Old Man McCain

“I don't think one will find any tolerance of organized labor(unions, for y'all too ignorant to make the connection) in a fascist state.

After all, fascism is corporatism.......the merging of state and corporate power.

Comparing fascism to organized labor is either ignorance or willful ignorance.”

“they act the same way and that is easy to see from budha's definition. Hell no a fascist state wouldn't allow a union within it no more than a Union would allow mini unions to operate among its own members to dictate to the Union bosses what the bosses should do.”

“total^@$&$*& ...no, totalit&%#*#...no, totalitari@$%&@$.....I give up. All for one and none for all, hope you like it without Ron Paul.

When they build the big road which will cut Tejas in half with all Mexican companies, materials and labor, but all US taxpayer borrowed funding, maybe you'll be able to spell that word above for me.”

“Yep, I've done collegiate study too. It wasn't my major but was a big interest for a time. What I found was that there wasn't a solid, agreed upon definition. Some defined it by saying what it isn’t. Other are simply descriptive, focusing on characteristics of one fascist regime or regimes. The problem with that is by your definition it must include the Communist regimes of Castro and Stalin and Communism is supposed to be the direct opposite of fascism. I believe it was Alardice (sp? not sure) said about this defintion issue that (paraphrase it's been years since I read him) “we have agreed to use the word without agreeing how to define it.”

So you build up your scholarly credentials and you give me a definition that is a mishmash of concepts cobbled together via Wikipedia?

I reject your definition as an incomplete and inaccurate collection of concepts.

BB, you have to admit that you typically refer to Nazi Germany when you refer to the fascists. And many of the positions of that flavor of fascism (as put forward above) is indeed shared by the DNC and the modern American progressive movement. The major difference is that the American approach was far softer than the German approach and lacked the horrific genocidal aspect. (thank God)

Your similarities are superficial and are hardly evidence of a fascist state. Based on your reasoning I could make that case that you are a black gay communist and it would hold as much weight.

No, I don't think Democrats are fascists but they do share similar stances in common with the poster child of fascism. I point this out not to insult my democratic friends but to point out the absurdity of the fascist charge.

Mostly I think that "fascist" has become a valueless term only used to disparage and discredit opposition and shut down civil discourse. (Kinda like the fascists did.)

I accept that your side of the fence wants what is best for our nation, I accept that we have different visions of what that is, I also accept that your motivations are not based in malevolence. I would appreciate the same courtesy.
last edited: 2/20/08 5:12:14 PM”

“The trouble is hpm is that your original post on the matter just take selective elements of the policies of the Nazi regime while ignoring most of the key ones.

Because of some standard things that go on in countries you could use this method to tie fascism to almost any political movement in history - which has also been done time and time again.

It sounds like just another of those e-mails that does the rounds using sweeping statements while ignoring the facts.

While it's wide of the mark to tie the Republicans to fascism - saying this - based on their own platforms and positions it can't be denied that Democrats are the intellectual heirs of the fascists.”
humanpackmule
12:27:23 PM
2/20/08

is bordering on the ridiculous.”

““I don't get all the "I'm leaving the U.S. if X wins" histrionics. If they are so irrational do us all a favor and leave now.”
humanpackmule

I agree...I have heard this crap way too much. If you don't like it because some political party gets elected that you are not a member of...PLEASE LEAVE. Go to some 3rd world country and become an ex-patriot...you will be back in less than a year.”

“In fact HPM - a little research seems to suggest that your posting there is sourced almost entirely from the right-wing blogosphere.

You can't go through a list of policies you don't like, (more features of a centralized state than a political therory) and ignore the other key ideas behind fascism.
last edited: 2/20/08 5:39:57 PM”

“Well now we have McLain not MyCane.”

“Y2, my key point is that throwing around the fascist label by either side is ridiculous.
last edited: 2/20/08 5:47:36 PM”

“I make you right HPM - just as the rampant misuse of the socialist and commie labels is also wide of the mark - I don't see it stopping any time soon though.
last edited: 2/20/08 5:50:44 PM”

“Agreed.
I'm glad you see the point I was trying to make.”

“you two should get a room ;)”

“I love you too Hyway.




Whore.”

“The nice thing about wikipedia is they footnote thier definitions:

For example: "Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, autocracy and opposition to political and economic liberalism.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]"

1. Eatwell, Roger. 1996. Fascism: A History. New York: Allen Lane.
Roger Eatwell's credentials

2. Griffin, Roger. 1991. The Nature of Fascism. New York: St. Martin�s Press. On "populism, see p. 26: "Fascism is a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism".
Roger Griffin's credentials

3. ^ Nolte, Ernst The Three Faces Of Fascism: Action Fran�aise, Italian Fascism National Socialism, translated from the German by Leila Vennewitz, London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1965.
Nolte's credentials

4. Paxton, Robert O. 2004. The Anatomy of Fascism. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, ISBN 1-4000-4094-9
Paxton's credentials

5. Payne, Stanley G. 1995. A History of Fascism, 1914-45. Madison, Wisc.: University of Wisconsin Press ISBN 0-299-14874-2

6. "populism," See: Fritzsche, P. 1990. Rehearsals for Fascism: Populism and political mobilization in Weimar Germany. New York: Oxford Univ. Press.

