I agree.”

“obama, his plan, and where he stands on the issues: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

if you think this is not clear, complete, and concise perhaps you would show us all an example of a politician running for president that has done better?”

“I've commented on that in the past, to summarize, first off, those are "goals", not "plans", or "solutions". Secondly, negotiating with Iran, etc., is not a viable option.”

“nope. there is a plan there but clearly you are unwilling to read it.”

“.
last edited: 4/01/08 2:02:10 PM”

“Yogisan, unfortunately, you are incorrect. I have read the reference you linked to, but I see no plan.

Let's get to that, but first, please comment on this misleading introduction to his policies.

“I am in this race to tell the corporate lobbyists
that their days of setting the agenda in
Washington are over. I have done more than any
other candidate in this race to take on lobbyists
– and won. They have not funded my campaign,
they will not get a job in my White House,
and they will not drown out the voices of the
American people when I am president.”
-- Barack Obama, Speech in Des Moines, IA, November 10, 2007

Isn't that a bit misleading, since some of his largest donors are heads of oil and gas companies? Also, no presidential candidate takes money from the companies since 1907, isn't that misleading?”

“In his "plan for a healthy America", where is his plan of how he is going to pay for it?”

“Taxes
Obama will cut income taxes by $1,000 for working families to offset the payroll tax they pay.

Did we just hear a few weeks of the liberals complaining when Bush did something similar this year? Are they okay with it when Obama does it?”

“BARACK OBAMA’s Plan
Provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief
Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150
million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new “Making Work Pay” tax credit of up to
$500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The “Making Work Pay” tax credit will completely eliminate
income taxes for 10 million Americans.

Really? How? What's the "plan" to pay for it?


I'll let you catch up, then we can hit some more.”

“As you read each of his "plans", ask yourself "how is he going to pay for it". As you answer "raise taxes", ask yourself, "considering the 'plans' in this 64 page booklet, am I willing to pay the taxes for these things?"”

“I would have thought ending the foreign policy farce would have helped - what we looking at now, two trillion?

What is that tree - part of Dick Cheney's pension fund?

Borrow borrow borrow, spend spend spend.
last edited: 4/01/08 2:51:33 PM”

“I mean how much has Donny and Dick's war cost now?

After each policy blunder from the right, ask yourself this - who is making a profit from it, and who is paying for it.

Just remember - stay the course!
last edited: 4/01/08 2:50:42 PM”

“Maybe that tree is part of the Bear Stearns bailout? don't worry, if it blows over your taxes will help the GOP plant another one.

Maybe it's party of the decor in the (former) Countrywide boardroom?”

“y2, I think you may have adopted Obama's campaign speech, bust on Bush, but don't offer real answers. I know it might be exciting to say that Bush will be gone, and therefore things will change, but, and maybe it's just me, I'd like to know HOW they're going to change.”

“The point is that those advocating conservative policy have absolutely no credibility when talking about fiscal responsibilty.”

“When you advocate for the market above all else then you have to let things wash themselves out every now and again.

but the consequences for America are too great - so we don't let it happen.”

““The point is that those advocating conservative policy have absolutely no credibility when talking about fiscal responsibilty.”

Who? Every person who advocates conservative policy has no credibility?

Why are you using classic strawman arguments? I'm talking to you, not "those". I am saying that he has NO plan - period. If his plan is to just magically pay for everything anybody wants, then he's going to have to raise taxes to some crazy amount.”

“Obama is getting 80%-90% of the black vote. If Clinton comes out of the convention as the Democrat's choice how many blacks will vote for her?

After the riots of course.”

“lol - not quite grasped the whole strawman concept yet huh?”

“touche - I meant to say ad hominem. So again ... enough with the fallacies. Let's talk politics.”

“Hardline conservative economic theories fall apart when confronted with reality and events.”

“That's a fine statement, y2.

If you would like to finally talk about Obama's policies, and not spend all your time saying "the other guys suck", maybe we can get somewhere in this discussion. Just a thought.

You are defending a man who believes that the incomes people make should be equally distributed amongst everyone. This kind of philosophy has never been successful. Capitalism, on the other hand (back when we actually had it) worked better than any other system. So talking about "hardline policy", and ignoring the "socialist policy" of Obama, isn't going to do this discussion much good, will it?”

“your obama defense reminds me of this....

The new rebel is a skeptic, and will not trust anything...[but] therefore he can never really be a revolutionary. For all denunciation implies a moral doctrine of some kind....Therefore the modern man in revolt has become practically useless for all purposes of revolt. By rebelling againt everything he has lost his right to rebel against anything....There is a thought that stops thought. That is the only thought that ought to be stopped.

Chesterton”

“Not watching Jesse Ventura on Larry King? Don't worry you've heard it from me too many timesanyway.”

“like i said. if you don't think it's a good plan that's fine but it is a plan. show me a politician running for president that has done better.”

“yogisan - goals are not plans. Goals become plans when you add the 'how'. How is he going to pay for these things?”

“He has a plan for NASA too, but it doesn't mesh with his speeches where he has said that he will pay for his $18 billion education plan by delaying the NASA Constellation program five years (which probably will mean more than that).”