7. "collectivism." Encyclop�dia Britannica. 2007. Encyclop�dia Britannica Online. 12 January 2007 "Collectivism has found varying degrees of expression in the 20th century in such movements as socialism, communism, and fascism."; Grant, Moyra. Key Ideas in Politics. Nelson Thomas 2003. p. 21; De Grand, Alexander. Italian Fascism: Its Origins and Development. U of Nebraska Press. p. 147 "Nationalism, statism, and authoritarianism culminated in the cult of the Duce. Finally, collectivism was important...Despite general agreement on these four themes, it was hard to formulate a definition of fascism..."


Here is a NYT view on Paxton's book - "One of Paxton's main contributions is to focus less on the ''Duce myth'' and the ''F�hrer myth'' and more on the indispensable ''conservative complicities'' behind the fascist takeovers. Paxton debunks the consoling fiction that Mussolini and Hitler seized power. Rather, conservative elites desperate to subdue leftist populist movements ''normalized'' the fascists by inviting them to share power. It was the mob that flocked to fascism, but the elites who elevated it. ''At each fork in the road, they choose the antisocialist solution,'' Paxton writes. King Victor Emmanuel III responded to Mussolini's ''gigantic bluff,'' the Black Shirt march on Rome, not by imposing martial law but by offering him the prime ministership. And in 1933 it was the ambitious German Catholic aristocrat Franz Von Papen, believing he would be the one who gained power, who arranged the deal that gave Hitler the chancellorship.

I welcome your sources HPM.

But, I don't think that fascism as a polity has anything to do with DNC Party ideals here in the USA. In fact, you constantly hear the drum-beat of the DNC being compared to a socialist party, or, by the truely uneducated, the communist party. Fascists were not only opposed to those polity's, Paxton believes that the elite actually brought the fascist polity into power due to the fear of those forms of government.

Mussolini wrote in "The Doctrine of Fascism":
"Fascism is therefore opposed to that form of democracy which equates a nation to the majority, lowering it to the level of the largest number.... We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right', a Fascist century."

Tending to the "right" is in his own words. The definition of "right" and "left" has not changed.”

“I'm not sure that it's a given that moderate Clinton supporters will necessarily vote for Obama.

So, the idea that a big Democratic turnout in the primaries necessarily turns into an Obama rout in November is just a guess right now.

It's probably a good guess, but I think that McCain matches up well with Obama.”

“BB please don't tell me my foray into Swiftian absurdity is lost on you.

LOL! Turn on Glen Beck it's being discussed right now.”

“McCain matched up well with Bush too. All Obama has to do is tell the truth and point out the many, many areas where McCain and Bush were on the same page over the past 7 years. It was most of the time.”

“LOL! Turn on Glen Beck it's being discussed right now.�

No WAY!”

“BTW - I ain't labeling you dude, I'm labeling the Republican Party.”

“I didn't think they meant the take the term GOP literally.

The two do look like they represent past and future.”

“In absurdity is found truth and I don't think that it's an accurate label by any stretch BB. I can take elements of any political movement and draw convenient comparisons.”

“scandel erupts in the McCain camp!

Now we know why Huckabee was sticking around.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/us/politics/21mccain.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
last edited: 2/20/08 7:10:19 PM”

“LMAO! Scandelous!”

“Holy poop! I was wondering why none of the Obamaites were on the Obama thread. They're all over here baggin' on Grandpa.

I'm warming a little bit to McCain because he's planning on cutting corporate taxes. Personally I think in order to turn this economy around we should do away with the corporate tax all together.”

“I have absolutely NO faith in the American public to make the right choice. After eight year of being subjected to the buffoonery of the current dimwit, what are we to expect? Suddenly the American populous is going to have some sort of epiphany and make the right choice? You woulda thought that it was pretty freakin' clear FOUR YEARS AGO. I was totally dimayed and still am.
roseymonster
2:51:25 PM
2/20/08


Yep, pretty much sums up what most people dislike about the liberal elitists who think they know better than everyone else: if you don't see things the way we see things, you're just not as smart as we are. Probably shouldn't be allowed to vote either.

Just leave everything to them. They'll take care of us because we really need that.”

“Why is it so many people view Americans as trailer trash, Jerry Springer watching hillbillies? No faith in Americans? This is the country that changed the history of the world in a span of time that is equivalent to the blink of an eye. We are the nation that attracts the best of the rest of the world. We can do anything. That is of course if we can keep the government out of our way, out of our lives and out of our pockets.”

“Note the many similarities of ideals between the republican party and the fascist party, including, but not limited to:

1. National Unity based on ethnic attributes. The republican party and thier constituents are those who want to round up mexicans and ship them out.

2. National Unity based on cultural attributes. The republican party and thier voters frequently bash and demean the gay and lesbian community, fighting to exclude thier rights, in order to gain party unity.

3. National Unity based on racial attributes - Rush Limbaugh, Trent Lott, etc., etc. Look at the supporters of the RNC, the vast majority are homogenous whitebread men.

4. National Unity based on religiuis attributes - Uh, christianity. The fact that the Axis of Idiots has to keep emphasizing the "Heussein" in Barak Obama's name is evidence of this.

5. the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, autocracy and opposition to political and economic liberalism. - HPM, there is no need for an explanation here.


Just thought I'd highlight the bull$sit parts that only parrot liberal democrat assumptions/speculations and talking points. No true support there at all. Nice try though”

“I've been wanting to get this book...



I've heard a few interviews with the author and it is startling how liberals don't even know their progressive roots. Both Mussolini and the Nazi party used to cite FDR's book as a example of how fascism is the way to go. Mussolini was a real hero of the early progressives.”

“I'm warming a little bit to McCain ... - Nigal

Actually, and this is the honest to goodness truth, I am to. The reason? Listening to the talking points of people like ENS and BB. They've said enough things that are making me reconsider than I'm seriously considering NOT voting 3rd party this time. Some of the things that they STRESS that McCain would do (to demonize him), are things I'd want him to do. LOL”

“If the shoe fits, wear it.”

“LMFAO - what it take, like two days for the excuses to start so he can go back on his word and support McCain?

The funny thing is there's a whole industry out there trying to demonize the Democrats into some sort of commie organization - yet Republicans get all up-in-arms when someone dare suggest they are fascists. HPM - you know the fascist/liberal links there is BS, but you know there are morons out there and even on here that buy into that. It'll be repeated a million times on the internet and the biggest idiots will claim they're talking 'facts' and telling people to look at history.

There are holocaust deniers out there, David Irvine for examples, who if read in isolation, put a valid case that the events in WW2 never took place. You ignore key points and you can make history prove anything.

NonC - where are you pointing all the crap out when people on here are constantly ranting about socialism - like on nearly every political thread on here?
last edited: 2/21/08 5:26:24 AM”

“Who went back on their word, idiot?

Funny, speaking of going back on their word, you said what, two days ago, that you were putting me on ignore?

LOL!

-3”

“Demonization goes both ways.

As far as the fascist thing just take a look at the 25 points of the Nazi party. Half could be ascribed to the Dems and half to the Repubs. Hardly damning evidence of a fourth Reich.

The term is a null value in context of the current American political landscape. The shoe does not not fit and not only that, it is being shoved on our hands.

And frankly no, I am not beholden to rectify every slight where ever they may lie. I just don't have the time or interest. I speak up when my threshold is reached.”

“NonC - where are you pointing all the crap out when people on here are constantly ranting about socialism - like on nearly every political thread on here?
last edited: 2/21/08 7:26:24 AM�
Y2
7:25:16 AM
2/21/08


The only one ranting about socialism on here is XL, and I give him plenty of crap. I don't consider "silly libbies" or "LOL" rantings about socialism.”

“LOL

The only one ranting about socialism on here is XL, and I give him plenty of crap. I don't consider "silly libbies" or "LOL" rantings about socialism.�
Nonconformist
8:07:10 AM
2/21/08

While libbies scream about the now faleshood of Global Warming...apparently the threat of Global Socialisim is lost on you....BUMMER”

“It's no less true simply because they don't like the comparison.”

“I have absolutely NO faith in the American public to make the right choice. After eight year of being subjected to the buffoonery of the current dimwit, what are we to expect? Suddenly the American populous is going to have some sort of epiphany and make the right choice? You woulda thought that it was pretty freakin' clear FOUR YEARS AGO. I was totally dimayed and still am.
roseymonster
2:51:25 PM
2/20/08

Sounds like something Michelle Obama would say. Though I've seen it over and over, I still am ocassionally surprised at how much some liberals loathe America. Roseymonster's liberal elitism is America at its ugliest. No wait, Tilt is worse.”

“Um....yes it is.”

“LOL”

“faleshood of Global Warming...should be capitalised, being Robin of Sherwood Forests sister and all.”

“The only one ranting about socialism on here is XL, and I give him plenty of crap.

I rant about it quite a bit. It's a broken system and many do not see it slowly creeping into this political race. I believe it was Ronald Reagan who said that a government big enough to give you everything is a government big enough to take everything from you.

The thing I can't understand is how many think that smaller government and less governmental involvement in our lives is a bad thing.”

“I think that depends on how you define "fair".”

“The groups of voters with the highest turnout receive checks from the social taxpayers pool. Da Gomint juss print mo an mo.”

“I believe it was Ronald Reagan who said - Nigal

LOL”

“McLain-Foolsgold Silly coniberalatives.”

“Here's a freakin' newsflash: �"McCain Says Report on Lobbyist Not True" � LOL”

“That made me wilt , but thank you Tilt.”

“Roseymonster's liberal elitism is America at its ugliest.

Now, who here is willing to admit they voted for the village idiot? Come on now, don't be shy!! And the excuses come a rollin' in...”

“The thing I can't understand is how many think that smaller government and less governmental involvement in our lives is a bad thing.

Newsflash: the govt. is the biggest its ever been under...G.W.! Shocker!!!”

“At the rate we're going, we'll never really know what less gov really is, so states the DGRC (department of gum wrapper control).”